Chapter One of the TTC

[ChiDragon]

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

' That which contains the foundation of order, yet unseen . ' 

 

or .... ( since you are allowing 'grok'  , then I am allowing )    '  warp storm  '   . 

 I didn't choose the word 'chaos'. It was just a copycat thing. 

Big bang was by an explosion of an atom. Laotze said Tao is formed by something spinning until it comes into shape. At the time of my translation, I didn't like the word 'chaos' was used. My English wasn't that good at the time.

Perhaps, we could work together on this one to come up with something better!

Edited 12 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

44 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It has to fit the meaning of the whole message, other than the characters.

 

That seems a bit of a  'chicken and egg ' issue  ? 

[ChiDragon]

12 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Hmmmm ... 'glass'  is one thing . 

 

'A glass' is another thing . 

 

Listen here you lot !   Dont do to English what you are doing to  TTC !  

 

  

Yes, I need to do a lot of rebuttals.  

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

That seems a bit of a  'chicken and egg ' issue  ? 

For non-natives or natives too. perhaps.

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Isn't a glass made with glass?

 

Not necessarily  ;  

 

It could be a crystal glass    . 

 

Do I really need to explain it to you ?   Maybe I do . 

 

A glass  is curved (other wise it won;pt hold water    )  , this causes refraction and  the light passing through it - from behind it , gets refracted so it looks different from its background .

 

Glass itself  can be a flat sheet that does not refract the light  and allows the light behind it to pass straight through it , making it seem as if the glass is not there . 

 

Too hard ?   Try this then ; 

 

Flat glass ; 

 

 

curved glass ; 

 

 

A glass;

 

 

 

Through the looking glass ; 

 

[Nungali]

20 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 I didn't choose the word 'chaos'. It was just a copycat thing. 

Big bang was by an explosion of an atom.

 

It was ?    That would be a little bang . 

 

maybe you mean  '  The Big Bang '   - in English  definite articles and   capitols do matter    

 

20 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Laotze said Tao is formed by something spinning until it comes into shape. At the time of my translation, I didn't like the word 'chaos' was used. My English wasn't that good at the time.

 

I have just accepted that ; what is behind the formation of things can not be ordinarily seen . 

 

20 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Perhaps, we could work together on this one to come up with something better!

 

That depends on what  previously held concepts you want to translate it into    

[ChiDragon]

On 12/24/2025 at 4:30 PM, ChiDragon said:

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale

 

[Nungali]

19 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

For non-natives or natives too. perhaps.

 

For natives , perhaps . 

 

For non natives ?   No.    Why ?  Because 'non natives'  know dinosaurs laid eggs loooooong before there were chickens    

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

 

Cobie must love this one  ! 

[ChiDragon]

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

That depends on what  previously held concepts you want to translate it into 

 

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Laotze said Tao is formed by something spinning until it comes into shape

How about this one? Let's do it without 'chaos'.

Edited 12 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, Nungali said:

The Big Bang '   - in English  definite articles and   capitols do matter  

 

 

Yes, I know exactly what you meant. 
It is better to go to the capitol to do the Big Bang. 

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Cobie must love this one  ! 

 

14 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale

Haha...That was meant for you!

[Nungali]

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

How about this one? Let's do it without 'chaos'.

 

But did he really say that .   'Something spinning  before it comes into shape'  . 

 

Chaos is fine , I think ... IF one understands the modern implications of the word .

 

The term chaos refers to a state of complete disorder and confusion, but its meaning varies significantly across different disciplines, from science and mythology to modern software . 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

But did he really say that .   'Something spinning  before it comes into shape'  . 

Chaos is fine , I think ... IF one understands the modern implications of the word .

The term chaos refers to a state of complete disorder and confusion, but its meaning varies significantly across different disciplines, from science and mythology to modern software . 

 

Yes, line 1 did has an implication of that.
Chapter 25 Invisible Tao
1. 有物混成


1. Tao was formed with things blended together.(is)

1. There was a thing formed by chaos; (was)

 

Edited 11 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

33 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

 

But did he really say that .   'Something spinning  before it comes into shape'  . 

 

= 

 

' Blinded  together  '    ? ? ? 

 

Dude !  Sort the English out first then maybe approach the Chinese ! 

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

But did he really say that .   'Something spinning  before it comes into shape'  . 

 

= 

 

' Blinded  together  '    ? ? ? 

 

Dude !  Sort the English out first then maybe approach the Chinese ! 

 

 

 

 

I revised see if it make any sense to you.

[Nungali]

9 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, line 1 did has an implication of that.
Chapter 25 Invisible Tao
1. 有物混成
2. 先天地生
3. 寂兮寥兮
4. 獨立而不改
5. 周行而不殆
 

1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
1. Tao was a formed with things combined  together.

2. Before heaven and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;
4. Independent and stable;
5. Continuously orbiting but never exhausted;

 

 

maybe you meant to do this   ^ 

 

then we can get somewhere !  

Edited 11 hours ago by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I revised see if it make any sense to you.

 

Now it makes LESS sense  as you removed the essential   concept in question  !  

 

'' Continuously orbiting but never exhausted'

 

.

Edited 11 hours ago by Nungali

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

混

  means blend 

[Nungali]

I'm not following you . This seems disjointed and all over the place . 

 

I am off to  do the morning  watering of  my pet pot  plants , feed the fish , etc   ... and that is not cryptic nor requires alternative meanings .

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

周行而不殆
 

That is what it says:
Orbiting but not stopping implicating it is eternal.

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

I'm not following you . This seems disjointed and all over the place . 

 

I am off to  do the morning  watering of  my pet pot  plants , feed the fish , etc   ... and that is not cryptic nor requires alternative meanings .

Never mind. Go do your thing.

[Cobie]

 

51 minutes ago, Nungali said:

But did he really say that .   'Something spinning  before it comes into shape'  .  = ‘ Blinded  together  '    ? ? ? 

I have not seen any translation using either “spinning” or “blended”. Classical was polysemic, 混 had various tones and various meanings. Sinologist Henricks’ translation of the Guodian (the oldest script known):

 

On 28/12/2025 at 2:22 AM, Cobie said:

There is a form that developed from primordial chaos 

That was born before heaven and earth. 
Silent and still, it stands on its own and does not change. 

 

His translation of the MWD (the next oldest script known):

 

Quote

1. There was something formed out of chaos, 
2. That was born before Heaven and Earth. 
3. Quiet and Still! Pure and deep! 
4. It stands on its own and does not change. 

CD’s translation uses the Wang Bi script which is of a much later date; it used to be:

 

On 28/12/2025 at 2:32 AM, Cobie said:

1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
2. Before heaven and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;
4. Independent and stable;

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

42 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Now it makes LESS sense  as you removed the essential   concept in question  !  

' Continuously orbiting but never exhausted'

This line is not in the old scripts (Guodian, MWD). 

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

1. 有物混成

In terse English: 
1. A thing was formed.

I think this is the best fit for the translation. It is also in the Chinese classic format. Besides, Tao was not formed by chaos.

Edited 8 hours ago by ChiDragon