What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?

[DynamicEquilibrium]

10 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Would you like to rephrase that. So, a non-native English speaker can understand it. Thank you!

Yes, it is formulated in an unclear way, we are both non-native English speakers  

 

 

 

[steve]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

I think I had made it very clear. 清静無為 was not applying to breathing. If it did apply,  then I wouldn't be breathing at all.

 

I don't think that is accurate.

Breathing is a bodily functions that can occur with or without intention, attention, or engagement of any sort.

Breathing occurs naturally and spontaneously, even in deep sleep or when unconscious.

Intention can be used to override reflexive breathing but is not required.

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

48 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

What about reverse situation, does breathing applies as a step to 清静無為 in the seated meditation method you are presenting? 

 

Slow natural abdominal breathing is good to calm the mind, it activates the parasympathetic nervous system etc, it may also reduce oxydative stress, and in such situation the body may consume less oxygen than in other situations.  

 

Very good question! I am glad that you have brought modern science into this. The idea with slow breathing is to replace the oxygen that you was consumed. The reason we breathe is to provide oxygen to the body to so the body won't have a hypoxia condition. The reason we breathe slowly by not exhale too fast to return the oxygen back outside. The slowness in breathing is to keep the oxygen in the lung, so it will allow more time for the red blood cell to collect more oxygen and delivered to the body cells. 

Like I had said before.  清静無為 does not apply here. Otherwise, it would have the implication that we are just sitting to do nothing and don't do any breathing at all. BTW The practice of 氣功 is 清静有為. The intention to breathe slow is 有為.

Edited Thursday at 07:42 PM by ChiDragon

[steve]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

If we go to any specific subject board/forum, but we don't believe in their basic concepts, and we are having no experience of it, yet we use AI to translate some random texts and tell them what their interest really is, with some really doubtful statements.  It would not be received amicably, and could be viewed as provocation.

 

Yes, for sure when reading this sort of information we can feel provoked or offended and react accordingly.

Alternatively, we can consider it simply as entertainment rather than education and leave it be.

That has become my approach, when possible.

It's just not worth the effort and energy required to argue, knowing rational discussion will not change certain people's opinions.

 

If we are coming here or use AI to learn about how to practice neidan, we have already lost, IMO.

On the other hand, we can learn something about ourselves and our ideas when confronted with opposing ideas, no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched they may seem. 

 

I think there is some degree of truth and wisdom in bringing neidan and Daoist concepts down to Earth and into our own lived experience, something ChiDragon's perspective can remind us of.

Is every neidan text and teaching simply asking us to sit quietly and breath intentionally? Of course not. 

Having had a dozen years of instruction and correction from a credible teacher, I have my own opinions and understanding, but I do think that many people tend to create mystery and distance between themselves and their views and practice, particularly in Daoist practices and in Chinese internal martial arts.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, 29Gathering said:

… I will disagree with Daodejing being 1,000 years old because I know better …

Interesting, I’d like to hear your further thoughts on this please.

[Cobie]

My body does the breathing, I stay out of it; my natural breathing is abdominal.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:01 PM by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Slow natural abdominal breathing is good to calm the mind, it activates the parasympathetic nervous system etc, it may also reduce oxydative stress, and in such situation the body may consume less oxygen than in other situations.  

Perhaps, a non-native English would understand this better!
 

如何解開氣功的迷?

氣功對人體的生理有很大的影響,所以首先要由人體的生理開始研究,跟著觀察氣功的特徵. 如果可以把生理和氣功的特徵連在一起便可解開這個迷.

 

人體的構造是由細胞組成,人體必需要能量才能生存,所以不能不提及細胞內的腺粒體(mitochondria). 腺粒體是體內的發電廠,也是靠氧氣(oxygen)和葡萄糖(glucose) 產生能量(adenosine triphosphate, ATP).葡萄糖是從食物來的.氧氣是靠呼吸供應的, 所以氣功的最高的境界是要練到氣沈丹田, 要源源不絕供氧給細胞.

 

葡萄糖是從食物得來之後便儲藏在肝臟的肝糖(glycogen)必要時改變為葡萄糖. 腺粒體利用氧氣化解葡萄糖來製造能量(ATP).製造多少能量(ATP)便要看在體內有多少氧氣而定,普通呼吸氧氣的份量是有限的的.另外更要注意的就是腺粒體的數量,它的數量愈多便能製造愈多能量(ATP).練氣功可以增加氧氣和腺粒體的數量. 我們可以說氧氣的份量是人體健康的關鍵. 例如強化免疫系統和強身健體.

 

氣功的呼吸方法與普通呼吸不同, 古時叫吐納, 現代叫腹式呼吸. 吐納方式如下:

1. 吸氣時深而慢長使腹部膨脹, 橫隔膜向下降, 同時肺部也下降於是增加了氣體的容量, 即是可以把氧氣儲藏比以前更多.

2. 呼氣時也是深而慢長使腹部收縮, 橫隔膜向上升, 同時肺部也收縮, 於是慢慢把廢氣排出.

 

我們要注意為何氣功的特徵, 是呼吸一定深而慢長. 原因很簡單, 這樣可以給多些時間讓氧氣停留在肺部, 同時又可讓紅血球有適當的時間把氧扣起運送給細胞. 氣功只練呼吸是稱為靜功, 練呼吸帶有動作是稱為動功. 動功夠為有效, 因為動作使到肌肉一伸一縮, 是自然啟動線粒體產生能量的好時機. 以下的化學公式可證明線粒體如何運作:

Glucose + Oxygen => H2O + CO2 + Heat + Energy

葡萄糖 + 氧 => 水份 + 二氧化碳 + 熱能 + 能量

 

水份和二氧化碳是排除的廢物, 熱能是體溫可抵抗外寒, 能量是用來發揮五臟六腑的一切運作與功能. 身體頻繁做慢動作的運動如太極拳, 細胞便會無形中產生更多腺粒體. 腺粒體多了, 在必要時可以製造比以前更多能量(ATP)的機會, 即是可以隨時隨地發出一種強勁.

 

如果細胞訣氧, 腺粒體不能製造能量的過程中的丙酮酸(pyruvate)變成乳酸(lactate), 使到肌肉疼痛. 所以練氣功的人士不會有這種現象.

 

太極拳是最好練氣功的條件, 因為太極拳是呼吸配合動作, 和動作配合呼吸. 幫助增氧和增產腺粒體, 使身體有無限的能量去操作一切. 有無窮的力量, 正符合武人所說的名句"有氣就有力".

Note: For English speakers, please do not attempt to use a translator. It is because it is going to translate 氣 as "energy" everything will be mistranslated and out of context.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

40 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I don't think that is accurate.

Breathing is a bodily functions that can occur with or without intention, attention, or engagement of any sort.

Breathing occurs naturally and spontaneously, even in deep sleep or when unconscious.

Intention can be used to override reflexive breathing but is not required.

 

 

 

Thanks for the translation service 

 

To add to what Steve already wisely said: Breathing being controlled by the autonomic nervous system, it is a really really bad idea to intentionally try one's best to take control over breathing, from manuals, youtube videos, internet forums posts... The instructions and supervision of someone who truely knows what he does are a must to avoid any possible frightful results. 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:09 PM by DynamicEquilibrium

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, Apech said:

 

What is the breathing method, can you describe it?

 

Regular breathing is done by one's breathing habit. One can breathe shallow, short, deep, slow or fast at a different rate. It was considered to be the normal way of breathing to each individual. However, it is not necessary to be the correct way of breathing. Tu Na is done in a regulated manner.

Tu Na(吐納) method:
Tu (吐): Exhale slowly with the abdomen contacted inward all the way.
Na(納): Inhale slowly with the abdomen expanded outward all the way.
By doing so, it was known as slow, long and deep breathing. This method was the way how the ancient Chinese Taoists practiced Chi Kung breathing exercise during meditation.

I need to update the information regarding to Neidan breathing. It was defined by the Taoist that is to perform reverse LDT breathing during Neidan meditation.

There is an explanation why people become healthy and strong from practicing Chi Kung. It is because breathing has a biological effect to the body internally.

PS
The Tu Na breathing method is universal throughout the internal, external and martial arts practices.

Edited Thursday at 09:21 PM by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

27 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Perhaps, a non-native English would understand this better!
 

如何解開氣功的迷?

氣功對人體的生理有很大的影響,所以首先要由人體的生理開始研究,跟著觀察氣功的特徵. 如果可以把生理和氣功的特徵連在一起便可解開這個迷.

 

人體的構造是由細胞組成,人體必需要能量才能生存,所以不能不提及細胞內的腺粒體(mitochondria). 腺粒體是體內的發電廠,也是靠氧氣(oxygen)和葡萄糖(glucose) 產生能量(adenosine triphosphate, ATP).葡萄糖是從食物來的.氧氣是靠呼吸供應的, 所以氣功的最高的境界是要練到氣沈丹田, 要源源不絕供氧給細胞.

 

葡萄糖是從食物得來之後便儲藏在肝臟的肝糖(glycogen)必要時改變為葡萄糖. 腺粒體利用氧氣化解葡萄糖來製造能量(ATP).製造多少能量(ATP)便要看在體內有多少氧氣而定,普通呼吸氧氣的份量是有限的的.另外更要注意的就是腺粒體的數量,它的數量愈多便能製造愈多能量(ATP).練氣功可以增加氧氣和腺粒體的數量. 我們可以說氧氣的份量是人體健康的關鍵. 例如強化免疫系統和強身健體.

 

氣功的呼吸方法與普通呼吸不同, 古時叫吐納, 現代叫腹式呼吸. 吐納方式如下:

1. 吸氣時深而慢長使腹部膨脹, 橫隔膜向下降, 同時肺部也下降於是增加了氣體的容量, 即是可以把氧氣儲藏比以前更多.

2. 呼氣時也是深而慢長使腹部收縮, 橫隔膜向上升, 同時肺部也收縮, 於是慢慢把廢氣排出.

 

我們要注意為何氣功的特徵, 是呼吸一定深而慢長. 原因很簡單, 這樣可以給多些時間讓氧氣停留在肺部, 同時又可讓紅血球有適當的時間把氧扣起運送給細胞. 氣功只練呼吸是稱為靜功, 練呼吸帶有動作是稱為動功. 動功夠為有效, 因為動作使到肌肉一伸一縮, 是自然啟動線粒體產生能量的好時機. 以下的化學公式可證明線粒體如何運作:

Glucose + Oxygen => H2O + CO2 + Heat + Energy

葡萄糖 + 氧 => 水份 + 二氧化碳 + 熱能 + 能量

 

水份和二氧化碳是排除的廢物, 熱能是體溫可抵抗外寒, 能量是用來發揮五臟六腑的一切運作與功能. 身體頻繁做慢動作的運動如太極拳, 細胞便會無形中產生更多腺粒體. 腺粒體多了, 在必要時可以製造比以前更多能量(ATP)的機會, 即是可以隨時隨地發出一種強勁.

 

如果細胞訣氧, 腺粒體不能製造能量的過程中的丙酮酸(pyruvate)變成乳酸(lactate), 使到肌肉疼痛. 所以練氣功的人士不會有這種現象.

 

太極拳是最好練氣功的條件, 因為太極拳是呼吸配合動作, 和動作配合呼吸. 幫助增氧和增產腺粒體, 使身體有無限的能量去操作一切. 有無窮的力量, 正符合武人所說的名句"有氣就有力".

Note: For English speakers, please do not attempt to use a translator. It is because it is going to translate 氣 as "energy" everything will be mistranslated and out of context.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7452879/

 

https://nigms.nih.gov/biobeat/2020/05/the-maternal-magic-of-mitochondria

[Taomeow]

There's a very popular Chinese rapper who goes by the name Skai Isyourgod (Sky is your god) who peppers his songs with "mysterious" lines imitating or even citing daoist classics.  "Sushi has come from the east.  One yin, one yang, that is called the dao, purple qi arrives from the east."   This is a veritable mass transmission -- his followers count in the tens of millions.  

 

This reminded me of something...  Something about this thread...  and many others by some resident dao rappers...      

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Intention can be used to override reflexive breathing but is not required.

Do you consider abdominal and reverse LDT breathing intentional?

Edited Thursday at 09:25 PM by ChiDragon

[steve]

19 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Do you consider abdominal and reverse LDT breathing intentional?

 

In my experience they can be intentional, spontaneous, or a combination of both.

Although my spontaneous mode of breathing is primarily abdominal.

How about you?

[Apech]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Regular breathing is done by one's breathing habit. One can breathe shallow, short, deep, slow or fast at a different rate. It was considered to be the normal way of breathing to each individual. However, it is not necessary to be the correct way of breathing. Tu Na is done in a regulated manner.

Tu Na(吐納) method:
Tu (吐): Exhale slowly with the abdomen contacted inward all the way.
Na(納): Inhale slowly with the abdomen expanded outward all the way.
By doing so, it was known as slow, long and deep breathing. This method was the way how the ancient Chinese Taoists practiced Chi Kung breathing exercise during meditation.

I need to update the information regarding to Neidan breathing. It was defined by the Taoist that is to perform reverse LDT breathing during Neidan meditation.

There is an explanation why people become healthy and strong from practicing Chi Kung. It is because breathing has a biological effect to the body internally.

PS
The Tu Na breathing method is universal throughout the internal, external and martial arts practices.

 

 

OK - correct me if I'm wrong but to sum up what you are saying so far.

 

Neidan texts are over mystified by western translation.

Jing is body cells.

Qi is ATP

Shen is something that guides the body (?)

The process of Neidan is deep abdominal breathing - because this gives good cell health and vitality.

The Dan is nothing more than health produced in this way.

 

In effect there is no real difference between qigong and neidan (?).

 

Is this roughly correct in your view?

 

 

[ChiDragon]

49 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

OK - correct me if I'm wrong but to sum up what you are saying so far.

 

Neidan texts are over mystified by western translation.

Jing is body cells.

Qi is ATP

Shen is something that guides the body (?)

The process of Neidan is deep abdominal breathing - because this gives good cell health and vitality.

The Dan is nothing more than health produced in this way.

 

In effect there is no real difference between qigong and neidan (?).

 

Is this roughly correct in your view?

 

 

Yes! If in TCM, jing is defined as the structure of the body, and in modern science, cell is the basic unit of the body. Don't you get the implication that the Jing is equivalent to the body cell? 

 

Qi is ATP
Yes! 氣 is the vital source keep the body in tact by the TCM definition. In modern science, ATP is biological energy to keep the body to function normally. Do you see the similarity between them? Yes, here and only here, I would say 氣 is ATP. 

 

Shen is something that guides the body (?)
Yes, 神 (shen) is like the mind of the body or the soul of the body.

 

The process of Neidan is deep abdominal breathing - because this gives good cell health and vitality.
Yes, that was exactly the point I was making all along.

 

The Dan is nothing more than health produced in this way.
Yes, exactly. 內丹(Neidan) is a virtual pill.  The ancient Taoist thought it could be produced by the 內丹術.

 

In effect there is no real difference between qigong and neidan (?).
It is because both method involves breathing. BTW It is safe to say, any method involves with breathing would be considered 氣功. It is because by definition, 氣功 is the method of breathing. Somehow, I think the Chinese teachers had misled the public. Since they told the definition of 氣 is "energy" in the west, the Chinese are starting to think that is what it is too.

Is this roughly correct in your view?

Yes, that is exactly correct in my view. Thank you for your patience and being a good listener. You are a gentleman and a scholar! 

PS
It seems you have captured all of what I said. I don't know if you are resonated with me or not? I love to hear your view too!

Edited Thursday at 10:35 PM by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

 

28 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… Shen is something that guides the body (?)
Yes, 神 (shen) is like the mind of the body or the soul of the body.

 

Interesting

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:00 PM by Cobie

[stirling]

6 hours ago, 29Gathering said:

Throwing so many baits. Final comment: I will disagree with Daodejing being 1,000 years old because I know better and bow out of this thread.

 

The Dao de Jing could have been written 5,000 years ago, or 5 minutes ago... it is timeless. All dharma is timeless... exists OUTSIDE of time.

 

A hint: Britney Spears, Donald Trump, and your favorite television commercial are dharma IF you understanding what they are pointing out for you. 

 

An example: Your statement has brought to mind the thought that the Dao de Jings age might somehow impact its validity, and if that is somehow an attachment for me. I already gnow that is hilarious nonsense, so I smile. _/\_

[Apech]

12 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The Dao de Jing could have been written 5,000 years ago, or 5 minutes ago... it is timeless. All dharma is timeless... exists OUTSIDE of time.

 

A hint: Britney Spears, Donald Trump, and your favorite television commercial are dharma IF you understanding what they are pointing out for you. 

 

An example: Your statement has brought to mind the thought that the Dao de Jings age might somehow impact its validity, and if that is somehow an attachment for me. I already gnow that is hilarious nonsense, so I smile. _/\_

So true … when alone in solitude I cry out to my master to deliver the blow which will deliver my final awakening .. I pray thus:

 

My loneliness is killing me (and I)

I must confess, I still believe (still believe)

When I’m not with you I lose my mind

Give me a sign

Hit me, baby, one more time

 

 

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, 29Gathering said:

Throwing so many baits. Final comment: I will disagree with Daodejing being 1,000 years old because I know better and bow out of this thread.

I knew this bait was coming for an attack. 

[Cobie]

.

Edited Thursday at 11:43 PM by Cobie

[Apech]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes! If in TCM, jing is defined as the structure of the body, and in modern science, cell is the basic unit of the body. Don't you get the implication that the Jing is equivalent to the body cell? 

 

Qi is ATP
Yes! 氣 is the vital source keep the body in tact by the TCM definition. In modern science, ATP is biological energy to keep the body to function normally. Do you see the similarity between them? Yes, here and only here, I would say 氣 is ATP. 

 

Shen is something that guides the body (?)
Yes, 神 (shen) is like the mind of the body or the soul of the body.

 

The process of Neidan is deep abdominal breathing - because this gives good cell health and vitality.
Yes, that was exactly the point I was making all along.

 

The Dan is nothing more than health produced in this way.
Yes, exactly. 內丹(Neidan) is a virtual pill.  The ancient Taoist thought it could be produced by the 內丹術.

 

In effect there is no real difference between qigong and neidan (?).
It is because both method involves breathing. BTW It is safe to say, any method involves with breathing would be considered 氣功. It is because by definition, 氣功 is the method of breathing. Somehow, I think the Chinese teachers had misled the public. Since they told the definition of 氣 is "energy" in the west, the Chinese are starting to think that is what it is too.

Is this roughly correct in your view?

Yes, that is exactly correct in my view. Thank you for your patience and being a good listener. You are a gentleman and a scholar! 

PS
It seems you have captured all of what I said. I don't know if you are resonated with me or not? I love to hear your view too!

I have quite different views on these things and I will try to find time tomorrow (it’s after midnight here) to say what they are.  You can then if you want critique what I have to say 😊

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

So true … when alone in solitude I cry out to my master to deliver the blow which will deliver my final awakening .. I pray thus:

 

My loneliness is killing me (and I)

I must confess, I still believe (still believe)

When I’m not with you I lose my mind

Give me a sign

Hit me, baby, one more time

 

Your familiarity with her oeuvre is... enlightening!

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

The Dao de Jing could have been written 5,000 years ago, or 5 minutes ago... it is timeless. All dharma is timeless... exists OUTSIDE of time.

 

A hint: Britney Spears, Donald Trump, and your favorite television commercial are dharma IF you understanding what they are pointing out for you. 

Early this morning i was still half asleep drinking coffee in a shop and the tv was on, and not surprisingly the tv was showing a documentary in a zen place in Japan. The bit i caught was a zen practitioner saying that the Nei... errr, the dharma was even to be found in a stinking noodle, it made the coffee spray out of my nose without obstructions 

Edited Friday at 12:51 AM by DynamicEquilibrium

[stirling]

42 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

...it made the coffee spray out of my nose without obstructions 

 

The dharma is all about removing obstructions!

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

In my experience they can be intentional, spontaneous, or a combination of both.

Although my spontaneous mode of breathing is primarily abdominal.

How about you?

 

Good answer! BTW. If my normal breathing has not been reached to LDT breathing, then I would be intentionally try to get there by breathing practice. After I'm able to do that, it will be my normal breathing habit and become unintentional.

Edited Friday at 01:46 AM by ChiDragon