The practice of Neidan(內丹)

[DynamicEquilibrium]

Since they are so closely intertwined within living matter, the Bio-chemical and Bio-physical models perhaps can't reasonably be considered separatly despite their differences. 

A possible cause of confusion could be to introduce unrelated concepts into a subject which basically pertains to natural sciences. 

Edited 19 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[Wordless]

1 hour ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Since they are so closely intertwined within living matter, the Bio-chemical and Bio-physical models perhaps can't reasonably be considered separatly despite their differences. 

A possible cause of confusion could be to introduce unrelated concepts into a subject which basically pertains to natural sciences. 

It is typical in daoist thought that things are described in either the physical or the subtle. An example in neidan would be how a internal subtle change is made, which then will cascade leading to change in the external. An example of the opposite is in wuji stance, you let gravity pull you towards the earth, this constant pulling leads to small stretches of your relaxed muscles, which will lead to development of more Huang which in turn will lead to better qi conduction. From the physical to the subtle.

 

I think it's completely valid to drag in physics and biology/chemistry into the equation, but the question should be where in the cascading process do they fit in, in whatever specific circumstance is being discussed.

As a daoist you'd either make a small change that sets off a natural chain of responses, or strengthen an already ongoing natural process, to either speed it up or because the strengthened accumulation will result in an effect the weaker process couldn't make happen without the strengthening. From an internal arts perspective that is...

 

A long rambling basically to say that i agree  As for what concepts are related or not, that's probably as much of a matter of perspective and personal opinion or even preference for how minute or detailed things should be laid out.

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

@ChiDragon do you believe in chi?

Which chi are talking about? I only listen to people say what they think chi is. When I see the term Chi in a text, I will be very carefully try to figure out what the contextual meaning at that instance. 

Most people are brain washed that chi is energy. I think that is what you are asking me! Do I belive chi the same way as other people do? Sorry, my answer is no.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

It is typical in daoist thought that things are described in either the physical or the subtle. An example in neidan would be how a internal subtle change is made, which then will cascade leading to change in the external. An example of the opposite is in wuji stance, you let gravity pull you towards the earth, this constant pulling leads to small stretches of your relaxed muscles, which will lead to development of more Huang which in turn will lead to better qi conduction. From the physical to the subtle.

If i get it right, you are reffering to two different phases of a same cycle? 

Practiced separatedly through different technics or together as one within any technics ? 

Thank you for sharing, it allows me to verify and confirm once again the principles behind my own practice. 

 

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

As for what concepts are related or not, that's probably as much of a matter of perspective and personal opinion or even preference for how minute or detailed things should be laid out.

 

In any serious investigation into the nature of things it makes sense that personal beliefs and opinions should be left out of the way. 

For instance, i try to understand where heavy loaded concepts such as morality could fit into a study of the inherent principles of Life?

Of course it's perfectly fine to have one's own personal beliefs and opinions, a lot of key scientists in history had their own, maybe that was their talent or trained abilities to know how to make and understand differences that allowed them to not mix things up. 

Edited 14 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[Wordless]

4 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

If i get it right, you are reffering to two different phases of a same cycle? 

Practiced separatedly through different technics or together as one within any technics ? 

Thank you for sharing, it allows me to verify and confirm once again the principles behind my own practice. 

Yes, you could put it like that. In the wuji stance example, you could say Wuji stance -> better qi conduction. But the actual process is a longer chain and depending on how detailed you'd want to be, you could go from outer cosmo to inner cosmo.

 

Could start out from outer cosmo: How the earths yin energy alongside the wuji stances natural stability rooted with earth makes you more receptive of the heavens yang energy, the earths yin (think gravity) pulling (yang) your relaxed muscles towards it, creating space (yin) which in turn the Huang will naturally want to fill out and the qi will empower the build up of more Huang (as Huang is highly conductive to qi) and now we're in the inner cosmo. How the space created by the pull of the muscles creates a yin field and the yang conducted energy in the Huang will move towards that field.

 

Anyway i'm rambling again, my point is, one "action" leads to a whole series of effects and reactions. It can be viewed as succinctly as you'd want, but you could say the main idea is you borrow naturally occurring processes to power change by taking a certain "action" which leads to a series of natural reactions to occur. (also don't take my process description as correct as i just threw it together for illustrations sake).

 

A Technique could have one or more of these "process starting" actions, but i'd say that mainly, one technique would correspond to wanting one specific process to happen and while multiple actions may happen during that technique, but these are used to setup the "environment" or dominoes if you will, so when you do the main/final specific action, the environment/dominoes, are correct/aligned and the process you wish to happen, occurs. (sorry for the long answer).

 

39 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

In any serious investigation into the nature of things it makes sense that personal beliefs and opinions should be left out of the way. 

Yes, but i was talking of conceptual depth of any process (as showed above), but i agree that when investigating anything, hammering down as many facts as possible will give you a solid framework to lean on when investigating what is "unknown". Though how to then approach that investigation may still be coloured by belief or opinion or even just a "hunch" from slightly similar experiences from past investigations

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

6 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

I would frame it a little differently (but understand your point, would just say it is not a believe ....more like have you experienced chi and how it flows through the meridians and is distinct from physical matter? Same with jing? 

 

Yuanqi and jing are even more subtle...

No, I got the exact answer I needed from the way I asked

[Cobie]

 

7 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

I would frame it a little differently … more like have you experienced chi and how it flows through the meridians …

Why not ask so yourself?

 

 

[ChiDragon]

So far, even though, many people had claimed that they have practiced Neidan. Unfortunately, we did not get a satisfied description for the method of Neidan. Before we leave this thread, I still have some unfinished business to be completed. It is to translation for the information that I had acquired from AI. 

It is very interesting what AI reveal the secret of Qigong ang Neigong. It is not going to be somebody's make up story. Rather, it is the  fundamental concept that was passed down from generation to generation in the Taoist society.  The idea of Neidan was derived from the concept in TCM. The TCM was using the three treasures to explain what took place inside the human body. Especially, the concept of the preservation of the prenatal Jing was what initiated the practice of Neidan. Hopefully, the life can be prolonged or even become an immortal(仙).

Edited 12 hours ago by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

Yes, you could put it like that. In the wuji stance example, you could say Wuji stance -> better qi conduction. But the actual process is a longer chain and depending on how detailed you'd want to be, you could go from outer cosmo to inner cosmo.

 

Could start out from outer cosmo: How the earths yin energy alongside the wuji stances natural stability rooted with earth makes you more receptive of the heavens yang energy, the earths yin (think gravity) pulling (yang) your relaxed muscles towards it, creating space (yin) which in turn the Huang will naturally want to fill out and the qi will empower the build up of more Huang (as Huang is highly conductive to qi) and now we're in the inner cosmo. How the space created by the pull of the muscles creates a yin field and the yang conducted energy in the Huang will move towards that field.

 

Anyway i'm rambling again, my point is, one "action" leads to a whole series of effects and reactions. It can be viewed as succinctly as you'd want, but you could say the main idea is you borrow naturally occurring processes to power change by taking a certain "action" which leads to a series of natural reactions to occur. (also don't take my process description as correct as i just threw it together for illustrations sake).

 

We share the same main idea, just applied in different ways for different purposes.  

 

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

Yes, but i was talking of conceptual depth of any process (as showed above), but i agree that when investigating anything, hammering down as many facts as possible will give you a solid framework to lean on when investigating what is "unknown". Though how to then approach that investigation may still be coloured by belief or opinion or even just a "hunch" from slightly similar experiences from past investigations

Unfathomable conceptual depths if we are speaking of nature's intelligence and wisdom at work within natural processes. 

Thanks for the reminder, to solve this problem we may need a way to know and do something with our own pre-heavenly and post-heavenly bias, living beings with human shape are very subjective indeed. 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[Wordless]

2 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Unfathomable conceptual depths if we are speaking of nature's intelligence and wisdom at work within natural processes. 

Just a quick aside. If what we're trying to understand is a large area, by that i mean it either permeates many other things (presence) or it affects many other things (cause and effect), then one approach could be:

 

If it's presence is found in many things, choose a thing were you believe it's easiest to remove it's presence and remove it. The effect of it's absence should give a hint to why it was present to begin with.

 

If it's effect can be found on many things, choose 2 things it affects and compare the difference of effect between the 2 things.

 

Might help you, might not  Good luck.

[ChiDragon]

18 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

气功和內丹是否注重呼吸？

Is both Qigong and Neidan emphasized in breathing?

Acquired from AI.
简单来说：是的，呼吸是气功与内丹修炼中极其核心的部分。
在传统文化中，呼吸常被称为“调息”，与“调身”（姿势）和“调心”（意念）并列为修炼的三大要素。不过，气功与内丹在对待呼吸的深度和目的上有所不同。

Translation:
Simply speaking: Yes, breathing is part of the core practice for both Qigong and Neidan.

Traditionally, breathing was commonly considered as 调息(breathing regulation) and listed with 调身(bodybuilding) and 调心(mentality enhancing) as the three main elements in cultivation. However, The purpose and magnitude in breathing was treated differently for both Qigong and Neidan. 

Edited 11 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

18 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Acquired from AI:
1. 气功中的呼吸（基础与功力）

在气功（尤其是健身气功）中，呼吸主要起着调节生理状态和引动气血的作用。
常用方式： 主要是腹式呼吸（顺呼吸或逆呼吸）。要求做到“深、长、细、匀、悠”。
作用： * 增加氧气交换，按摩内脏。
通过呼吸的频率来调节神经系统（如放松或提神）。
以息导气： 所谓“意到气到”，呼吸往往作为一种动力，配合动作带动体内的能量感。

1. Breathing in Qigong(fundamental and efficacy)
In Qigong, (especially for fitness Qigong), the main purpose of breathing is to vitalize the biological state and induce the oxygenated blood flow.
The most common method: Mainly is adomeno breathing(regular or reverse breathing). it demands deep, long, minute, even and soft breathing.

Purpose: Enhancing the exchange of oxygen, massaging the internal organs.
Regulating the nervous system through the rhythm of breathing (e.g. loosing up or refreshing).
Using breathing to guide the chi(breath): The so-called it was said the intention guides the breath. Commonly, breathing was considered as the driving force that coordinates with the body movement. Hance, it gives one the internal energetic feeling. IMMHO That is why people called the feeling of chi as energy flow in the meridians. 
 

[ChiDragon]

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

2. 内丹中的呼吸（进火与化机）
内丹术（道家修炼的核心）对呼吸的看法更为深奥，将其视为**“风”**（动力源）。
武火与文火： 内丹通过呼吸的强度来控制体温和能量转化的速度。强力的呼吸称为“武火”，细微的呼吸称为“文火”。
胎息： 这是内丹修炼的高级境界。修炼者追求脱离口鼻呼吸，达到一种像胎儿在母体中那样、极其微弱甚至感知不到的内部循环状态。
真息： 内丹强调“真人之息以踵”，认为普通的肺部呼吸只是“凡息”，真正的能量运化（真息）是随着元气的升降而产生的，呼吸最终要服务于精、气、神的凝练。

2. Breathing in Neidan 

The method of Neidan(the core of Taoist practice) treating breathing is more subtle. Looking at it as "wind" (the source of driving force).
Heavy breathing and light breathing: Neidan, through the magnitude of breathing, regulating the speed in change the level of the body temperature and energy. Strong breathing was called Wu(martial) fire and light breathing is Wen(scholarly) Fire.

Fetal breathing: It is the highest realm that Neidan can be achieved. The practitioner pursuit to stay away from breathing with the nose and mouth. The purpose is to breathe like a fetus in the mother's womb. The breath is extremely weak to a point that one doesn't even feel any air circulation inside the body.

 

True breathing: Neidan was emphasized that the breath of a high Taoist priest come from the heels. It was thought that regular breathing is only mortal breathing. The flow of true energy depends along with the amount of yuen chi that was manufactured. Finally, the breathing was meant to serve the purpose for virtual cultivation of Jing, Chi, and Shen.

This is about finalized the translation. It is properly not too acceptable in the west. I think Chi is more acceptable as "energy" in the west. Indeed, I just want to tell it like it is and go on my way to pursuit what I think is right.

Edited 9 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Wordless]

24 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Finally, the breathing was meant to serve the purpose for virtual cultivation of Jing, Chi, and Shen.

This is about finalized the translation. It is properly not too acceptable in the west. I think Chi is more acceptable as "energy" in the west. Indeed, I just want to tell it like it is and go on my way to pursuit what I think is right.

Your translation literally differentiate between breath and Chi.

I'm not sure why you keep saying "in the west", Chinese daoist view Chi as an energy or "subtle substance" as well. There's plenty of Chinese practitioners on youtube you can look up yourself.

 

You're free to pursue whatever path you believe is the correct one, but don't try to overturn well established concepts. It only muddies discussions and benefits no one.

[ChiDragon]

17 minutes ago, Wordless said:

I'm not sure why you keep saying "in the west", Chinese daoist view Chi as an energy or "subtle substance" as well. There's plenty of Chinese practitioners on youtube you can look up yourself.

Yes, I know. That is why the west was won. The reason I said that is because chi is only translated as "energy" to them. 

The reason I said "in the west" is because I want to see how people react to what I said.

Edited 8 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Apech]

16 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, I know. That is why the west was won. The reason I said that is because chi is only translated as "energy" to them. 

The reason I said "in the west" is because I want to see how people react to what I said.

I have disagreed with some of your conclusions but I can see you’ve put a lot of work into this.  I agree that qi=energy is weak and think that it should be just left as qi in translations.

 

For me the distinction around neidan is about the Dan, the elixir or pill for immortality (ultimately).  I think I am right in saying that (it’s been a while since I studied this) the birth of neidan as separate from external alchemy is first documented in the cantong qi and that terms from external ‘chemical’ alchemy were applied to internal subtle substances.  This is why jing, qi and so on are conceived of as substances.

 

Thank you for taking the time to do the translation.

 

 

[Wordless]

25 minutes ago, Apech said:

I agree that qi=energy is weak and think that it should be just left as qi in translations.

I'll second this.

51 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, I know. That is why the west was won. The reason I said that is because chi is only translated as "energy" to them.

Well if it's any consolation, there's high quality english translations of chinese daoist text that does a good job at being nuanced and not over-simplifying the chinese texts or their concepts

This is also why people should buy and own at least 1 or 2 good translations of daoist texts, to support high quality work. Hopefully encouraging publishing houses to keep supporting such work.

[cake1234566]

There are certain misunderstandings of qi in the west (misunderstanding is the specialty of the west in fact) and pre 1900s translations are laughable with the qi = just energy or breath and they'll usually have tao as god or something lol, the baopuzi english translation is absolutely unreadable for example with classic lines such as "God is round, but there has been no compass."
In proper modern translations though its left as qi for that reason, because people who read neidan texts often have learnt from teachers in china and have the same understanding of qi as others in their lineage
I do absolutely agree that the misunderstanding exists, qi isn't just energy but it has an energetic component in many native chinese traditions especially neidan