The practice of Neidan(內丹)

[DynamicEquilibrium]

It is always difficult to understand something we didn't learn. If Neidan practitionners can't explain something in common langage with a clear enough definition and high enough resolution to outsiders who is to blame? The one who can't understand or the one who can't explain? Maybe none of them because in such situation the obvious fact is that both didn't start to learn yet. 

@ChiDragon You won't find the science of taoism, or more broadly speaking chinese traditionnal Life sciences, in Neidan, Qigong, Taijiquan etc for a very simple reason. If you use 微信, the official account 身心道工房 might be of interest to you, last year my teacher's teacher shared some ideas there. 

Edited yesterday at 05:15 AM by DynamicEquilibrium

[ChiDragon]

53 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

It is always difficult to understand something we didn't learn. If Neidan practitionners can't explain something in common langage with a clear enough definition and high enough resolution to outsiders who is to blame? The one who can't understand or the one who can't explain? Maybe none of them because in such situation the obvious fact is that both didn't start to learn yet. 

@ChiDragon You won't find the science of taoism, or more broadly speaking chinese traditionnal Life sciences, in Neidan, Qigong, Taijiquan etc for a very simple reason. If you use 微信, the official account 身心道工房 might be of interest to you, last year my teacher's teacher shared some ideas there. 

 I think we ran into a situation of 先入為主. Something we had learnt is hard to unlearn it.  The biggest problem, here, is the language barrier with no common ground to stand on. One side tells the other side is wrong. It is the stubbornness of both sides won't yield one to the other. Perhaps it is impossible. Thus it ended with 牛頭不對馬咀,  then, it comes a standing still. Luckily, just between you and I do not have a communication problem. My heart is calm and blood pressure is normal as I type. This is good for 性命雙修。

Edited yesterday at 05:57 AM by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

Some of the quotes from 淮南子 i colllected for a work before: 

 

About 形:

 

「夫形者，生之所也；氣者，生之元也；神者，生之制也。一失位，則三者傷矣。是故聖人使人各處其位，守其職，而不得相干也。」

 

「形者，生之舍也，氣之處也，神之本也。形散而氣亡，氣亡而神散。」

 

「故夫形者非其所安也而處之則廢，氣不當其所充而用之則泄，神非其所宜而行之則昧。此三者，不可不慎守也。」

 

「形獨立而無氣，則不生；氣獨立而無神，則不明。」

 

About 氣: 

 

「原氣者，乃在形先。充塞天地，稟受陰陽，變化無窮，不可為象，其動乃生。」

 

「氣和則神明，形安；氣亂則神昏，形弊。」

 

「今人之所以眭然能視，䁝然能聽，形體能抗，而百節可屈伸，察能分白黑、視醜美，而知能別同異、明是非者，何也？氣為之充而神為之使也。」

 

About 神:

 

「神者，不用視而見，不用聽而聞，不用慮而知，隱微難見，萬物莫不由之而生。」

 

「養神者與道為一，棄神者雖存形氣，終不達於真智。」

 

「何以知其然也？凡人之志，各有所在，而神有所系者，其行也，足蹪趎埳、頭抵植木而不自知也，招之而不能見也，呼之而不能聞也。耳目非去之也，然而不能應者，何也？神失其守也。故在於小則忘於大，在於中則忘於外，在於上則忘於下，在於左則忘於右；無所不充，則無所不在。是故貴虛者，以毫末為宅也。」

 

(This one above is an explaination of selective consciousness showing how 神 determine our perception of the reality)

 

Consequences of imbalances between these three: 

 

「今夫狂者之不能避水火之难，而越沟渎之险者，岂无形神气志哉？然而用之异也。失其所守之位，而离其外内之舍，是故举错不能当，动静不能中，终身运枯形于连嵝列埒之门，而蹪蹈于污壑阱陷之中。虽生俱与人钧，然而不免为人戮笑者，何也？形神相失也。故以神为主者，形从而利；以形为制者，神从而害。贪饕多欲之人，漠昏于势利，诱慕于名位，冀以过人之智植于高世，则精神日以耗而弥远，久淫而不还，形闭中距，则神无由入矣。是以天下时有盲妄自失之患。此膏烛之类也，火逾然而消逾亟。」

 

... :

「神靜則氣順，氣順則形安，三寶相養，生生不息。」

 

The purpose is not to use textual evidence to support an argument, but to share too few quotes from one of the countless reference materials (sorry to leave them untranslated and unexplained, unlike AI) i find relevant to some ideas discussed in this topic.

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:14 AM by DynamicEquilibrium

[DynamicEquilibrium]

26 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 I think we ran into a situation of 先入為主. Something we had learnt is hard to unlearn it.  The biggest problem, here, is the language barrier with no common ground to stand on. One side tells the other side is wrong. It is the stubbornness of both sides won't yield one to the other. Perhaps it is impossible. Thus it ended with 牛頭不對馬咀,  then, it comes a standing still. Luckily, just between you and I do not have a communication problem. My heart is calm and blood pressure is normal as I type. This is good for 性命雙修。

Well put ! 🙇🏻

If we couldn't demonstrate what we say, it would be very embarassing. 

I'm glad you and i came to some kind of 'friendly resonance', it is so sad when discussions turns into the creation of adversarial dynamics rather than collaborative ones, very very sad, especially on a taoist forum 🤣

 

[ChiDragon]

20 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

it is so sad when discussions turns into the creation of adversarial dynamics rather than collaborative ones, very very sad, especially on a taoist forum 🤣

It was just the idea of Wu Wei(無為) has not been caught up with the world yet.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It was just the idea of Wu Wei(無為) has not been caught up with the world yet.

Yes, so it is true that 氣 doesn't exist and that 道 was made up by 老子. 

 

 

[Antares]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

  The biggest problem, here, is the language barrier with no common ground to stand on. One side tells the other side is wrong. It is the stubbornness of both sides won't yield one to the other. Perhaps it is impossible.

This is pure manipulation on your part. I will put it like that - I wont use any language but the picture from quite authentic daoist text

I am not sure what is your goal to be here. So you say it is all about BODY and ATP? Seriously 

Edited yesterday at 09:25 AM by Antares

[Antares]

ATP leakage - new daoist term! 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

28 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

It is interesting to use a picture from a text that only initiated adepts of a particular sect would understand to support and prove a point to an outsider. 

Is it reverse manipulation or just the PR communication style of the sect? 

[Antares]

45 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Is it reverse manipulation

This is the picture from authentic daoist text. How it can be manipulation? There can be people who can't understand it. Then you have to read text and at least try to understand it. Believe me no one from any sect would show up here and disclose all "insiders" secrets.

At least you can see to what part the character 命 is applied. So 命 cant mean just BODY as ChiDragon states.

If he understands the language for him it is easier to get it at least on mental level but I am afraid...

[29Gathering]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

ATP leakage - new daoist term! 

At least we can say one thing, his ideas are not coherent at all but maybe he's having fun trashing these topics.

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

About 形:

 

「夫形者，生之所也；氣者，生之元也；神者，生之制也。一失位，則三者傷矣。是故聖人使人各處其位，守其職，而不得相干也。」

 

In modern term, it is more easy to be comprehensive

 

It is interesting that 身气神 are used here instead of 精气神.

 

这句话出自《淮南子·原道训》，是道家思想中关于身、气、神三者关系的经典论述。它通过类比政治秩序，阐述了生命健康的根本在于“各司其职”。
以下是为您整理的详细解读：
1. 核心字词翻译
形（形体）： 指肉体躯壳，是生命的载体（“生之所”）。
气（元气）： 指维持生命的能量和动力，是生命的根本（“生之元”）。
神（精神/灵魂）： 指心智、主宰，是生命的统帅和控制者（“生之制”）。
位/职： 它们各自应当处于的位置和担负的功能。
相干： 互相干扰、互相僭越

 

2. 现代文意译
这段话的意思是：
“人的形体是生命的寄托处，元气是生命的本源，精神是生命的统帅。如果其中任何一个失去了它应有的位置，那么形、气、神三者都会受到伤害。因此，懂得养生之道的人（圣人）会使这三者各就其位，各守其职，互不干扰。”

Edited yesterday at 10:57 AM by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It is interesting that 身气神 are used here instead of 精气神.

 

Maybe because 身 is related to 性 and 命 more than it seems. 

身心 would represent the 先天/後天 systemic structure of a particular individual, or individual 'body(性命)/mind(心)' system. 

Does it sound reasonable? 

Edited yesterday at 03:21 PM by DynamicEquilibrium

[DynamicEquilibrium]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

authentic daoist text. 

This sect appeared around 16th century if i recall correctly, it is a new branch or even just a new leave from a very big tree. 

Edited yesterday at 11:32 AM by DynamicEquilibrium

[Nintendao]

I think sombody mentioned huáng? This might be useful. Who knows?

 

1. Anatomical Composition of the Mesentery
   • The mesentery is a double-layered fold of peritoneum that suspends the small and large intestines from the posterior abdominal wall while providing a conduit for blood vessels, lymphatics, and nerves.
   • Embedded within it are autonomic nerve fibers, deriving from both sympathetic and parasympathetic systems, which innervate the intestines and mesenteric vasculature.
2. Enteric Nervous System (ENS) Integration
   • The ENS, intrinsic to the gastrointestinal tract, consists of the myenteric (Auerbach’s) plexus between longitudinal and circular smooth muscle layers and the submucosal (Meissner’s) plexus within the submucosa.
   • These plexuses can function autonomously to control motility, secretion, and blood flow, and their fibers extend into the mesenteric connective tissue, providing pathways for nerve signals along the tract.
3. Autonomic Control and Action Potentials
   • Sympathetic and parasympathetic fibers pass through the mesentery and synapse with the ENS, smooth muscle, blood vessels, and secretory cells.
   • The smooth muscle of the gut exhibits slow-wave potentials (basic electrical rhythms) generated by Interstitial Cells of Cajal. When these slow waves reach threshold, action potentials are triggered, causing rhythmic contractions.
   • These action potentials propagate via gap junctions and are modulated by enteric and autonomic nerves, ensuring coordinated intestinal motility and peristalsis.
4. Physiological Implication
   • Through the mesentery, the ENS and autonomic nerves transmit excitatory (e.g., acetylcholine) and inhibitory (e.g., norepinephrine, nitric oxide) signals to smooth muscle to regulate contraction patterns, local blood flow, and secretory activity.
   • This allows the mesentery not just to support the intestines mechanically, but also to mediate neurogenic control of digestion and vascular tone.

Edited yesterday at 12:41 PM by Nintendao

[Wordless]

37 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

I think sombody mentioned huáng? This might be useful. Who knows?

It's a compulsion really.... i hear foundation and qi, i just throw the Yi Jin Jing at them and yell HUANG before running away.

Thank you for the share  The reason i use Huang is exactly the reason that was discussed earlier about the word qi is better being left untranslated.

[Wordless]

5 hours ago, Antares said:

I wont use any language but the picture from quite authentic daoist text

This picture clearly shows the end goal of a true ATPaoist, arms and legs gotten rid off for better aerodynamics. The tap in the lower half of the picture is where the ATPaoist ties a knot before taking his final deep breath, expanding like a balloon and ascends to the divine.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

24 minutes ago, Wordless said:

expanding like a balloon and ascends to the divine.

Sounds like the opposite direction to 'return to the root', or at least to somewhere at the middle of the trunk. 

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

9 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The biggest problem, here, is the language barrier with no common ground to stand on.

 

I think the biggest problem is no one agrees on what is authoritative. Some think generative AI, some use internal school documents, and very few refer to anything common or verifiable. People say neidan, but they don't say which school, or commentary, or cite a source. 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I think the biggest problem is no one agrees on what is authoritative. Some think generative AI, some use internal school documents, and very few refer to anything common or verifiable. People say neidan, but they don't say which school, or commentary, or cite a source. 

The concept of the method of Neidan is the method and universal. Why should it be different from school to school. Why does matter where the source is coming from? Perhaps the documental descriptions may have a slight variation. However, the concept does not change.

Edited 23 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Maybe because 身 is related to 性 and 命 more than it seems. 

The universal concept of 性命雙修 is cultivation of the mind and body. The esoteric term to a Taoist for the mind is 性 as 性格 and 品牲. And for the for body is 命。These terms are universal to a Taoist. Even a native person cannot be understood as such without guidance or proper explanation. 

Edited 23 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Master Logray]

25 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The concept of the method of Neidan is the method and universal. Why should it be different from school to school. Why does matter where the source is coming from? Perhaps the documental descriptions may have a slight variation. However, the concept does not change.

 

I suggest you read more.   All schools are so different.  e.g. not all use LDT.

 

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

I suggest you read more.   All schools are so different.  e.g. not all use LDT.

 

I had read a lot already. I can even tell you who invented the Cultivation of Xing and Ming. You just wait.

[ChiDragon]

我們可以從以下三個層次來理解：
1. 起源：早於全真教
「性」指心性、神、意識；「命」指身體、氣、能量。
先秦時期： 《易經》中已有「窮理盡性，以至於命」的說法，這被視為性命雙修的思想源頭。
唐宋內丹家： 在王重陽之前，鍾離權和呂洞賓（鍾呂內丹派）以及北宋的張伯端（南宗始祖，著有《悟真篇》）就已經明確提出了性命雙修的思想。張伯端強調「只修祖性不修丹，萬劫陰靈難入聖」，主張身體與心靈必須同時修煉。
2. 王重陽的貢獻：確立體系
王重陽雖然不是發明者，但他創立的全真教（北宗）對此有獨特的貢獻和偏重：
正式確立為教義： 王重陽將「性命雙修」明確列為全真道的修煉大綱，提出「性命是修行之根本」。
「先性後命」的特點： 與南宗（先命後性）不同，王重陽和全真七子更強調先修性、後修命。他認為應先從「澄心遣欲」入手，心性定下來後，再進行身體能量（命功）的轉化。

[Wordless]

computer translate.... yes... yes... i see now....... "Wang Zhenyan is not a magist, but he has set up a true religion (Northern Zong) with a t-shirt and emphasis:"....... yes... we must increase market share through t-shirt branding.... google translate what would i do without you.