The practice of Neidan(內丹)

[DynamicEquilibrium]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Yes, I figured that there was something hidden in the username.  Without any explanation, I see 性命雙修 is taken place in your daily life. What a coincidence, Wu Wei helps me to do the same. 

So far it eased my heart from a lot of burden, improved my health, clarified my mind, pacified internal conflicts, harmonized my human relationships...all this is very real for sure.  You've said it all. The mutual resonance on our part 可算得是知己知彼. No wonder the friendly gesture is unavoidable.

Absolutlely right, same goes for me from your posts and writing style. 

I don't regret to have taken a step out, now i have a new friend. 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

6 hours ago, Nintendao said:

and heaven and nature sing!

 

have we arrived at the gate?

 

 

Thank you. 

 

The OP ask fundamental questions and makes a very good observation: 

 

"there are actually many "unknowable" elements to human existence. Why does one person have a good response with a certain method, while another person suffers a lot of setbacks with the same method, or even has a terrible side effect? Who can really explain it? Precisely because these things are hard to say or know, you don’t hear many people in Taoist temples saying, “This is the one and only way to practice” or “It will definitely end bad if you practice that way.” There are nearly infinite variables in life. So many things really varies from person to person."

 

In the same way, it is not rare that what we call 'love' between two people end up in the killing of one of the partner. Not rare too that our choices and decisions in many different areas of life make us end up in very difficult and complicated situations, troubles, disorders, problems, diseases.  

 

Taoism has ways to answer such questions, individually, it is called taoist counselling. There are reasons underlying tangible and intangible phenomenas that can be calculated, measured and analyzed which can explain why for exemple this particular individual should not practice by this way, and methods to establish a tailor made 'training program' for that particular individual. 

 

From the point of view of taoist counselling, it is a daring bet to engage head first into something without knowing the odds. 

 

Why nowadays we can't find these taoist ways in taoist temples, Neidan schools, online Neigong academies etc is very simple, the speaker in the video learnt taoist practice at the Baiyunguan in Beijing if i recall correctly. This is a very special environment with its historical and cultural history, but unfortunately the original meaning and purpose of this place may have change into something else around the 50's. 

 

Today, 99% of the taoist channels linking to the west originate in this 'something else' which is devoid of the original value, meaning and purpose of taoism as a prehistorical intangible cultural heritage, but as you can feel from your 9th sense, we are almost arrived at the gate. 

Edited yesterday at 07:25 AM by DynamicEquilibrium

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Thank you. 

 

The OP ask fundamental questions and makes a very good observation: 

 

"there are actually many "unknowable" elements to human existence. Why does one person have a good response with a certain method, while another person suffers a lot of setbacks with the same method, or even has a terrible side effect? Who can really explain it? Precisely because these things are hard to say or know, you don’t hear many people in Taoist temples saying, “This is the one and only way to practice” or “It will definitely end bad if you practice that way.” There are nearly infinite variables in life. So many things really varies from person to person."

 

In the same way, it is not rare that what we call 'love' between two people end up in the killing of one of the partner. Not rare too that our choices and decisions in many different areas of life make us end up in very difficult and complicated situations, troubles, disorders, problems, diseases.  

 

Taoism has ways to answer such questions, individually, it is called taoist counselling. There are reasons underlying tangible and intangible phenomenas that can be calculated, measured and analyzed which can explain why for exemple this particular individual should not practice by this way, and methods to establish a tailor made 'training program' for that particular individual. 

 

From the point of view of taoist counselling, it is a daring bet to engage head first into something without knowing the odds. 

 

Why nowadays we can't find these taoist ways in taoist temples, Neidan schools, online Neigong academies etc is very simple, the speaker in the video learnt taoist practice at the Baiyunguan in Beijing if i recall correctly. This is a very special environment with its historical and cultural history, but unfortunately the original meaning and purpose of this place may have change into something else around the 50's. 

 

Today, 99% of the taoist channels linking to the west originate in this 'something else' which is devoid of the original value, meaning and purpose of taoism as a prehistorical intangible cultural heritage, but as you can feel from your 9th sense, we are almost arrived at the gate. 

 

 

If you are interested in how west and east converge on Daoism, try this book

 

Dream Trippers

Global Daoism and the Predicament of Modern Spirituality

David A. Palmer and Elijah Siegler

https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/D/bo26692000.html

 

 

 

 

[Master Logray]

16 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

100% wrong.

 

Yes, the Xing in cultivation is not only the character or integrity of a person which is a layman's understanding.   The Xing in Taoist cultivation is somewhat similar to other traditions like Buddhism, about the stillness, pureness, voidness of the mind.  The character/integrity are requirements. 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

15 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

If you are interested in how west and east converge on Daoism, try this book

 

Dream Trippers

Global Daoism and the Predicament of Modern Spirituality

David A. Palmer and Elijah Siegler

https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/D/bo26692000.html

 

 

 

 

Thank you, a good reference indeed! 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

Hopefully in the future these very precious and key field scholars will write another book titled : 

'Reality Trippers

Forgotten Daoism and the Predicament of the Modern World'

Edited yesterday at 11:36 AM by DynamicEquilibrium

[steve]

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Yes, the Xing in cultivation is not only the character or integrity of a person which is a layman's understanding.   The Xing in Taoist cultivation is somewhat similar to other traditions like Buddhism, about the stillness, pureness, voidness of the mind.  The character/integrity are requirements. 

 

The fellow that made the video on xuan guan does a nice job discussing xing and ming and their cultivation in this and other videos. 

[forestofclarity]

Xing and Ming appear to be open terms with a broad spectrum of meanings with different nuances depending on the context. People seem to want to cling onto a single definition rather than seeking the underlying principle. Which is fine is people want to argue on the internet, I guess, but I don't see how it will forward practice. It seems to me that the spiritual arts of China are in fact arts as opposed to engineering manuals. But that's just my opinion. 

 

Here is an article with actual references to classical material talking about this. Anyone familiar with Chan or other literature may see the pattern rippling with different terms. 

 

https://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

 

 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

Xing and Ming appear to be open terms with a broad spectrum of meanings with different nuances depending on the context. People seem to want to cling onto a single definition rather than seeking the underlying principle. Which is fine is people want to argue on the internet, I guess, but I don't see how it will forward practice. It seems to me that the spiritual arts of China are in fact arts as opposed to engineering manuals. But that's just my opinion. 

 

Here is an article with actual references to classical material talking about this. Anyone familiar with Chan or other literature may see the pattern rippling with different terms. 

 

https://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

 

 

 

Completly agree with you about the opposition you suggest, like a conflict between fire and metal, they may need more than only one mediator to facilitate their relationships and increase the efficiency of their communications. 

 

In opinion, it is very useful to know at least some about the background of a particular definition, for exemple, the very knowlegeable martial arts teacher in the video provides almost copy/pasted definitions and interpretations of those from Chen Yining, a scholar of taoism who extracted theories and practices from Neidan texts and participated in the establishment of the Chinese Taoist Association, a Chinese government religious institution whose quarterheads are located in the Baiyunguan in Beijing. His theories and practices may have became what we can call the 'modern general method of taoist meditation'. 

 

It is perfectly fine to move into that direction if it resonates, nobody has the right to say that's it is wrong to go there just because this or that nobody chose another direction,  it is just that the particular culture of the academic, religious, scientific, political, medical, military etc background and their infinite possible combinations will become the environement and in my opinion it is something we should at least be aware of, because if i am a dog, i really don't want to end up being raised by cats and then start to meow and purr believing to be one, later in life the traumatic realization that i actually lived for years like a pussy could be terrible!!

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Chen Yining, a scholar of taoism who extracted theories and practices from Neidan texts and participated in the establishment of the Chinese Taoist Association, a Chinese government religious institution whose quarterheads are located in the Baiyunguan in Beijing. His theories and practices may have became what we can call the 'modern general method of taoist meditation'. 

 

Many people come on here, claim that all the public schools/teachings are wrong, and imply that they have access to the true teaching. This isn't a Daoist thing, but seems to be a part of all spiritual paths in one way or another. Of course, many of these claims are contradictory, so how does one discern the true and the false?

 

For me, part of my personal criteria is 1) are the teachings consistent with the literature of the accepted traditions; 2) do the teachings lead to the results? Of course, there are additional criteria, but these are the ones I'm focusing on here. 

 

So with this in mind, I'd ask: do you have reason to believe he didn't have access to the oral tradition as he claimed? Or that his methods don't work as his students claimed? Or are they inconsistent with the classical literature? 

I suppose a similar set of questions can be asked about the implications around Hai Yang. What do you think he gets wrong and why is it wrong? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

https://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

 

I was wondering where are the people getting the confusion from. People took this as Bible. That was the problem. He wasn't sure what he is talking about. He may know the definition of the individual characters. However, he doesn't know what the individual meaning of 性 and 命 abide to definition of the cultivation. 

 

P.S. 
The cultivation of  性 and 命 is not pertaining the Neidan. The cultivation was intended to be a better person as 真人. 真人 should be known as a "True man," other than a "real man" as commonly translated. The idea for being a True man is to have a good educated mind with a healthy body. BTW They don't called this as 性命雙修 for nothing you know.

Quoted from the above:
"Neidan or Internal Alchemy has developed two main modes of selfcultivation. The first is based on cultivating the mind and intends to remove the causes that prevent one from “seeing one’s true nature,” which is equated with the Elixir. The second is based on purifying the main components of the human being—Essence (jing 精 ), Breath (qi 氣 ), and Spirit (shen 神 )—so that they may serve as ingredients of the Elixir. These two modes of self-cultivation are said to place an emphasis on xing 性 and on ming 命 , respectively. However, Neidan texts repeat time and again that xing and ming can only be understood and realized in conjunction with one another."

I can accept that the 精 as essence. However, 氣 is definitely doesn't mean breath here. Rather, it is the vital force to keep the body to function. Also, it is not an energy. 

神 is not spirit, rather it is a driving force to keep the body in motion.

Edited 15 hours ago by ChiDragon

[steve]

4 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Xing and Ming appear to be open terms with a broad spectrum of meanings with different nuances depending on the context. People seem to want to cling onto a single definition rather than seeking the underlying principle.

 

Yes, this certainly carries over to the main subject of the video linked above, xuan guan. While I do not disagree with his points and feel no need to challenge or debate, my Daoist teacher taught xuan guan as a very specific and precise location that was an important part of our meditation practice. Actualizing that point in practice had effects which proved for me, and fellow students, to be related to ‘non-local’ effects referred to in the video.

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Xing and Ming appear to be open terms with a broad spectrum of meanings with different nuances depending on the context.

Yes, people made it too broad and lost its esoteric narrow meaning in the context. BTW The same problem applies the 气。

Edited 18 hours ago by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Many people come on here, claim that all the public schools/teachings are wrong, and imply that they have access to the true teaching. This isn't a Daoist thing, but seems to be a part of all spiritual paths in one way or another. Of course, many of these claims are contradictory, so how does one discern the true and the false?

 

I'd say by trying one's best to keep a neutral point of view while coming across different versions during our exploration.

I guess neither absolute truth nor absolute falsehood can exist within what basically smells like working through relative dynamics.

The contradiction seems more to come from sectarian dogmatic positions fighting each others rather than from a mind incapacity to organise its own relationships with reality, but yes the feedback is very anoying. 

Why do you ask this question Forest of clarity ? 

 

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

So with this in mind, I'd ask: do you have reason to believe he didn't have access to the oral tradition as he claimed? Or that his methods don't work as his students claimed? Or are they inconsistent with the classical literature? 

 

No reason to believe anything because of the extensive practical experience i have in his method. One of my teacher teacher's learnt directly from him.  

I'd say its not for everybody, not for no one either, it depends on individual inborn caracteristics.

 

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

I suppose a similar set of questions can be asked about the implications around Hai Yang. What do you think he gets wrong and why is it wrong? 

 

He gets nothing wrong about this particular version of Taoist practice, he can explain it very detaily and accurately, what he can't do, is to tell you if this version is good for you or not.

 

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

I'd say by trying one's best to keep a neutral point of view while coming across different versions during our exploration.

I guess neither absolute truth nor absolute falsehood can exist within what basically smells like working through relative dynamics.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more.
 

The cultivation of  性 and 命 is not pertaining the Neidan. The cultivation was intended for one to be a better person as 真人. 真人 should be known as a "True man," other than a "real man" as commonly translated. The idea for being a True man is to have a good educated mind with a healthy body. BTW They don't called this as 性命雙修 for nothing, you know!

A good educated mind is able to distinguish what is true or false and able to sort and filter things out with logic. 

Edited 15 hours ago by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

17 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Thank you. I couldn't agree more.
 

The cultivation of  性 and 命 is not pertaining the Neidan. The cultivation was intended for one to be a better person as 真人. 真人 should be known as a "True man," other than a "real man" as commonly translated. The idea for being a True man is to have a good educated mind with a healthy body. BTW They don't called this as 性命雙修 for nothing, you know!

A good educated mind is able to distinguish what is true or false and able to sort and filter things out with a logic. 

As you know, it is not easy to hold one's breath to dive to a sufficient depth to find out that actually Neidan did an appropriation and reinterpretation of these terms.

 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[ChiDragon]

On 12/21/2025 at 6:50 AM, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Of course ! 

Quantity and quality of energy might be an important distinction to make and understand while we are trying to explore energy transformation processes such as Neidan.

 

Okay, thank you for your patience. Since we have many ideas and definitions argued or agreed upon.  I think we have enough information(aminition) to continue with the journey of Neidan.   

As I recall, I believe your question was referring to the quality in the achievement of my Taiji practice. Anyway, what I had changed in my body from the practice were:
1. I can breathe much deeper and more efficiently. It is the most important factor.
2. More alert 

3. Faster reflex 

4. Stay calmer in adverse situations. 

5. Do not get fatigue too easily
6. More body strength to perform difficult task
7. My voice increased in tone makes it better for singing and able to handle more notes
8. Better mentality.

The practice is mainly with the coordination of the breathing and the movements. You might say that Taiji is also the cultivation of 性 and 命.

 

Edited 14 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Apech]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

https://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

 

I was wondering where are the people getting the confusion from. People took this as Bible. That was the problem. He wasn't sure what he is talking about. He may know the definition of the individual characters. However, he doesn't know what the individual meaning of 性 and 命 abide to definition of the cultivation. 

 

P.S. 
The cultivation of  性 and 命 is not pertaining the Neidan. The cultivation was intended to be a better person as 真人. 真人 should be known as a "True man," other than a "real man" as commonly translated. The idea for being a True man is to have a good educated mind with a healthy body. BTW They don't called this as 性命雙修 for nothing you know.

Quoted from the above:
"Neidan or Internal Alchemy has developed two main modes of selfcultivation. The first is based on cultivating the mind and intends to remove the causes that prevent one from “seeing one’s true nature,” which is equated with the Elixir. The second is based on purifying the main components of the human being—Essence (jing 精 ), Breath (qi 氣 ), and Spirit (shen 神 )—so that they may serve as ingredients of the Elixir. These two modes of self-cultivation are said to place an emphasis on xing 性 and on ming 命 , respectively. However, Neidan texts repeat time and again that xing and ming can only be understood and realized in conjunction with one another."

I can accept that the 精 as essence. However, 氣 is definitely doesn't mean breath here. Rather, it is the vital force to keep the body to function. Also, it is not an energy. 

神 is not spirit, rather it is a driving force to keep the body in motion.

 

 

So a 'vital force' and a 'driving force' is not an energy?  Hmm.  Energy just means the capacity to do work ... or to effect change in some way.  So anything which is a vital force must be by definition an energy.  Not trying to be picky here as although I accept that the term energy in these contexts has been used in a sloppy way, it does have an exact meaning.

 

Also is it not true that terms which are used elsewhere in certain ways are used in Neidan spcifically as technical terms which may be different to the general meaning of something.  I think this needs to be remembered.

 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

As you know, it is not easy to hold one's breath to dive to a sufficient depth to find out that actually Neidan did an appropriation and reinterpretation of these terms.

 

 

 

 

This is exactly the point.

 

 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

20 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Okay, thank you for your patience. Since we have many ideas and definitions argued or agreed upon.  I think we have enough information(aminition) to continue with the journey of Neidan.   

As I recall, I believe your question was referring to the quality in the achievement of my Taiji practice. Anyway, what I had changed in my body from the practice were:
1. I can breathe much deeper and more efficiently. It is the most important factor.
2. More alert 

3. Faster reflex 

4. Stay calmer in adverse situations. 

5. Do not get fatigue too easily
6. More body strength to perform difficult task
7. My voice increased in tone makes it better for singing and able to handle more notes
8. Better mentality.

The practice is mainly with the coordination of the breathing and the movements. You might say that Taiji is also the cultivation of 性 and 命.

 

'君子坦蕩蕩, 小人長戚戚'

(Yes, i use a Confucius quote) 

 

性命雙修 not dependent to a particular technic, singing, dancing , gardening, cooking, painting, writing, playing and instrument etc can be the media to practice, Taiji, Qigong, martial arts too of course, we just need the principles to turn skills into 性命雙修. 

 

Edited 14 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[DynamicEquilibrium]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

This is exactly the point.

 

 

The point of peace. 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

So a 'vital force' and a 'driving force' is not an energy?  Hmm.  Energy just means the capacity to do work ... or to effect change in some way.  So anything which is a vital force must be by definition an energy.  Not trying to be picky here as although I accept that the term energy in these contexts has been used in a sloppy way, it does have an exact meaning.

 

Also is it not true that terms which are used elsewhere in certain ways are used in Neidan spcifically as technical terms which may be different to the general meaning of something.  I think this needs to be remembered.

 

 

Thank You. I will make a mental note of that. I would, also, like to remind you that the method of Neidan was only a virtual concept dreamed up by the ancient Taoist and there wasn't any physical proof.  People are just took it for granted. 

[ChiDragon]

8 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

'君子坦蕩蕩, 小人長戚戚'

(Yes, i use a Confucius quote) 

 

性命雙修 not dependent to a particular technic, singing, dancing , gardening, cooking, painting, writing, playing and instrument etc can be the media to practice, Taiji, Qigong, martial arts too of course, we just need the principles to turn skills into 性命雙修. 

 

知己知彼

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, Apech said:

This is exactly the point.

 

It is only in the eyes of the beholder. 
I would just leave it!

Edited 13 hours ago by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Thank You. I will make a mental note of that. I would, also, like to remind you that the method of Neidan was only a virtual concept dreamed up by the ancient Taoist and there wasn't any physical proof.  People are just took it for granted. 

Thank you for the reminder. 

Neidan is a just a practical mean to reach the achievements sought after within Taoist spirituality, so actually it doesn't matter that much as long as there is a respectful and open minded attitude between Neidanists and non believers don't you think ? 

Immortal just like saint, it is a posthumous title, and there is some very substantial real life wisdom in their words too. 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium