My misconceptions

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Anyone who can show me at least one of your 9 souls gets a free lollipop. 

 

  

 

 

 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I liked my office job, but I definitely like this priest gig more.

 

Yeah but ..... thats only because you dont have a soul    

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Apech said:

Don’t make me facepalm you 😀

 

 

Fight ... fight .... fight .....   Mod fight !    Yeah ! 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

Your image doesn't come through for me but there certainly is quite a bit of flamboyance in the Bön traditions.

The sounds, smells, costumes, iconography, stupas - lots of beautiful stuff (if you're into that sort of thing).

 

Its often been hard to post an image here lately .

 

 

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

There are "nine ways" according to the old Bön tradition which I reference below. The first four are referred to as "causal vehicles" and are closely related to the shamanic roots of Bön and working with natural forces, elements, and energies and such. The 5th and 6th vehicles are related to the sutric paths (paths of renunciation, working with one's body, speech, and mind to reject samsara and strive towards liberation through prayer and mind training primarily). The 7th and 8th are the "tantric" vehicles. In this group we find many practices that I think are closest to what you are describing as "active meditation." Practices developing relationships with meditational deities (yidams) and elemental goddesses (dakinis) and becoming intimately familiar with all of their associations, visualizations, rituals, offerings, mudras, mantras, behaviors, etc... 

 

yes, 7 and 8  do seem similar , in the western system they would be under  the 'invocations'  section

 

 

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

When I think of and refer to "active meditation," it is in the context of the 9th vehicle. These are not "active" practices per se but are an application of dzogchen practice to every activity imaginable. Life becomes the practice.

 

   Ah yes .... little understood that one !    Sometimes I am asked ( usually after a 'session' of  'teaching'  ... which is usually just getting bombarded by questions   )  '' But what do you do now ?'' or '' Why dont you do that practice anymore .'' 

 

- thats the easier answer .

 

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

 

The core practice, as I think you know, is to recognize the nature of the mind and eventually identify with this as one's ultimate "self." In this context, active meditation ultimately means that one remains fully connected with the mind's pure essence throughout every waking, active, sleeping, dreaming, and dying moment.

 

I would  say  , possibly the same with me .... depending on the definition / concept of this 'mind' being talked about . . . and regarding that as the 'ultimate self ' .

 

 

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

The practice is to first establish stability and continuity in formal practice on a cushion in a quiet place, undisturbed. When stable enough, we try to find that connection, and eventually some stability and continuity, while engaged in "righteous" and "supportive" practices like reciting mantras, circumambulating sacred sites, reciting prayers, and so on. When that is successful, we move on to more mundane daily  activities like eating, cleaning, sex, and so on. Finally, we challenge ourselves with activities that would typically take us far out of that space - emotional and painful situations, jobs that involve creating harm (like butchery), fighting, and so forth. 

 

Very similar to the practice of 'maintaining consciousness center and energy flow through the 'hara ' .  

 

I mentioned this training before ;   '  Now ... stand up and come over here next to me  .....   did you loose  your hara ? ... go back and sit  then . ''  yes it was mostly  applied to 'fighting ' training , but after a while it spreads out to other areas . 

 

 

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

These categories are not mutually exclusive. Most practitioners are engaging with practices from different vehicles at any given time in their life depending on what is needed and how they are progressing. Tantric practitioners also practice with the nature of mind but do not consider that enough in and of itself and engage in transformative practices with the assistance of meditational deities. The 9th vehicle focuses exclusively on the nature of mind and states that the results of all other vehicles are accessible when this practice is done properly. 

 

The more you tell me about this tradition the more I like it    

 

 

 

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

The Nine Ways of Bön according to the Southern Treasures: (quoted from https://ravencypresswood.com/2013/02/24/what-are-the-nine-ways-of-bon/)

1. The Way of the Shen of Prediction: This Way includes divination, astrology, various rituals, and medical diagnosis.

2. The Way of the Shen of the Phenomenal World: This Way includes rituals dealing with communication with external forces such as rituals of protection, invocation, ransom of the soul and life-force, and  of repelling negative or harmful energies.

3. The Way of the Shen of Manifestation: This Way includes venerating a deity or master and then applying mantra and mudras in order to accomplish a goal such as requesting assistance from natural energies.

4. The Way of the Shen of Existence: This Way is primarily focused upon rituals for the dead and methods to promote longevity for the living.

5. The Way of the Virtuous Lay Practitioners: This Way specifies the proper conduct of lay person taking vows.

6.  The Way of the Fully Ordained: This Way specifies the proper conduct for those who are fully ordained practitioners.

7. The Way of the White AH: This Way is primarily focused upon tantric practice using visualization.

8. The Way of the Primordial Shen: This Way is primarily focused upon higher tantric practice.

9. The Unsurpassed Way: This Way is primarily focused upon the practice of Dzogchen, or The Great Perfection.  This Way does not rely upon antidotes of any kind, ritual or practice with a meditational deity.  It is concerned with the realization of the true nature of one’s own mind.

 

 

 

[stirling]

30 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Yeah but ..... thats only because you dont have a soul    

 

It's true! 

[stirling]

30 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Fight ... fight .... fight .....   Mod fight !    Yeah ! 

 

 

 

 

I think it's more of a joust. Or maybe a drinking game...

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

... Very similar to the practice of 'maintaining consciousness center and energy flow through the 'hara ' .  

 

I mentioned this training before ;   '  Now ... stand up and come over here next to me  .....   did you loose  your hara ? ... go back and sit  then . ''  yes it was mostly  applied to 'fighting ' training , but after a while it spreads out to other areas . 

 

(Omori) Sogen wrote:

 

… It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting.  We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over… 

(“An Introduction to Zen Training:  A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 59.)

 

 

Omori quoted one Hida Haramitsu:

 

We should balance the power of the hara (area below the navel) and the koshi (area at the rear of the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body. 

 

(Hida Haramitsu, “Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], parentheticals added; referenced without publisher and date in "An Introduction to Zen Training, above)

 

 

The equilibrium that Haramitsu described can follow a necessity of breath that places consciousness in the lower abdomen, given a feeling of ease at the point of consciousness and the experience of gravity as the source of activity and stretch.

 

I’m partial to Yuanwu’s “turning to the left, turning to the right, following up behind” (“The Blue Cliff Record” Case 17, tr Cleary & Cleary). If I relax the muscles of the lower abdomen and the muscles behind the pelvis, and calm the stretch of ligaments between the pelvis and the sacrum, gravity can yield a “turning to the left, turning to the right”.

 

“Following up behind” I believe refers to support engaged behind the sacrum and spine:

 

There is… a possible mechanism of support for the spine from the displacement of the fascia behind the spine, a displacement that may depend on a push on the fascia behind the sacrum by the bulk of the extensor muscles, as they contract.
 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages. 

 

 

(Applying the Pali Instructions)

 

 

 

[Lairg]

Has the human race progressed spiritually in the last few millennia?

 

If so, some of the older texts may be more useful to the late joiners.

 

If not, some of the older texts may be deficient

 

 

[Apech]

Just now, Lairg said:

Has the human race progressed spiritually in the last few millennia?

 

If so, some of the older texts may be more useful to the late joiners.

 

If not, some of the older texts may be deficient

 

 

Progress is a myth.

[Lairg]

20 minutes ago, Apech said:

Progress is a myth.

 

Is the human race unsuited to progress?

 

How large is your sample?

 

Has evolution bypassed this planet?

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:51 AM by Lairg

[Apech]

39 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

Is the human race unsuited to progress?

 

How large is your sample?

 

Has evolution bypassed this planet?

 

 

Well certainly things change.  We go through cycles which have peaks and troughs.  So we change all the time.

 

I’m not sure what ‘ my sample’ is supposed to mean.  Sample of what?

 

Evolution is not progressive - this is a common mistake - it is adaptive.  There is no progressive development except variety, and selection of adaptations.  It has no purpose at all except survival.

 

 

[Lairg]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 It has no purpose at all except survival.

 

Who made survival the purpose?

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

Who made survival the purpose?

 

No one 

[Lairg]

What is the process by which survival of the human race becomes the priority?

 

If that were really the priority surely humans would not keep killing each other

 

https://thirteen.space/27-types-of-extra-terrestrial-beings/

 

[stirling]

14 minutes ago, Lairg said:

What is the process by which survival of the human race becomes the priority?

Imagination.

[Krenx]

54 minutes ago, Lairg said:

What is the process by which survival of the human race becomes the priority?

 

If that were really the priority surely humans would not keep killing each other

 

https://thirteen.space/27-types-of-extra-terrestrial-beings/

 

 

Self preservation, aggressive levels of conceit are some of the causes for people to kill one another. 

[Tommy]

14 minutes ago, Krenx said:

 

Self preservation, aggressive levels of conceit are some of the causes for people to kill one another. 

I have self preservation, and aggressive levels of conceit but I do not kill one another.

There must be something else involved. Just seen a video where an old army veteran shot and killed teenagers who busted down his door wearing masks and brandishing guns trying to rob the old man.  The parents tried to sue the veteran for killing their sons. Saying that their kids were only trying to rob him and they did not deserve to die. This makes me think of the old saying that no good deed goes unpunished. Sorry, must be my misconceptions

Edited 23 hours ago by Tommy

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Who made survival the purpose?

 

 

Gloria Gaynor . 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

No one 

 

 

But ..... But   ....  

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

What is the process by which survival of the human race becomes the priority?

 

If that were really the priority surely humans would not keep killing each other

 

https://thirteen.space/27-types-of-extra-terrestrial-beings/

 

 

 

 

What does the death of an individual have to with the survival of it's race ?    The death of the individual is how a race survives , a key mechanism  and how evolution works .

[steve]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

depending on the definition / concept of this 'mind' being talked about . . . and regarding that as the 'ultimate self ' .

 

This is perhaps the most important discernment in dzogchen.

What is the mind, what is its nature or essence, and how are the two distinguished and how do they relate to the self and ultimate reality?

The ways of teaching this can be complicated because different people require different things to "get it."

It's not a conceptual or intellectual definition because that is still the territory of the mind, which generally considers itself the only tool available for "understanding," not yet trusting anything outside of its realm, and yet not appreciating its own limitations when considering that which may be beyond its grasp. 

So there are several methods, often relying on simile and metaphor as well as meditative methods. 

This might be a topic for a different thread.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, steve said:

 

This is perhaps the most important discernment in dzogchen.

What is the mind, what is its nature or essence, and how are the two distinguished and how do they relate to the self and ultimate reality?

The ways of teaching this can be complicated because different people require different things to "get it."

It's not a conceptual or intellectual definition because that is still the territory of the mind, which generally considers itself the only tool available for "understanding," not yet trusting anything outside of its realm, and yet not appreciating its own limitations when considering that which may be beyond its grasp. 

 

Then  if one is considering its nature 'from beyond' or 'apart from' using the mind  (if that is what is meant )  then there must be a  faculty beyond or apart from mind to consider it ? or are you saying mind considers itself  (it doesnt look like you are saying that ) 

 

'' the nature of the mind and eventually identify with this as one's ultimate "self.''  so if mind is supposed to be identified as ultimate self , what is considering this  non conceptual or intellectual definition ? 

 

or maybe its just the syntax  you chose or my  misreading ? 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, steve said:

So there are several methods, often relying on simile and metaphor as well as meditative methods. 

 

Are not the first two,   products of the mind ?

 

 

9 hours ago, steve said:

This might be a topic for a different thread.

 

Yes. 

[steve]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Then  if one is considering its nature 'from beyond' or 'apart from' using the mind  (if that is what is meant )  then there must be a  faculty beyond or apart from mind to consider it ? or are you saying mind considers itself  (it doesnt look like you are saying that ) 

 

not from beyond or apart from, that's not what is meant.

the mind's nature is open and clear, the mind refers to all of the contents, perceptions, formations, activities, etc...

here's a brief excerpt from a Bön teaching that helps to distinguish -

 

As for recognizing the mind and the nature of mind:

Free of thoughts,

Becoming the base-of-all,

Neutral,

Possessing the potential to arise as anything without ceasing -

These four. The base-of-all is the nature of mind.

 

Recollected and aware,

Able to arise as anything whatsoever,

Liberated when released,

If allowed to settle, it mixes [with the base-of-all] -

These four. The intellect is the mind. 

 

The method is that you hear this teaching, try to understand the meaning as best you can, then actualize this understanding in practice, traditionally in an extended and isolated retreat. Then the teacher checks your understanding and corrects or guides as needed. 

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

'' the nature of the mind and eventually identify with this as one's ultimate "self.''  so if mind is supposed to be identified as ultimate self , what is considering this  non conceptual or intellectual definition ? 

 

 

mind is not the ultimate self

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

or maybe its just the syntax  you chose or my  misreading ? 

 

 

 probably, it's a tough subject to casually talk about, the vast majority of this process of "introduction to the nature of mind" is experiential practice, the metaphors, similes, examples, and descriptions are cognitive tools to help guide and correct when needed.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Are not the first two,   products of the mind ?

 

 

yes

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Yes. 

 

agree, I'll stop here