Chaos Magic

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Maybe it’s a generational thing - I was aware of chaos theory for at least a decade before Jurassic park.

 

Same here .... and I never went to see the movie either !   I have seen shorts on TV advertising it but never knew of the Chaos theory in it until this thread . 

[Nungali]

36 minutes ago, Apech said:

Is there any chance we can discuss chaos magic?

 

Does anyone have anything intelligent to say about it?

 

Yes .   We could focus   on this part of the definition  ;  '' the belief that belief itself is a tool to manipulate reality and that one can shift beliefs as needed to achieve goals. '

 

So, I assume , the  ritual system and 'paraphernalia '  of magick is geared towards cultural belief  ( hence different types of magick ;   from modern western, to 'Javanese'  to  Buddhist , etc . ) and relies on a stong 'set' in the psyche - which is why a lot of older western magick is in the 'theater ' of Christianity  (or its opposite , ie, 'demon based ' or 'sourced' ) .  That is , in this situation , it is firmly entrenched in the psyche and the belief system .

 

So can  ( and how can one  )  change or ;shift'  belief systems so as to have them so firmly entrenched in the psyche that thay have the same 'impact '  .   I doubt this part .  However , the issue of belief systems  'manipulating ' realty seems better explained by 'Daimonic Reality Theory'   ( ex Harpur ) seems more realistic .

 

I 'operate' sort of like that , but my belief systems only 'validly ' changed  ( ie, changed to a deep enough influence that they did 'manipulate' reality , after evidence accretion   -    ie . if you try something and get the same result many times , then its easier for the belief to become entrenched  in the psyche to be effective . 

 

Also it broaches the whole idea of inner Vs outer influence . 

 

What are your thoughts on that ? 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Yes .   We could focus   on this part of the definition  ;  '' the belief that belief itself is a tool to manipulate reality and that one can shift beliefs as needed to achieve goals. '

 

That is interesting.  Although one could question the idea of deliberate rather than inspired belief, to the extent that the person doing the operation must struggle to convince themself that they really believe something they have deliberately set up.  However you could argue that all belief is like this, it is an act of will, a choice to believe.  That this initial belief may be reinforced by pragmatic testing such that, if the results work for you, your confidence and thus belief strengthens as you go.

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

So, I assume , the  ritual system and 'paraphernalia '  of magick is geared towards cultural belief  ( hence different types of magick ;   from modern western, to 'Javanese'  to  Buddhist , etc . ) and relies on a stong 'set' in the psyche - which is why a lot of older western magick is in the 'theater ' of Christianity  (or its opposite , ie, 'demon based ' or 'sourced' ) .  That is , in this situation , it is firmly entrenched in the psyche and the belief system .

 

Agreed.

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

So can  ( and how can one  )  change or ;shift'  belief systems so as to have them so firmly entrenched in the psyche that thay have the same 'impact '  .   I doubt this part .  However , the issue of belief systems  'manipulating ' realty seems better explained by 'Daimonic Reality Theory'   ( ex Harpur ) seems more realistic .

 

 

I can see belief shaping reality and as I suggested above perhaps this is what we always do (?)

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

I 'operate' sort of like that , but my belief systems only 'validly ' changed  ( ie, changed to a deep enough influence that they did 'manipulate' reality , after evidence accretion   -    ie . if you try something and get the same result many times , then its easier for the belief to become entrenched  in the psyche to be effective . 

 

Also it broaches the whole idea of inner Vs outer influence . 

 

What are your thoughts on that ? 

I think that knowledge is hermeneutical in that it is about how we interpret reality to ourselves.  So that two things may operate together.  If we practice trial and error pragmatism then faith and confidence come from a kind of higher empiricism.  When I was young I was kind of obsessed with this idea … that it must work… be effective and not just philosophical or religious.  But I think also that for instance if there is a HGA then this must operate from the beginning.  In other words a higher power guides your hand even if you know it not.  So for high magic it is more like revealing the truth rather than manufacturing it.  You may think you are inventing beliefs without being fully conscious of what it is that attracts you to them in the first place if you see what I mean.

 

 

[Sanity Check]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

Is there any chance we can discuss chaos magic?

 

Does anyone have anything intelligent to say about it?

 

 

Hmm.

 

In terms of magic, spiritualism and history I think there are many clues which are concealed in plain sight.

 

People look at these clues everyday and do not see them.

 

Relevant things have become defined in generic mainstream terminology making it difficult to rationalize them in terms of 1st principles.

 

Demons, magic, God. These things are terrifying. Resulting in a high percentage of terminology and theories regarding them being coping mechanisms designed to distance oneself from them, to put up walls between individuals and magic, etc.

 

If real magic exists it might revolve around tearing down walls distancing ourselves from things like magic. Like walmart eliminating supply chains, the middlemen used to distance oneself from magic are eliminated. 

 

But I'm currently not interested in these topics beyond basic curiosity and self defense purposes.

 

When I was young I was very interested. But there was no path to me learning or knowing anything about it. No one I trusted enough to learn anything from.

 

As I got older interest waned until it reached a point of apathy & indifference.

 

Now topics like these are more like a crossword puzzle or scavenger hunt. Its interesting to see what can be learned and known. But aside from that there may not be much real world application.

Edited 19 hours ago by Sanity Check

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

That is interesting.  Although one could question the idea of deliberate rather than inspired belief, to the extent that the person doing the operation must struggle to convince themself that they really believe something they have deliberately set up.  However you could argue that all belief is like this, it is an act of will, a choice to believe.  That this initial belief may be reinforced by pragmatic testing such that, if the results work for you, your confidence and thus belief strengthens as you go.

Agreed.

 

I can see belief shaping reality and as I suggested above perhaps this is what we always do (?)

 

yes, to an extent , but the reference to 'magick ' and 'Daimonic Reality ' supposes something .....   'against common consensual reality ' , ie  we make happen or    watch / observe something  , we  dont normally  do , that has 'limited consensual reality '  ... and example of that is many of us don not 'believe in UFOs (until recently    )   but small groups (limited consensual reality ) affirm they have seen them and seen the same thing as each other was seeing . 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

I think that knowledge is hermeneutical in that it is about how we interpret reality to ourselves.  So that two things may operate together.  If we practice trial and error pragmatism then faith and confidence come from a kind of higher empiricism.  When I was young I was kind of obsessed with this idea … that it must work… be effective and not just philosophical or religious.

 

Which is  branch of Magick Crowley touted ;   'Scientific Illuminism '  ....  ' The method of science with the aim of religion ' .   hence the magical diary and record where experiments , rituals, meditations, etc should be written up , pretty much like a science experiment  (  Aim ,  Equipment , processes , record of event ( the 'working itself ' and what might have occurred during  and then any results as time goes on , and over time to collate and compare the record ) .

 

'' Let success be thy proof  ''   

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 But I think also that for instance if there is a HGA then this must operate from the beginning.  In other words a higher power guides your hand even if you know it not.

 

Oh ... there is !        I believe it  .  And there from the beginning ( most related ritual is about knowing that and having converse with it , evoking , yes but not 'evoking it into existence '  / 'creating it ' .  It seems to much a part of too many different cultures , in one way or another . 

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

 So for high magic it is more like revealing the truth rather than manufacturing it.  You may think you are inventing beliefs without being fully conscious of what it is that attracts you to them in the first place if you see what I mean.

 

 

 

Yes.  A lot of magick  is an 'unveiling '   and it should (  according to the 'Old Boy ' ) have such elements of Buddhist and Hindu realizations about the nature of mind . 

 

By the way ... the proceeds and resultant papers of the above 'Scientific Illuminism ' approach and research ( and results ) or just papers or philosophies gleaned from the process (as well as more intellectual works )  get collated and shared in 'The Collage of Hermetic Philosopher '  -   on examining a lot of the work  and attempting to answer the question .... is it internal projection  or external forces  , the official pronouncement on that  was  ( back then )  ' .... we are not yet  ready to say , one or the other ' 

 

Thats because ( I reckon , as in many cases ) its a bit of both .

[bradley]

One aspect of Liber Null that resonated with me was the use of laughter. Do other magical systems incorporate anything like this, or is it specific to Chaos Magic? It’s amazing how liberating laughter can be.

 

Quote: Consider laughter: it is the highest emotion, for it can contain any of the others from ecstasy to grief. It is its own opposite. Crying is merely an underdeveloped form of it which cleanses the eyes and summons assistance to infants. Laughter is the only tenable attitude in a universe which is a joke played upon itself. The trick is to see that joke played out even in the neutral and ghastly events which surround one. It is not for us to question the universe’s apparent lack of taste. Seek the emotion of laughter at what delights and amuses, seek it in whatever is neutral or meaningless, seek it even in what is horrific and revolting. Though it may be forced at first, one can learn to smile inwardly at all things.

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, bradley said:

One aspect of Liber Null that resonated with me was the use of laughter. Do other magical systems incorporate anything like this, or is it specific to Chaos Magic?

 

Crowley advocated it as a remedy to 'spiritual pride'   ; 

 

AI Overview

 

 

 

Aleister Crowley wrote that laughter is a remedy against spiritual pride because the "bitter earnestness of the man amid the grim humour" of the world is mocking and that "the Powers of Good themselves seem to indulge" in it

. He believed that the "irony of the whole strife" could be seen through the mockery, making it a useful tool against spiritual pride. 

• The mockery and the irony in life are fascinating aspects of the human experience, according to Crowley.
• He believed that these feelings can be overwhelming and that laughter is a necessary tool to keep things in perspective, particularly when dealing with spiritual matters.
• He noted that a certain "grim humour" or "cacchination" (loud, boisterous laughter) exists in the world, and that even "the Powers of Good" seem to share in the mockery, which is what makes the whole strife so ironic.
• Crowley saw this irony as a way to combat spiritual pride, as it brings the individual back to a sense of humility and perspective

 

 

 

11 hours ago, bradley said:

 

 

 

It’s amazing how liberating laughter can be.

 

Quote: Consider laughter: it is the highest emotion, for it can contain any of the others from ecstasy to grief. It is its own opposite. Crying is merely an underdeveloped form of it which cleanses the eyes and summons assistance to infants. Laughter is the only tenable attitude in a universe which is a joke played upon itself. The trick is to see that joke played out even in the neutral and ghastly events which surround one. It is not for us to question the universe’s apparent lack of taste. Seek the emotion of laughter at what delights and amuses, seek it in whatever is neutral or meaningless, seek it even in what is horrific and revolting. Though it may be forced at first, one can learn to smile inwardly at all things.

 

 

 

 

Next time I am called out on my 'bad sense of humor '  I shall explain how I am only following the example of the  Universe  . 

 

[Cadcam]

On 11/28/2025 at 3:21 PM, Nungali said:

 

No, its nothing like that .  

 

Although it might be for you .

 

 

is it 'spiritual awareness '  or   'innocence '  or  '   NOT being obscured ' ... or perhaps even  NOT   having a dose of  ;

 

''  a lack of clarity or insight, particularly regarding one's understanding of an object or emotion.^[1] (2) The mental hindrances or veils that cloud understanding and perception, preventing one from seeing the true nature of things.^[ ''

 

.

 

 

 

You're the one who is wrong. Chaos Magick can be anything.

[Lairg]

When a performance attracts the Muses, the performance is music.  When the Muses do not come, Wagner called those tonal performances 

 

When a Mage does something with intent, the action is magic.