Chaos Magic

[Sanity Check]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

I think you might find the dates reflect when the wiki article was written.  If you read the article it says that Chaos magic started in the 70’s in England.

 

 

 

That's exactly what people say.

 

When they don't want to admit their terminology was influenced by books and movies about dinosaurs.

 

 

[Tim the enchanter]

Apologies if I am repeating anything here, a bit late to the party but tried to have a good read through. I spent a lot of years in this scene and most chaos magicians would describe it as a type of paradigm surfing, as in imagine that the sky is green for a day and work with that and see the results, then jump to something else. But in reality when the rubber meets the road it appears to be more just an eclectic system and has the pop culture aspect where you can work with pop culture spirits and artifacts. My favourite book on the subject is Hands on Chaos Magic by Andrieh Vitimus. It still suffers from the same issue as most other Western magic systems as it lacks a body method to safely channel and ground energy which is where I place myself in the Tai Chi/Qigong world, supporting occultists in this way.

 

Just a little aside on the subject of the HGA; if you haven't seen it watch the movie 'A Dark Song', it's a fictionalised take on the Abramelin ritual. One of the most powerful endings to a movie I've ever seen, still absolutely blown away by it and have to take a while to gather myself after watching.

 

Happy Saturday all!

[forestofclarity]

I see it more as a meta-theory about how magic works. Basically, it puts the center of power in the individual instead of external authorities or powers, such as God, gods, planets, archons, correspondences, etc. So if you can invoke a proper state of mind summoning Cthulhu, it doesn't matter whether or not here is an external being that matches it. 

 

I don't think it (or any magical system) generally works because I don't think most people honestly think it will work. I think the mental habits need to be a bit more fluid than average. 

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I see it more as a meta-theory about how magic works. Basically, it puts the center of power in the individual instead of external authorities or powers, such as God, gods, planets, archons, correspondences, etc. So if you can invoke a proper state of mind summoning Cthulhu, it doesn't matter whether or not here is an external being that matches it. 

 

I don't think it (or any magical system) generally works because I don't think most people honestly think it will work. I think the mental habits need to be a bit more fluid than average. 

Vajrayana is a magical system 

[Taomeow]

15 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 So if you can invoke a proper state of mind summoning Cthulhu, it doesn't matter whether or not here is an external being that matches it. 

 

I'm reminded of a character that believed exactly that -- and came out of many adversities just fine

 

 

 

[Lairg]

20 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

it puts the center of power in the individual instead of external authorities or powers, such as God, gods, planets, archons, correspondences, etc.

 

It may be better to consider that both options are true.  If so, proper (clean) relationships may be required with all parties relevant to the proposed actions.

 

  

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

Pop culture books and films do it better.

 

 

 

How do you mean  'better '  ?   

 

 Constantly , as you use them for references , numerous people here have pointed out how your  ' harvested knowledge ' from them is  either down right wrong  or based on fantasy . 

 

 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

There's a wiki page of chaos magic here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic

 

Looking at its citations:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic#References

 

There appear to be only two brief mentions of chaos magic in 1974 and 1987.

 

The vast majority of content written on the topic is 2003 and later.

 

Almost as if Jurassic Park's chaos theory reference was what was needed for it to go mainstream.

 

 

Yes, thats right ....   all the dynamics that made chaos magic appear  and grow in popularity are non existent  .... it was all due to Jurassic Park ......   because you  think so  . 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

That's exactly what people say.

 

When they don't want to admit their terminology was influenced by books and movies about dinosaurs.

 

 

 

 

[S:C]

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

is a magical system

isn’t anything ‚magical‘ if you haven‘t had it in a while? 

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, S:C said:

isn’t anything ‚magical‘ if you haven‘t had it in a while? 

 

 

No .  

 

I haven't had spam in a while  .

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Tim the enchanter said:

Apologies if I am repeating anything here, a bit late to the party but tried to have a good read through. I spent a lot of years in this scene and most chaos magicians would describe it as a type of paradigm surfing, as in imagine that the sky is green for a day and work with that and see the results, then jump to something else. But in reality when the rubber meets the road it appears to be more just an eclectic system and has the pop culture aspect where you can work with pop culture spirits and artifacts. My favourite book on the subject is Hands on Chaos Magic by Andrieh Vitimus. It still suffers from the same issue as most other Western magic systems as it lacks a body method to safely channel and ground energy which is where I place myself in the Tai Chi/Qigong world, supporting occultists in this way.

 

Just a little aside on the subject of the HGA; if you haven't seen it watch the movie 'A Dark Song', it's a fictionalised take on the Abramelin ritual. One of the most powerful endings to a movie I've ever seen, still absolutely blown away by it and have to take a while to gather myself after watching.

 

Happy Saturday all!

 

I just read the wiki article on that film 

 

... JEEZE those two made a mess of that ritual ..... added weird stuff and let their base natures interfere with the working . 

 

A sometimes common occurrence !  

 

AND I am not surprised ..... this ritual is a DUD  !  IMO    .... a sacred operation invoking God by prayer and your Holy Guardian angel , resulting in making talismans to  cause war , raise the dead , find treasure ... see naked maidens   etc  .  

 

... and these 'talismans'   and results are part of the original text ( in both the German and French  versions )  - not later additions .

[Tim the enchanter]

24 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I just read the wiki article on that film 

 

... JEEZE those two made a mess of that ritual ..... added weird stuff and let their base natures interfere with the working . 

 

A sometimes common occurrence !  

 

AND I am not surprised ..... this ritual is a DUD  !  IMO    .... a sacred operation invoking God by prayer and your Holy Guardian angel , resulting in making talismans to  cause war , raise the dead , find treasure ... see naked maidens   etc  .  

 

... and these 'talismans'   and results are part of the original text ( in both the German and French  versions )  - not later additions .

I was out when I found out how long the ritual takes. Haven't got the concentration power, too much doom scrolling 

Obviously the movie takes liberties with the ritual to facilitate the story such as it being done over days rather than months. I'm sure I've heard it mentioned that there were examples of people in real life that had completed it at the same time as holding down a job. That's commitment, hope it was worth it!

[Apech]

2 hours ago, S:C said:

isn’t anything ‚magical‘ if you haven‘t had it in a while? 

 

 

I'm not sure what you are implying I haven't had in a while 

 

Just to clarify ... vajrayana is quite hermetic (with a small H)

 

theurgy = sadhanas

astrology = auspicious days and years, planetary influences etc.

alchemy = internal mixing of winds, substances etc.

 

... also channeling by oracles and divination.

 

Buddhist monks also practiced magic from the earliest times (despite what they would have you believe).

 

 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

How do you mean  'better '  ?   

 

 Constantly , as you use them for references , numerous people here have pointed out how your  ' harvested knowledge ' from them is  either down right wrong  or based on fantasy . 

 

 

 

 

 

Look, the universe answered your question.

 

Before you had even asked it:

 

 

8 hours ago, Tim the enchanter said:

 

Just a little aside on the subject of the HGA; if you haven't seen it watch the movie 'A Dark Song', it's a fictionalised take on the Abramelin ritual. One of the most powerful endings to a movie I've ever seen, still absolutely blown away by it and have to take a while to gather myself after watching.

 

Happy Saturday all!

 

[Sanity Check]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yes, thats right ....   all the dynamics that made chaos magic appear  and grow in popularity are non existent  .... it was all due to Jurassic Park ......   because you  think so  . 

 

 

 

Stories matter.

 

Cultures like japan are heavily influenced by stories about robots, science, engineering and technology.

 

For decades, americans have tried to recreate that type of pop culture movement in the USA. In an effort to encourage youth to be more interested in science & tech. To avoid having to outsource a high percentage of R & D to places like israel, japan, india, etc.

 

I seem to remember Aleister Crowley criticizing others in the movement for "playing at magic". 

 

If Crowley were still alive maybe he would laugh his ass off at modern day magicians who might have derived their core terminology from children's dinosaur movies. 

 

The idea of magic users possibly borrowing terminology from Jurassic Park -- makes me laugh. It doesn't matter to me if its true or not. It makes me laugh. And that's all I care about it.

[Sanity Check]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

AND I am not surprised ..... this ritual is a DUD  !  IMO

 

 

 

I'm shocked and surprised we agree on something.

 

I might watch the movie "A Dark Song" eventually.

 

Why would a christian watch that?

 

In an effort to avoid being illiterate or uninformed.

 

 

[Sanity Check]

5 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

I see it more as a meta-theory about how magic works. Basically, it puts the center of power in the individual instead of external authorities or powers, such as God, gods, planets, archons, correspondences, etc. So if you can invoke a proper state of mind summoning Cthulhu, it doesn't matter whether or not here is an external being that matches it. 

 

I don't think it (or any magical system) generally works because I don't think most people honestly think it will work. I think the mental habits need to be a bit more fluid than average. 

 

 

Interesting.

[stirling]

25 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Why would a christian watch that?

 

In an effort to avoid being illiterate or uninformed.

 

Why wouldn't a Christian watch it? 

[Sanity Check]

9 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Why wouldn't a Christian watch it? 

 

 

 

(They would consider it leaning too much on one's own understanding of things.)

 

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

-Proverbs 3:5

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

Look, the universe answered your question.

 

Before you had even asked it:

 

 

 

 

... and 'somehow'  you think this is some type of proof that Chaos Magick came about due to Jurassic Park 

 

Hoooooooooo   -   boy  !  

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Stories matter.

 

Cultures like japan are heavily influenced by stories about robots, science, engineering and technology.

 

For decades, americans have tried to recreate that type of pop culture movement in the USA. In an effort to encourage youth to be more interested in science & tech. To avoid having to outsource a high percentage of R & D to places like israel, japan, india, etc.

 

and ... so ?    Are you implying Jurassic Park was a government set up to get people interested in Chaos Magick 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

I seem to remember Aleister Crowley criticizing others in the movement for "playing at magic". 

 

If Crowley were still alive maybe he would laugh his ass off at modern day magicians who might have derived their core terminology from children's dinosaur movies. 

 

Except those types would be you , wouldn't they ?   Yes, he would laugh his head off at your 'logic' and 'research' .

 

 

4 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

The idea of magic users possibly borrowing terminology from Jurassic Park -- makes me laugh. It doesn't matter to me if its true or not. It makes me laugh. And that's all I care about it.

 

 

Yes. and the above nonsense made me laugh too  !  

 

Here is another laugh from Crowley for you  ( although, of course, they never had TV back then  , so .....  ): 

 

Old Mother Hubbard, who goes to the cupboard to get her dog a bone is perhaps one of those tales. 

"Who is this ancient and venerable mother of whom it is spoken? Verily she is no other than Binah, as is evident in the use of the holy letter H with which her name begins.

 

"Nor is she the sterile Mother Ama -- but the fertile Aima; for within he she bears Vau, the son, for the second letter of her name, and R, the penultimate, is the Sun, Tiphareth, the Son.

"The other three letters of her name, B, A, and D, are the three paths which join the supernals.

"To what cupboard did she go? Even to the most secret caverns of the Universe. And who is this dog? Is it not the name of God spelt Qabalistically backwards? And what is this bone? The bone is the Wand, the holy Lingam!

"The complete interpretation of the rune is now open. This rime is the legend of the murder of Osiris by Typhon.

"The limbs of Osiris were scattered in the Nile.

"Isis sought them in every corner of the Universe, and she found all
except his sacred lingam..."

 

Little Bo Peep:

"Bo" is the root meaning Light, form which spring forth such words as Bo-Tree, Bodhisattva, and Buddha.

"And "Peep" is Apep, the serpent Apophis. THis poem therefore contains the same symbol as that in the Egyptian and Hebrew Bibles."

"The snake is the serpent of Initiation, as the Lamb is the Saviour.

"This ancient one, the Wisdom of Eternity, sits in its old anguish awaiting the Redeemer. And this holy verse triumphantly assures us that there is no need for anxiety. The Saviours will come after the other, at their own good pleasure, and as they may be needed, and drag their tails, that is to say those who follow out their holy commandment, to the ultimate goal."

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

(They would consider it leaning too much on one's own understanding of things.)

 

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

-Proverbs 3:5

 

 

 

 

So that is what is going with you !   

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

So that is what is going with you !   

 

 

What is going on with me?
 

Its only basic evolution.

 

Nothing you need ever worry your silly head about.

[S:C]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

Just to clarify

My comment was directed at perception / observation and interpretation thereof in general concerning the thread topic. It might have been better to have asked, if ‘magical’ isn’t always an ‘subjective interpretation’?

When one feels ‘in sync’ with natural surroundings an inside feeling might coincide with outside happenings. Some would ascribe this to religion or alike, if a God Beeing is missing in their worldview. E.g. when it starts to snow when it hasn’t in a while and that falls into place with a feeling you haven’t had for a long time. Or recognizing a double rainbow at an ancient place above you after an emotional experience.

 

I’m very sorry you took my comment personal, that wasn’t intended. I just reflected upon own observations, and you and Cobie might scould me (again) for being so unobservant to other’s possible experience and perceptions. Apologies!
 

And thanks for clarifying: I wasn’t aware the sincere traditional Buddhists are as ‘playful’ as to consider such a subjective interpretation of events as their path. I always thought they were foremost going for ‘objectivity’ or oneness without suffering. Not personal peace with another person through connection.

But that was indeed an element I hadn’t thought about. If that is indeed a solid traditional interpretation of what this branch of Buddhism is about, I am glad to know that now.
So Vajrayana is a special way of subjective ‘connecting’ and interpreting? I might pm you about this question as it strays from the topic, even if it were a ancient tradition thereof.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by S:C