Chaos Magic

[Nungali]

Supposedly it is a non traditional system , based on efficacy of results, eclectic ,  and personalized . 

 

Does this not make virtually every modern practicing magician a Chaos magician ?   Unless they are some rigidly practicing following by rote some  medieval  manuscript ... and having the mind set to go along with that . 

 

The definition seems to favor Spare yet divorce Crowley ???    He certainly bent the traditions ,    threw out a lot of stuff he considered 'non - working'  or based on false premises  ( although experimented with traditional stuff ) , was certainly and his system was certainly eclectic .... widely eclectic.   And of course highly personalized ... extremely so .... even to the extent that he wrote about that , encouraged people to develop their own personalized system from varied sources ... to the extent that he threatened them against copying his personalizations , saying it would backfire on them  and they might take on his worse qualities if they did such 'imitation '  . 

 

Even the staid  Goldern Dawn made such innovations . 

 

So is Chaos magic really a 'thing'  .... or mostly a designation  put onto recent magic that is somewhat fashionable  and cool ?   if it isnt ... what system of modern magick  is not Chaos magick ? 

[stirling]

I'd love to pretend that I have anything really useful to say on this topic, but I can't. In the 80's I had read Crowley's biography, his novel "Moonchild", some other materials, and Golden Dawn stuff. I came across the concept of "Chaos Magic" late last year in a Buddhist podcast interview, somewhere.

 

It is something that crossed my radar from left-field and was a brief source of interest. My research included most of the books by Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford (some of which didn't make complete logically sense to me, or seemed to be what I call "sideways spelunking" rather than direct climbing out of the cavern of delusion), Chapman's "Advanced Magick for Beginners", as well as "Liber Null & Psychonaut: An Introduction to Chaos Magic", and "Liber Chaos" by Peter J. Carroll.

 

Whether it is entirely something new wouldn't particularly matter to me... it's real appeal was its accessibility, simplicity, and efficacy.

 

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If there is an underlying oneness of all things, it does not matter where we begin, whether with stars, or laws of supply and demand, or frogs, or Napoleon Bonaparte. One measures a circle, beginning anywhere. -  Charles Fort, Lo!

 

[stirling]

Your questions e.g. the Holy Guardian Angel:

 

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A technical point  .......   you say  'summoning '  ...  and you 'saw' 

 

But they say .... and the  tradition says  .....  'knowledge and conversation '   .... very different things between those two . 

 

....   did you take the sword  ?  

 

I did the ritual, and had the visit. 

 

The knowledge and conversation, if I understand correctly, are the "union" with the HGA - somewhat redundant in my case as "union" is seen now as just the reality and always present deeper nature of how things are. 

 

Yes, I took the sword, I held my hands out and closed my eyes. I had the sense of pressure on my hands. After a few minutes I dared to look and the vision with the sword had disappeared. 

 

Some questions for you, if you feel qualified to answer:

 

Is this something you (or anyone you have met) has had REAL success with? 

 

Would you agree with Chapman/Barford that the HGA is a perfected version of "you" from the "future" here to guide you to enlightenement (paraphrasing here). 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

Your questions e.g. the Holy Guardian Angel:

 

 

I did the ritual, and had the visit. 

 

The knowledge and conversation, if I understand correctly, are the "union" with the HGA - somewhat redundant in my case as "union" is seen now as just the reality and always present deeper nature of how things are. 

 

Yes, I took the sword, I held my hands out and closed my eyes. I had the sense of pressure on my hands. After a few minutes I dared to look and the vision with the sword had disappeared. 

 

Some questions for you, if you feel qualified to answer:

 

Is this something you (or anyone you have met) has had REAL success with? 

 

Its hard to say   as   1)  people's claims seem relevant to themselves ,    so success ....will likewise seem relevant to the self view.  and 2) the case of definition of what actually   HGA  is  *   and  3) .   'Knowledge of '  seems very different to  'converse with '  and   any 'converse' , especially on this level ( ie.  not the 'normal everyday level of consciousness ' ) ,  might be subtle , symbolic , etc . 

 

*  according to Crowley its a  name he got from the Book of Abramelin   which  he applied   .  he equated it with 'genius' and 'daimon' of the ancient Greeks  although in his version it is an objective  individual and not just our 'higher nature' . 

 

The ancient Greeks (and Romans )  seem split on various ideas  about this  ( I lean towards the Socratic view ) regarding them as  either 'indwelling' or attendant '    and have relationship to  character , personality ,  aspirations and inspirations and  inner spiritual and outer material  guidance . 

 

To me it seems a mixture of these forces .... or ,    that  is our perception from 'here ' . 

 

If I am flexible with the definitions  I feel I have had definite success with communication  but many would say  ' That was not your HGA ' - however  some Greek sources believe the 'daimon' to be a soul of a person from their 'Golden Age '  who 'watched over'  you . This seems to go along with some old Zoroastrian concepts  ( the origin of a lot of 'spirituality '  in Crowley's system )  where  good people from the past may assign themselves  ( or part of their function )  to come back / visit certain people to   give advice and assistance  and to work as a 'bridge' between yourself in this life and the 'other side'  -  which seemed to be the case for me .  Also it goes along with a few different traditional origins 

 

So, if one sees it as a 'higher self'   OF oneself , then  that might be something other than HGA  ( and there are a few higher levels of 'self' ) . But if it IS an objective outside  influence to  guide and direct and converse with and get advice , then I feel I have had immense success ,  and that seems to go along with the view of what was meant by it  (as opposed to what was injected into the concept later ; higher self ) .  Sometimes there seems a 'shadowy collective ' in the background , but converse has definitely been  by  one particular one . 

 

There is also subtle guidance    that results in luck, fortune and other things .... behind the scenes , as it were , that is , not being aware of process , just the outcome  ... which can result in the 'magician'    having the appearance of    ' pure arse '    . Its difficult to say what is behind that . 

 

eg  ;   pure arse is like when our lawyer was happy but incredulous how 'fate' kept constantly coming to my assistance  in our court case : ''Its like , they ( the prosecutors )  push you in a river , you fall and stumble, landing on a stepping stone and career from one stone to the other and land on the other side, on a silk cushion, with a cocktail in your hand  '      

 

people have often been exasperated by my  'pure arse ' at times      

 

 

19 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Would you agree with Chapman/Barford that the HGA is a perfected version of "you" from the "future" here to guide you to enlightenement (paraphrasing here). 

 

 

Definitely not . 

[stirling]

Thank you for your long and detailed reply. I'll see if I can come back with one myself:

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Its hard to say   as   1)  people's claims seem relevant to themselves ,    so success ....will likewise seem relevant to the self view.  and 2) the case of definition of what actually   HGA  is  *   and  3) .   'Knowledge of '  seems very different to  'converse with '  and   any 'converse' , especially on this level ( ie.  not the 'normal everyday level of consciousness ' ) ,  might be subtle , symbolic , etc .

 

 

Agreed on all counts. There has never been any conversation in the conventional sense in my visions, and this was no different, though more thoroughly real almost any of the others, and most certainly fitting the bill of angelic in a strange, dusty, time and space forgotten forever kind of way. Yes, the sword fits the bill... one of a number I have been handed. It makes no particular sense to me, and has no top-of-consciousness resonance. 

 

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*  according to Crowley its a  name he got from the Book of Abramelin   which  he applied   .  he equated it with 'genius' and 'daimon' of the ancient Greeks  although in his version it is an objective  individual and not just our 'higher nature' . 

 

I have been calling it a "Logos", which fits right in there in its way. Makes sense.

 

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The ancient Greeks (and Romans )  seem split on various ideas  about this  ( I lean towards the Socratic view ) regarding them as  either 'indwelling' or attendant '    and have relationship to  character , personality ,  aspirations and inspirations and  inner spiritual and outer material  guidance . 

 

It isn't anything internal, in my opinion, though some would argue that ALL of this internal. The subconscious is a man-made construct that I don't buy anymore. What makes the most sense to me is that it is a symbolic representation of perfected "beingness" as an illusory separate construct, and therefore naturally having some inaccuracy. 

 

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To me it seems a mixture of these forces .... or ,    that  is our perception from 'here ' .

 

I agree with your second idea. 

 

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If I am flexible with the definitions  I feel I have had definite success with communication  but many would say  ' That was not your HGA ' - however  some Greek sources believe the 'daimon' to be a soul of a person from their 'Golden Age '  who 'watched over'  you . This seems to go along with some old Zoroastrian concepts  ( the origin of a lot of 'spirituality '  in Crowley's system )  where  good people from the past may assign themselves  ( or part of their function )  to come back / visit certain people to   give advice and assistance  and to work as a 'bridge' between yourself in this life and the 'other side'  -  which seemed to be the case for me .  Also it goes along with a few different traditional origins

 

I think how it appears (or if it does at all) depends upon how clear your ability to see is in relation to your obscurations. By obscurations I am referring to:

 

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From: Tattvasangraha [with commentary]

(1) A state that implies a lack of clarity or insight, particularly regarding one's understanding of an object or emotion.^[1] (2) The mental hindrances or veils that cloud understanding and perception, preventing one from seeing the true nature of things.^[2]

 

https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/obscuration

 

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So, if one sees it as a 'higher self'   OF oneself , then  that might be something other than HGA  ( and there are a few higher levels of 'self' ) . But if it IS an objective outside  influence to  guide and direct and converse with and get advice , then I feel I have had immense success ,  and that seems to go along with the view of what was meant by it  (as opposed to what was injected into the concept later ; higher self ) .  Sometimes there seems a 'shadowy collective ' in the background , but converse has definitely been  by  one particular one . 

 

Yeah... I dunno. Higher "self" doesn't make any real sense from my perspective, except possibly in symbolic terms. I can't attribute any particular depth of understanding to the encounter, which isn't to say that deepening of seeing into emptiness doesn't happen all the time.

 

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There is also subtle guidance    that results in luck, fortune and other things .... behind the scenes , as it were , that is , not being aware of process , just the outcome  ... which can result in the 'magician'    having the appearance of    ' pure arse '    . Its difficult to say what is behind that . 

 

eg  ;   pure arse is like when our lawyer was happy but incredulous how 'fate' kept constantly coming to my assistance  in our court case : ''Its like , they ( the prosecutors )  push you in a river , you fall and stumble, landing on a stepping stone and career from one stone to the other and land on the other side, on a silk cushion, with a cocktail in your hand  '      

 

I find that this comes where there is less trying to conspire and contrive reality and more accepting and surrendering to what seems to want to happen, or alignment with the Tao. My teacher tells me that those with insight are "taken care of" meaning that minor miracles and synchronicities seem to occur, and things just tend to work out - not winning the lottery, or anything, but a more general simple good fortune. 

 

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people have often been exasperated by my  'pure arse ' at times   

 

The devil you say!

 

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Definitely not . 

 

I suppose I don't think so either, now that I really talk it through. 

 

I'll just say, I think anyone who has the inclination and can hold a belief lightly should try this experiment, summoning often, earnestly and with good intentions to be of benefit to others. It certainly convinced me that magic is possible and does work if there is no clinging to outcomes. It would probably be even more beneficial to someone who hasn't already travelled so far in another tradition. 

 

What other workings would you recommend that might be synergistic, beneficial or build on success with this one?

[Sanity Check]

On 11/26/2025 at 10:32 AM, Nungali said:

 

So is Chaos magic really a 'thing'  .... or mostly a designation  put onto recent magic that is somewhat fashionable  and cool ?   if it isnt ... what system of modern magick  is not Chaos magick ? 

 

 

 

 

The book Jurassic Park popularized something called chaos theory. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

 

A framework intended to explain things which are unexplainable by modern science.

 

I would guess chaos magic is a spinoff. Or was influenced by chaos theory in some way.

 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Sanity Check

[Cadcam]

It's a matter of channeling chaos and applying it with your mental/etherealic body, guided by your physical gestures. First you need a base of established order to observe, then you disturb that order with your mind, spirit and body.

 

On an advanced level, to reach the HGA, you need to have reached a point of awareness spiritually,  and have the right tools. For myself, all of this happened naturally, coincidentally, so I don't know if it's something you can academically pursue. There's so little written of accounts that you can't really say. 

[Lairg]

4 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

It's a matter of channeling chaos

 

My own observation of this universe is that it is not chaotic.  Energies belong to entities and the entities have purpose - even if misdirected.

 

A chaotic set of practices is likely to make few friends in the  Cosmos

 

 

[Apech]

6 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

The book Jurassic Park popularized something called chaos theory. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

 

A framework intended to explain things which are unexplainable by modern science.

 

I would guess chaos magic is a spinoff. Or was influenced by chaos theory in some way.

 

 

I don’t think there is any relation between chaos theory ad chaos magic apart from the name.

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

My own observation of this universe is that it is not chaotic.  Energies belong to entities and the entities have purpose - even if misdirected.

 

A chaotic set of practices is likely to make few friends in the  Cosmos

 

 

There are two types of chaos.  One is the pre- creational state which is formless and undefinable.  The other is the complexity of large numbers of things moving independently.  

[Lairg]

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

pre- creational state which is formless

 

My observation of the pre-creational is that it is structured and intentional - otherwise it would produce chaos

 

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

the complexity of large numbers of things moving independently.  

 

I tend to agree with Pythagoras when he told us that numbers are alive.  Certainly I felt numbers were  unhappy when misused in equations.

 

Number is conceived not as a mental abstraction but something which exists in and composes all things.

https://ba278b9d8106536501a2-57da1f3fe93ccf3a9828e6ce67c3d52c.ssl.cf5.rackcdn.com/ws_03_leonessi.pdf 

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

My observation of the pre-creational is that it is structured and intentional - otherwise it would produce chaos

 

 

I tend to agree with Pythagoras when he told us that numbers are alive.  Certainly I felt numbers were  unhappy when misused in equations.

 

Number is conceived not as a mental abstraction but something which exists in and composes all things.

https://ba278b9d8106536501a2-57da1f3fe93ccf3a9828e6ce67c3d52c.ssl.cf5.rackcdn.com/ws_03_leonessi.pdf 

I wasn’t talking about the nature of numbers but about how complex systems of large numbers of things ( eg raindrops hitting a windscreen) can be described.  As random and chaotic for instance.

[Sanity Check]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

I don’t think there is any relation between chaos theory ad chaos magic apart from the name.

 

 

Jurassic Park was published in 1990.

 

I don't think there is a written record of "chaos magic" preceding the year 2000.

 

It probably was influenced by Jurassic Park although they very much want to pretend its not.

[Apech]

49 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Jurassic Park was published in 1990.

 

I don't think there is a written record of "chaos magic" preceding the year 2000.

 

It probably was influenced by Jurassic Park although they very much want to pretend its not.

 

 

From Grok:

 

Chaos magic (also spelled "chaos magick") as a distinct modern magical paradigm first emerged in the late 1970s in West Yorkshire, England.Key milestones:

• 1976–1977: The foundational ideas began circulating in a loose group of occultists in Yorkshire. Early figures included Pete Carroll, Ray Sherwin, and others who were dissatisfied with the rigid hierarchies and dogmas of traditional magical orders (Golden Dawn, Thelema, Wicca, etc.).
• 1978: The first public statement of chaos magic principles appeared in Pete Carroll’s book Liber Null (published privately at first) and Ray Sherwin’s The Book of Results (also 1978). These two short works are considered the “founding texts” of chaos magic. In them, terms like “chaos magic,” the rejection of belief systems as tools rather than truths, and techniques like sigil magic derived from Austin Osman Spare were formalised.
• Late 1970s – early 1980s: The loose network called the Illuminates of Thanateros (IOT) was formed (initially as a mail-based pact in 1978–79), becoming the first formal chaos magic organisation.

So the commonly accepted “birth year” of chaos magic as a self-conscious movement is 1978, with the publication and private circulation of Liber Null and The Book of Results.(For context, Austin Osman Spare’s sigil techniques from the early 20th century and Discordianism in the 1960s are important precursors, but chaos magic proper begins in 1978 with Carroll, Sherwin, and their circle explicitly branding and systematising the approach.)

 

 

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

but about how complex systems of large numbers of things ( eg raindrops hitting a windscreen) can be described.  As random and chaotic for instance.

 

Humans like to think that they are the primary intelligence present.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, stirling said:

 

...

What other workings would you recommend that might be synergistic, beneficial or build on success with this one?

 

Do you mean other than the process  in the video ?   

 

I would recommend getting familiar with the concept in various traditions , examining  your  past  and looking for indications or experiences , and   ' if you will '   , there is Crowley's commentaries  but I dont recommend that  .... especially if  'give permission' and 'invoke often'   work anyway    

 

But then again , he ( Crowley )  'came to the knowledge ' about these things down an obscure path  and cited the Bornless Ritual  /  Liber Samekh  ....   urrrgh .... obscure !    *   .   Then again , easy for me to say .... who had one just appear to me and 'zap' me as a child  and then stay with me ever since . 

 

After further consideration and communication , I feel they are (or mine was )  'assigned '   and  is not   an 'ascended person ' that has 'taken me on '    ( I checked ... and got clearer on that   .... actually, after this a few things have become clearer    , so thanks for the stimulus to re-investigate  after  I had further experience . )

 

As far as this ' assigning of a spiritual assistant ' goes, I find the Urantia Book interesting on the subject ;

 

a quick AI scan : 

 

''According to The Urantia Book, guardian angels, or seraphim, are real and assigned to individuals to protect and minister to them, but they do not directly control human decisions or invade the mind. These celestial beings act as custodians of a person's soul-survival values and facilitate the best use of the life choices made by the individual, working to coordinate various spiritual influences surrounding them. A guardian seraphim is assigned when a person makes a supreme decision to live a Godlike life, ... ''

 

( makes the decision ,  calls, invokes .... )  

 

'' Role of the guardian angel

• Guardianship, not control: Guardian angels do not manipulate or control your will. Instead, they provide support and make the best possible use of the course you have chosen.
• Protection: 
• Coordination of influences: 
• While you must chart your own course, your guardian angel is present throughout the entire journey of life, and for many, this association continues even after death into the higher realms. 

In Zoroastrianism some consider that you are united with the angel   (  your 'Daena '  ) after death  and/or  it leads you through the immediate post death realms  . 

 

'' Daena embodies a person's moral conscience and the innate wisdom that helps one choose good over evil. It is the divine wisdom that guides an individual toward a life of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.

 

After death, Daena is a divine being that embodies a person's entire life of actions and spiritual choices. At the judgment, Daena appears to the soul at the Chinvat Bridge and guides it based on the sum of its deeds.

 

*  'obscure '   and not because I am not familiar with it or the system around it  , consider ; 

 

'' Today, the Bornless Invocation as a means to achieving the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel can be found in a wide range of practical manuals, both in printed form and online. As such, it is a remarkable testament to the entangled nature of Western Learned Magic. An exorcism once written down in fourth-century Egypt, obtained by the renowned collector and dealer of antiquities Givanni Anastasi and sold to the British Museum, found its way via an English translation edited for the Cambridge Antiquarian Society in 1852 into a highly secretive society, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, where it was reinterpreted as an invocation of the divine aspect of man, the genius or the Holy Guardian Angel. From there it appeared in print in an unlikely context, as a “Preliminary Invocation” to The Goetia, part of the infamous grimoire Clavicula Salomonis Regis. It was used by none other than the Great Beast 666, Aleister Crowley, on a daily basis in 1906 when he travelled across China, resulting in the “greatest event in his career”—the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel. Published again in 1929, the text was now reinvented as an official instruction for a new religious movement, Thelema, offering a new dispensation to mankind. In addition to this, the Bornless Invocation was conflated and entangled with the early modern grimoire tradition, through The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abra-Melin the Mage, and the concept of the Holy Guardian Angel. A strange adventure for a text. ''

 

https://er.ceres.rub.de/index.php/ER/article/view/10265/9934

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

The book Jurassic Park popularized something called chaos theory. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

 

If you want to find about Chaos theory ... yes , go Wikipedia at first and  dont rely on pop books and movies .

 

 

17 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

A framework intended to explain things which are unexplainable by modern science.

 

?   Ahhhh ,  no .  

 

It looks at underlying patterns  and laws of determination  within seemingly   chaotic systems  .  It also has a Daoist perspective in that it looks at how minuscule changes in the beginning  of a system can lead to immensely different outcomes - eventually . 

 

How that can have a Daoist perspective  ..... I'll leave that up to you to contemplate .

 

17 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

I would guess chaos magic is a spinoff. Or was influenced by chaos theory in some way.

 

 

 

Its more in the word meaning of chaos that 'they ' ( the founders  of 'Chaos Magick ' )  thought described their approach *  other than watching any pop film or reading a book  , and I doubt they even went into the theory .

 

*   The term "chaos"  ( in 'Chaos Magick ' ) signifies a fundamental opposition to strict, unchangeable rules and traditions found in many other belief systems.

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Cadcam said:

It's a matter of channeling chaos and applying it with your mental/etherealic body, guided by your physical gestures. First you need a base of established order to observe, then you disturb that order with your mind, spirit and body.

 

No, its nothing like that .  

 

Although it might be for you .

 

Quote

 

On an advanced level, to reach the HGA, you need to have reached a point of awareness spiritually,  and have the right tools. For myself, all of this happened naturally, coincidentally, so I don't know if it's something you can academically pursue. There's so little written of accounts that you can't really say. 

 

is it 'spiritual awareness '  or   'innocence '  or  '   NOT being obscured ' ... or perhaps even  NOT   having a dose of  ;

 

''  a lack of clarity or insight, particularly regarding one's understanding of an object or emotion.^[1] (2) The mental hindrances or veils that cloud understanding and perception, preventing one from seeing the true nature of things.^[ ''

 

.

 

 

 

Edited 21 minutes ago by Nungali

[Nungali]

... and of course one can pursue it '' academically ''   , regardless of whether it happened to you or I naturally or coincidentally . 

 

And although not many personal accounts exist , there is a lot of historical and modern writing  about the concepts involved .

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

I don’t think there is any relation between chaos theory ad chaos magic apart from the name.

 

Dont be to sure .... I am sure our Homer here  is familar with the concept ... sometimes  Chaos gets tired of Chaos and longs for some control  ; 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Jurassic Park was published in 1990.

 

I don't think there is a written record of "chaos magic" preceding the year 2000.

 

and Chaos Magick appeared in mid 1970s

 

You really need to give up on   this  ' learning ' from silly pop movies and gaming  thing you do . 

 

 

5 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

It probably was influenced by Jurassic Park although they very much want to pretend its not.

 

Why would they want to 'pretend' that ... even if you were right ?