Nungali Posted Wednesday at 08:32 PM Supposedly it is a non traditional system , based on efficacy of results, eclectic , and personalized . Does this not make virtually every modern practicing magician a Chaos magician ? Unless they are some rigidly practicing following by rote some medieval manuscript ... and having the mind set to go along with that . The definition seems to favor Spare yet divorce Crowley ??? He certainly bent the traditions , threw out a lot of stuff he considered 'non - working' or based on false premises ( although experimented with traditional stuff ) , was certainly and his system was certainly eclectic .... widely eclectic. And of course highly personalized ... extremely so .... even to the extent that he wrote about that , encouraged people to develop their own personalized system from varied sources ... to the extent that he threatened them against copying his personalizations , saying it would backfire on them and they might take on his worse qualities if they did such 'imitation ' . Even the staid Goldern Dawn made such innovations . So is Chaos magic really a 'thing' .... or mostly a designation put onto recent magic that is somewhat fashionable and cool ? if it isnt ... what system of modern magick is not Chaos magick ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted yesterday at 01:40 AM I'd love to pretend that I have anything really useful to say on this topic, but I can't. In the 80's I had read Crowley's biography, his novel "Moonchild", some other materials, and Golden Dawn stuff. I came across the concept of "Chaos Magic" late last year in a Buddhist podcast interview, somewhere. It is something that crossed my radar from left-field and was a brief source of interest. My research included most of the books by Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford (some of which didn't make complete logically sense to me, or seemed to be what I call "sideways spelunking" rather than direct climbing out of the cavern of delusion), Chapman's "Advanced Magick for Beginners", as well as "Liber Null & Psychonaut: An Introduction to Chaos Magic", and "Liber Chaos" by Peter J. Carroll. Whether it is entirely something new wouldn't particularly matter to me... it's real appeal was its accessibility, simplicity, and efficacy. Quote If there is an underlying oneness of all things, it does not matter where we begin, whether with stars, or laws of supply and demand, or frogs, or Napoleon Bonaparte. One measures a circle, beginning anywhere. - Charles Fort, Lo! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted yesterday at 01:57 AM Your questions e.g. the Holy Guardian Angel: Quote A technical point ....... you say 'summoning ' ... and you 'saw' But they say .... and the tradition says ..... 'knowledge and conversation ' .... very different things between those two . .... did you take the sword ? I did the ritual, and had the visit. The knowledge and conversation, if I understand correctly, are the "union" with the HGA - somewhat redundant in my case as "union" is seen now as just the reality and always present deeper nature of how things are. Yes, I took the sword, I held my hands out and closed my eyes. I had the sense of pressure on my hands. After a few minutes I dared to look and the vision with the sword had disappeared. Some questions for you, if you feel qualified to answer: Is this something you (or anyone you have met) has had REAL success with? Would you agree with Chapman/Barford that the HGA is a perfected version of "you" from the "future" here to guide you to enlightenement (paraphrasing here). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 14 hours ago 19 hours ago, stirling said: Your questions e.g. the Holy Guardian Angel: I did the ritual, and had the visit. The knowledge and conversation, if I understand correctly, are the "union" with the HGA - somewhat redundant in my case as "union" is seen now as just the reality and always present deeper nature of how things are. Yes, I took the sword, I held my hands out and closed my eyes. I had the sense of pressure on my hands. After a few minutes I dared to look and the vision with the sword had disappeared. Some questions for you, if you feel qualified to answer: Is this something you (or anyone you have met) has had REAL success with? Its hard to say as 1) people's claims seem relevant to themselves , so success ....will likewise seem relevant to the self view. and 2) the case of definition of what actually HGA is * and 3) . 'Knowledge of ' seems very different to 'converse with ' and any 'converse' , especially on this level ( ie. not the 'normal everyday level of consciousness ' ) , might be subtle , symbolic , etc . * according to Crowley its a name he got from the Book of Abramelin which he applied . he equated it with 'genius' and 'daimon' of the ancient Greeks although in his version it is an objective individual and not just our 'higher nature' . The ancient Greeks (and Romans ) seem split on various ideas about this ( I lean towards the Socratic view ) regarding them as either 'indwelling' or attendant ' and have relationship to character , personality , aspirations and inspirations and inner spiritual and outer material guidance . To me it seems a mixture of these forces .... or , that is our perception from 'here ' . If I am flexible with the definitions I feel I have had definite success with communication but many would say ' That was not your HGA ' - however some Greek sources believe the 'daimon' to be a soul of a person from their 'Golden Age ' who 'watched over' you . This seems to go along with some old Zoroastrian concepts ( the origin of a lot of 'spirituality ' in Crowley's system ) where good people from the past may assign themselves ( or part of their function ) to come back / visit certain people to give advice and assistance and to work as a 'bridge' between yourself in this life and the 'other side' - which seemed to be the case for me . Also it goes along with a few different traditional origins So, if one sees it as a 'higher self' OF oneself , then that might be something other than HGA ( and there are a few higher levels of 'self' ) . But if it IS an objective outside influence to guide and direct and converse with and get advice , then I feel I have had immense success , and that seems to go along with the view of what was meant by it (as opposed to what was injected into the concept later ; higher self ) . Sometimes there seems a 'shadowy collective ' in the background , but converse has definitely been by one particular one . There is also subtle guidance that results in luck, fortune and other things .... behind the scenes , as it were , that is , not being aware of process , just the outcome ... which can result in the 'magician' having the appearance of ' pure arse ' . Its difficult to say what is behind that . eg ; pure arse is like when our lawyer was happy but incredulous how 'fate' kept constantly coming to my assistance in our court case : ''Its like , they ( the prosecutors ) push you in a river , you fall and stumble, landing on a stepping stone and career from one stone to the other and land on the other side, on a silk cushion, with a cocktail in your hand ' people have often been exasperated by my 'pure arse ' at times 19 hours ago, stirling said: Would you agree with Chapman/Barford that the HGA is a perfected version of "you" from the "future" here to guide you to enlightenement (paraphrasing here). Definitely not . 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 13 hours ago Thank you for your long and detailed reply. I'll see if I can come back with one myself: 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Its hard to say as 1) people's claims seem relevant to themselves , so success ....will likewise seem relevant to the self view. and 2) the case of definition of what actually HGA is * and 3) . 'Knowledge of ' seems very different to 'converse with ' and any 'converse' , especially on this level ( ie. not the 'normal everyday level of consciousness ' ) , might be subtle , symbolic , etc . Agreed on all counts. There has never been any conversation in the conventional sense in my visions, and this was no different, though more thoroughly real almost any of the others, and most certainly fitting the bill of angelic in a strange, dusty, time and space forgotten forever kind of way. Yes, the sword fits the bill... one of a number I have been handed. It makes no particular sense to me, and has no top-of-consciousness resonance. Quote * according to Crowley its a name he got from the Book of Abramelin which he applied . he equated it with 'genius' and 'daimon' of the ancient Greeks although in his version it is an objective individual and not just our 'higher nature' . I have been calling it a "Logos", which fits right in there in its way. Makes sense. Quote The ancient Greeks (and Romans ) seem split on various ideas about this ( I lean towards the Socratic view ) regarding them as either 'indwelling' or attendant ' and have relationship to character , personality , aspirations and inspirations and inner spiritual and outer material guidance . It isn't anything internal, in my opinion, though some would argue that ALL of this internal. The subconscious is a man-made construct that I don't buy anymore. What makes the most sense to me is that it is a symbolic representation of perfected "beingness" as an illusory separate construct, and therefore naturally having some inaccuracy. Quote To me it seems a mixture of these forces .... or , that is our perception from 'here ' . I agree with your second idea. Quote If I am flexible with the definitions I feel I have had definite success with communication but many would say ' That was not your HGA ' - however some Greek sources believe the 'daimon' to be a soul of a person from their 'Golden Age ' who 'watched over' you . This seems to go along with some old Zoroastrian concepts ( the origin of a lot of 'spirituality ' in Crowley's system ) where good people from the past may assign themselves ( or part of their function ) to come back / visit certain people to give advice and assistance and to work as a 'bridge' between yourself in this life and the 'other side' - which seemed to be the case for me . Also it goes along with a few different traditional origins I think how it appears (or if it does at all) depends upon how clear your ability to see is in relation to your obscurations. By obscurations I am referring to: Quote From: Tattvasangraha [with commentary] (1) A state that implies a lack of clarity or insight, particularly regarding one's understanding of an object or emotion.[1] (2) The mental hindrances or veils that cloud understanding and perception, preventing one from seeing the true nature of things.[2] https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/obscuration Quote So, if one sees it as a 'higher self' OF oneself , then that might be something other than HGA ( and there are a few higher levels of 'self' ) . But if it IS an objective outside influence to guide and direct and converse with and get advice , then I feel I have had immense success , and that seems to go along with the view of what was meant by it (as opposed to what was injected into the concept later ; higher self ) . Sometimes there seems a 'shadowy collective ' in the background , but converse has definitely been by one particular one . Yeah... I dunno. Higher "self" doesn't make any real sense from my perspective, except possibly in symbolic terms. I can't attribute any particular depth of understanding to the encounter, which isn't to say that deepening of seeing into emptiness doesn't happen all the time. Quote There is also subtle guidance that results in luck, fortune and other things .... behind the scenes , as it were , that is , not being aware of process , just the outcome ... which can result in the 'magician' having the appearance of ' pure arse ' . Its difficult to say what is behind that . eg ; pure arse is like when our lawyer was happy but incredulous how 'fate' kept constantly coming to my assistance in our court case : ''Its like , they ( the prosecutors ) push you in a river , you fall and stumble, landing on a stepping stone and career from one stone to the other and land on the other side, on a silk cushion, with a cocktail in your hand ' I find that this comes where there is less trying to conspire and contrive reality and more accepting and surrendering to what seems to want to happen, or alignment with the Tao. My teacher tells me that those with insight are "taken care of" meaning that minor miracles and synchronicities seem to occur, and things just tend to work out - not winning the lottery, or anything, but a more general simple good fortune. Quote people have often been exasperated by my 'pure arse ' at times The devil you say! Quote Definitely not . I suppose I don't think so either, now that I really talk it through. I'll just say, I think anyone who has the inclination and can hold a belief lightly should try this experiment, summoning often, earnestly and with good intentions to be of benefit to others. It certainly convinced me that magic is possible and does work if there is no clinging to outcomes. It would probably be even more beneficial to someone who hasn't already travelled so far in another tradition. What other workings would you recommend that might be synergistic, beneficial or build on success with this one? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted 8 hours ago (edited) On 11/26/2025 at 10:32 AM, Nungali said: So is Chaos magic really a 'thing' .... or mostly a designation put onto recent magic that is somewhat fashionable and cool ? if it isnt ... what system of modern magick is not Chaos magick ? The book Jurassic Park popularized something called chaos theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory A framework intended to explain things which are unexplainable by modern science. I would guess chaos magic is a spinoff. Or was influenced by chaos theory in some way. Edited 8 hours ago by Sanity Check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cadcam Posted 2 hours ago It's a matter of channeling chaos and applying it with your mental/etherealic body, guided by your physical gestures. First you need a base of established order to observe, then you disturb that order with your mind, spirit and body. On an advanced level, to reach the HGA, you need to have reached a point of awareness spiritually, and have the right tools. For myself, all of this happened naturally, coincidentally, so I don't know if it's something you can academically pursue. There's so little written of accounts that you can't really say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted 2 hours ago 4 minutes ago, Cadcam said: It's a matter of channeling chaos My own observation of this universe is that it is not chaotic. Energies belong to entities and the entities have purpose - even if misdirected. A chaotic set of practices is likely to make few friends in the Cosmos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted 2 hours ago 6 hours ago, Sanity Check said: The book Jurassic Park popularized something called chaos theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory A framework intended to explain things which are unexplainable by modern science. I would guess chaos magic is a spinoff. Or was influenced by chaos theory in some way. I don’t think there is any relation between chaos theory ad chaos magic apart from the name. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted 2 hours ago 13 minutes ago, Lairg said: My own observation of this universe is that it is not chaotic. Energies belong to entities and the entities have purpose - even if misdirected. A chaotic set of practices is likely to make few friends in the Cosmos There are two types of chaos. One is the pre- creational state which is formless and undefinable. The other is the complexity of large numbers of things moving independently. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted 1 hour ago 24 minutes ago, Apech said: pre- creational state which is formless My observation of the pre-creational is that it is structured and intentional - otherwise it would produce chaos 24 minutes ago, Apech said: the complexity of large numbers of things moving independently. I tend to agree with Pythagoras when he told us that numbers are alive. Certainly I felt numbers were unhappy when misused in equations. Number is conceived not as a mental abstraction but something which exists in and composes all things. https://ba278b9d8106536501a2-57da1f3fe93ccf3a9828e6ce67c3d52c.ssl.cf5.rackcdn.com/ws_03_leonessi.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
