Yes-But-Mind vs. Don't-Know-Mind

[SodaChanh]

I like this video on the Don't Know Mind

 

 

[Mark Foote]

 

She's discussing something altogether different, but I thought it was worth noting that Sojun Mel Weitsman said this about Shunryu Suzuki's teaching:

 

He said that the secret of Soto Zen is "yes, but."

 

("Wind Bell", S. F. Zen Center, vol. XXXlll no. 2 FALL/ WINTER 1999, "introduction to "Branching Streams Flow in the Darkness" BY Mel Weitsman, p 15)

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:49 PM by Mark Foote

[Tommy]

I am not that sophisticated to understand the difference between "Yes- but-mind" and "Don't-know-mind". So correct me if I am wrong. The whole thing seems to be about the attitude in which one approaches the sitting?? Or is there something else I am missing?

Edited Friday at 10:49 PM by Tommy

[SodaChanh]

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

I am not that sophisticated to understand the difference between "Yes- but-mind" and "Don't-know-mind". So correct me if I am wrong. The whole thing seems to be about the attitude in which on approaches the sitting?? Or is there something else I am missing?

 

What is your next thought going to be? 

[Tommy]

14 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

 

What is your next thought going to be? 

And this affects the sitting how? When the point of just sitting is .. to not follow thoughts or chase thoughts, how does it relate? When just sitting is .. to allow one to not identify with thoughts and to be present? What is your next thought going to be?

Edited Friday at 10:54 PM by Tommy

[SodaChanh]

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

And this affects the sitting how? When the point of just sitting is .. to not follow thoughts or chase thoughts, how does it relate? When just sitting is .. to allow one to not identify with thoughts and to be present? What is your next thought going to be?

 

Yes but... 

 

You see? 

[Tommy]

10 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

 

Yes but... 

 

You see? 

Don't know

[Mark Foote]

On 11/6/2025 at 6:18 PM, Tommy said:

 

I am not that sophisticated to understand the difference between "Yes- but-mind" and "Don't-know-mind". So correct me if I am wrong. The whole thing seems to be about the attitude in which one approaches the sitting?? Or is there something else I am missing?

 

 

 

Yeah, it's easy to overthink this (ha ha).

My take is that there's a certain negation in "don't know mind", because the mind does know, that's it's nature. And a certain affirmation in "'yes, but' mind".

 

Some teachers say "root out discursive thought". Gautama described mindfulness of mind in a more affirmative light, IMO:

 

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

“Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

 

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

 

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

 

(SN 54.1, tr. Pali Text Society vol V pp 275-276)

 

 

In my experience, that sequence is natural, and any attempt on my part to "root out" a particular kind of thought leads me in a loop of thought.

 

Gautama spoke of observing the mind the way the king's chef observes the king, to see what he favors on a given day and what he does not. He also said:

 

As (one) abides in body contemplating body, either some bodily object arises, or bodily discomfort or drowsiness of mind scatters (one’s) thoughts abroad to externals. Thereupon… (one’s) attention should be directed to some pleasurable object of thought. As (one) thus directs it to some pleasurable object of thought, delight springs up in (one’s being). In (one), thus delighted, arises zest. Full of zest (one’s) body is calmed down. With body so calmed (one) experiences ease. The mind of one at ease is concentrated. (One) thus reflects: The aim on which I set my mind I have attained. Come, let me withdraw my mind [from pleasurable object of thought]. So (one) withdraws (one’s) mind therefrom, and neither starts nor carries on thought-process. Thus (one) is fully conscious: I am without thought initial or sustained. I am inwardly mindful. I am at ease.

(Gautama repeats the above for “As (one) contemplates feelings in feelings…”, “… mind in mind…”, “… mind-states in mind-states, either some mental object arises, or…”)

 

Such is the practice for the direction of mind.

 

And what… is the practice for the non-direction of mind? (First,) by not directing (one’s) mind to externals, (one) is fully aware: My mind is not directed to externals. Then (one) is fully aware: My mind is not concentrated either on what is before or on what is behind, but it is set free, it is undirected. Then (one) is fully aware: In body contemplating body I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.

 

And (one) does the same with regard to feelings… to mind… and mind-states. Thus (one) is fully aware: In mind-states contemplating mind-states I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.

 

This is the practice for the non-direction of mind.

 

(SN 47.10, tr. Pali Text Society SN V pp 135-136)

 

 

Maybe you have better luck with "only don't know" than I do!

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Mark Foote

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

… the mind does know …

That’s what you believe.  
 

Spoiler

imo: the mind cannot know; the soul knows. 

 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Cobie

[Tommy]

     In my life, I have found that I have a mind and emotions. These things exhibit their properties thru my body. I feel them to be real. I have not found a soul. So when one says something about spiritual this or that, I really do not understand as I have not found there is a soul in my body. In movies, the souls are mostly ghosts of a person who might have existed. They exist in our realm thru their torture and inability to move on. Where they are suppose to go, I have no idea.

     I was taught, as a child, to believe in God and have prayed many times usually when I needed help. There has been no action or vision to lead me to believe there is a God. Many have said it is a matter of faith. Where as, the Buddhism says to not just take their word but to actually find out for myself. So, even though I have never experienced enlightenment, I trust there must be such a thing. What it is or how it is , ... well, that is beyond me.

     Buddhism becomes strange when it declares that this world is an illusion. When I strike my fist against a rock, my hand hurts with pain that makes me feel the truth of this world. It is real. Suffering is real. The more I just sit, I realize that there must be something else or more to this life than just suffering. What is the truth of our nature? Don't know.

     So when it comes to Buddhism, I listen and hear the words or the wise. My mind goes "Yes, but". And then I sit and My mind goes "Don't know". Is it really one versus the other? Seems to me to be all part of the mix.