What does 元亨利贞 really mean?

[forestofclarity]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I'd start very simple though, with just trying to get some answers to your real life questions and see how helpful (or not) you find what the I Ching tells you. 

 

That makes sense. That is how I generally started to familiarize myself with the Tarot back in the day. 

[ChiDragon]

On 11/15/2025 at 7:07 AM, forestofclarity said:

Would it make more sense to familiarize with the foundational hexagrams first? 

To be more precise, it make more sense to familiarize with the foundational trigrams first.

Edited yesterday at 03:39 AM by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

To be more precise, it make more sense to familiarize with the foundational trigrams first.

 

That's done in a few minutes and a lifetime.  You don't need a lifetime to ask your first I Ching question.  You do need a few minutes to familiarize yourself with the foundational trigrams, sure, as well as with all the other "prerequisites."  But then you need a few hours to familiarize yourself with their behavior in hexagrams, and then a few days to start grasping what a changing line means, and a few years to understand where it might be coming from and where it's headed, and a couple decades to learn to read the Changes in the hexagrams via the images without having to look at the comments, and then to discern those hexagram images in the real-life environments so your street might become your I Ching, and maybe master the Plum Blossom technique while at it, and then your familiarity with the I Ching begins.  You will not only see its images, you will hear its voice.  You will have gained a mentor and a friend.    

 

But if you don't use it as an oracle at all, the way its creators intended it to be used, it remains silent and lifeless to you.  The dry, aged, dead and silent yarrow stalks will never bloom into flowers of wisdom in your hands unless you pick them up and use them.  You may learn the theoretical part in your head, but if you study the map yet never walk the territory...  that's a very limiting endeavor for a Traveler of Time and Space the I Ching has been created for.    

 

Also sprach Taomeow.   

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

You do need a few minutes to familiarize yourself with the foundational trigrams,

It took me more than few minutes to familiarize the 8 trigrams. BTW the intend of the Yijing was not for fortune telling in the first place. If someone start using it to predict the future, one is only picked up somewhere in the middle and skipped to learn what Yijing was all about.

[Sanity Check]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

That's done in a few minutes and a lifetime.  You don't need a lifetime to ask your first I Ching question.  You do need a few minutes to familiarize yourself with the foundational trigrams, sure, as well as with all the other "prerequisites."  But then you need a few hours to familiarize yourself with their behavior in hexagrams, and then a few days to start grasping what a changing line means, and a few years to understand where it might be coming from and where it's headed, and a couple decades to learn to read the Changes in the hexagrams via the images without having to look at the comments, and then to discern those hexagram images in the real-life environments so your street might become your I Ching, and maybe master the Plum Blossom technique while at it, and then your familiarity with the I Ching begins.  You will not only see its images, you will hear its voice.  You will have gained a mentor and a friend.    

 

But if you don't use it as an oracle at all, the way its creators intended it to be used, it remains silent and lifeless to you.  The dry, aged, dead and silent yarrow stalks will never bloom into flowers of wisdom in your hands unless you pick them up and use them.  You may learn the theoretical part in your head, but if you study the map yet never walk the territory...  that's a very limiting endeavor for a Traveler of Time and Space the I Ching has been created for.    

 

 

 

 

Intuition versus deductive reasoning.

 

While mystical intuition might access information that is accurate, it seems as if there is a universal law in place preventing said data from being particularly useful. Or having direct real world application.

 

To cite an example, in years past I was a consistently winning gambler in sports. Used a variety of deductive reasoning, science and observation in an effort to accurately predict the outcome of events. 

 

This is the type of data people generally seek when approaching mysticism.

 

I would guess my data, math and science based approach would yield better results in sports gambling than any type of divination or oracle. 

 

And so in terms of wisdom and intellect I'm still waiting for someone to put forth a good explanation for why or how intuition based mysticism might be considered worth pursuing. When there is so much that can be done with logic & data.

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

And so in terms of wisdom and intellect I'm still waiting for someone to put forth a good explanation for why or how intuition based mysticism might be considered worth pursuing. When there is so much that can be done with logic & data.

 

Either one is the product of the cognitive processes of half-brainers.  Half-brainers, who constitute the majority of our contemporaries, use both hemispheres of their brain of course (at least most do), but in sequence, not together.  As one insightful half-brainer put it, "I can solve a complex math problem and I can sing a deeply touching song, but I can't sing a deeply touching complex math problem." 

 

Well, a whole-brainer can (metaphorically speaking) and does.  That's what using both the left and the right hemispheres simultaneously rather than in sequence is like.  And that's what the study and use of the I Ching is like.  It's both designed for a whole-brainer and helps develop the ability to use one's whole brain.      

[心神 ~]

3 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Intuition versus deductive reasoning.

 

While mystical intuition might access information that is accurate, it seems as if there is a universal law in place preventing said data from being particularly useful. Or having direct real world application.

 

To cite an example, in years past I was a consistently winning gambler in sports. Used a variety of deductive reasoning, science and observation in an effort to accurately predict the outcome of events. 

 

This is the type of data people generally seek when approaching mysticism.

 

I would guess my data, math and science based approach would yield better results in sports gambling than any type of divination or oracle. 

 

And so in terms of wisdom and intellect I'm still waiting for someone to put forth a good explanation for why or how intuition based mysticism might be considered worth pursuing. When there is so much that can be done with logic & data.

 

 

A lot of real world decisions aren’t just data problems. They’re value conflicts, timing, overconfidence, fear, distraction, mixed motives, and blind spots.

 

On the surface, an oracle can be useful as a structured mirror: it forces a clear question and provides a framework, and then you have to do the work of mapping that frame onto your actual situation, working through internal and external factors.

 

Personally, I believe a variety of divinatory systems to be more "divine communication" than a simple trigger for reflection, but the two acts are in relationship with one another. Especially if one believes that the source of all is within each of us.

 

But anyway, observation and measurement can also be applied to divination outcomes, so the two aren't mutually separate.

 

Edited 11 hours ago by 心神 ~

[ChiDragon]

Anyone know what are the 8 symbols of the trigrams represent with a good explanation? 

[心神 ~]

26 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Anyone know what are the 8 symbols of the trigrams represent with a good explanation? 

 

 

I'm still learning about this topic, and maybe I'm answering incorrectly. But is this what you mean? Each symbol is a representation of energetic activity.

 

乾 (Qián) ☰ is Heaven. It represents pure initiative: leadership, starting, creating, setting direction. It is strong, clear, and upward-moving, like open sky and momentum.

 

坤 (Kūn) ☷ is Earth. It represents receptivity: support, patience, carrying, nourishing, making space for growth. It is steady and downward/holding, like soil that receives seed and turns it into life.

 

震 (Zhèn) ☳ is Thunder. It represents sudden movement: a wake-up shock, a startle, a breakthrough that gets energy unstuck. It is the force that begins action after stillness, like the first spring thunder that pushes life to move.

 

巽 (Xùn) ☴ is Wind/Wood. It represents gentle penetration: influence, steady progress, spreading, persuading, entering little by little. It does not force. It works by consistency, like wind shaping a landscape or roots working through soil.

 

坎 (Kǎn) ☵ is Water. It represents depth and danger: the hard and honest part of life, risk, fear, and the need for skill. Water goes around obstacles and keeps moving, so it also means adaptability, practice, and learning to navigate rather than trying to control everything.

 

离 (Lí) ☲ is Fire. It represents clarity and brightness: seeing, understanding, attention, and what things “cling” to. Fire needs fuel and a place to hold it, so it also points to dependence and relationship: clarity comes from staying connected to what feeds it.

 

艮 (Gèn) ☶ is Mountain. It represents stillness and stopping: boundaries, rest, restraint, and ending a motion at the right time. Mountain energy is knowing when to pause, hold steady, and not chase, so a clean decision can form.

 

兑 (Duì) ☱ is Lake/Marsh. It represents joy and exchange: openness, conversation, pleasure, and shared spirit. Lake energy is mouth and breath, so it also means speech, persuasion, and the power of a warm, honest connection.

 

[Cobie]

 

This paper basically states that Daoism and Yijing comes from Indo--Europeans. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350522856_Indo-Europeans_in_the_Ancient_Yellow_River_Valley?_sg[1]=

 

 

[心神 ~]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

 

This paper basically states that Daoism and Yijing comes from Indo--Europeans. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350522856_Indo-Europeans_in_the_Ancient_Yellow_River_Valley?_sg[1]=

 

 

I'm unable to access the study. What does it say? What supports its claim?

 

[Cobie]

 

Try this link

 https://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp311_indo_europeans_china_zhou_dynasty.pdf 

 

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Cobie

[心神 ~]

6 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Try this link

 https://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp311_indo_europeans_china_zhou_dynasty.pdf 

 

 

Ahh, thank you!

 

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Anyone know what are the 8 symbols of the trigrams represent with a good explanation? 

from the master himself 

 

also posted once by CD was a video (which I can’t find back now) about the origins, somewhat like in this picture:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Cobie

[Sanity Check]

8 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Either one is the product of the cognitive processes of half-brainers.  Half-brainers, who constitute the majority of our contemporaries, use both hemispheres of their brain of course (at least most do), but in sequence, not together.  As one insightful half-brainer put it, "I can solve a complex math problem and I can sing a deeply touching song, but I can't sing a deeply touching complex math problem." 

 

Well, a whole-brainer can (metaphorically speaking) and does.  That's what using both the left and the right hemispheres simultaneously rather than in sequence is like.  And that's what the study and use of the I Ching is like.  It's both designed for a whole-brainer and helps develop the ability to use one's whole brain.      

 

 

In the early 2000s, when many youth on the internet were interested in learning computer programming.

 

There was an unusual trend many of us noticed.

 

Those who were very good at programming were utterly terrible at making graphics.

 

While those who were very good at graphics were utterly terrible at programming.

 

I tried to improve @ both.

 

For the past 20'ish years.

 

Maybe I'm already on something resembling that path, although I never realized it.

 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

A lot of real world decisions aren’t just data problems. They’re value conflicts, timing, overconfidence, fear, distraction, mixed motives, and blind spots.

 

On the surface, an oracle can be useful as a structured mirror: it forces a clear question and provides a framework, and then you have to do the work of mapping that frame onto your actual situation, working through internal and external factors.

 

Personally, I believe a variety of divinatory systems to be more "divine communication" than a simple trigger for reflection, but the two acts are in relationship with one another. Especially if one believes that the source of all is within each of us.

 

But anyway, observation and measurement can also be applied to divination outcomes, so the two aren't mutually separate.

 

 

 

It helps to remember that reality can be digitized in audio and video formats. 

 

A picture of a flower, a song, colors, even choices can be modeled to some degree with an app that includes some type of weighted branching.

 

In spite of this, I love the saying that "its impossible to measure the size of someone's heart". Maybe only God can do that. Human consciousness still hasn't been mapped, we still don't know precisely how the human brain functions or even what its true capabilities are. I remember 15 years ago reading claims of the brain achieving 10^18 calculations per second to achieve consciousness. Considerable debate on that over the years. We still lack a consensus explanation.

 

I guess my question would be how trends like divination are defined by history. I've always had the impression that while such things can provide answers, they never provide the answers people are directly searching for. Its more prone towards leading people down side quests than something that helps them achieve their main quest.

 

In terms of history, Einstein is a good ambassador for physics.

 

Jesus is a good ambassador for christianity.

 

Who is a good historical ambassador for intuition or divination? Are there any who can be named?

 

That is what those trends lack is some real world application that can be clearly defined in terms of history.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

This paper basically states that Daoism and Yijing comes from Indo--Europeans. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350522856_Indo-Europeans_in_the_Ancient_Yellow_River_Valley?_sg[1]=

 

 

 

Juicy !   Have you read it ? 

 

( I'll tackle it later  )  

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

It helps to remember that reality can be digitized in audio and video formats. 

 

A picture of a flower, a song, colors, even choices can be modeled to some degree with an app that includes some type of weighted branching.

 

In spite of this, I love the saying that "its impossible to measure the size of someone's heart". Maybe only God can do that. Human consciousness still hasn't been mapped, we still don't know precisely how the human brain functions or even what its true capabilities are. I remember 15 years ago reading claims of the brain achieving 10^18 calculations per second to achieve consciousness. Considerable debate on that over the years. We still lack a consensus explanation.

 

I guess my question would be how trends like divination are defined by history. I've always had the impression that while such things can provide answers, they never provide the answers people are directly searching for. Its more prone towards leading people down side quests than something that helps them achieve their main quest.

 

In terms of history, Einstein is a good ambassador for physics.

 

Jesus is a good ambassador for christianity.

 

Who is a good historical ambassador for intuition or divination? Are there any who can be named?

 

That is what those trends lack is some real world application that can be clearly defined in terms of history.

 

Dr John Dee   :   John Dee's most accurate prediction was Elizabeth I's coronation date of January 15, 1559.

 

Tiresais  :  Tiresias's most accurate prediction is likely his prophecy to Oedipus that he would "see" the truth of his life, which would lead him to scream in agony. This is considered his most accurate because it was so precise about the tragic events in Oedipus Rex that came to pass. He accurately foresaw the horrifying truth of Oedipus's identity as a murderer of his father and husband to his mother, a discovery that drove Oedipus to blind himself. 

 

The Oracle of Amun ( at Siwa Oasis )  : Considered accurate enough that Alexander the Great sought advice there. Also  King Cambyses of Persia consulted about his African campaign .... seeking the same confirmation  of 'divine right and kingship'  that Alexander got ... but Oracle said no .    No one wants to hear a 'fake prediction like that !   Also it undermined his 'legitimacy'  to  rule Egypt , so ....  Cambyses dispatched an army of 50,000 soldiers from Thebes with orders to attack the Siwa Oasis, enslave the Ammonians (priests and inhabitants), and burn the temple of the Oracle. The army, however, famously disappeared in the desert, a fate often attributed to a massive sandstorm.

 

Intuition ; 

 

figures like Srinivasa Ramanujan are frequently cited for their exceptional intuitive grasp of mathematics, while Albert Einstein is noted for his intuitive leaps in physics, which sometimes contradicted a more rational approach favored by contemporaries like John von Neumann . 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Dr John Dee   :   John Dee's most accurate prediction was Elizabeth I's coronation date of January 15, 1559.

 

Tiresais  :  Tiresias's most accurate prediction is likely his prophecy to Oedipus that he would "see" the truth of his life, which would lead him to scream in agony. This is considered his most accurate because it was so precise about the tragic events in Oedipus Rex that came to pass. He accurately foresaw the horrifying truth of Oedipus's identity as a murderer of his father and husband to his mother, a discovery that drove Oedipus to blind himself. 

 

The Oracle of Amun ( at Siwa Oasis )  : Considered accurate enough that Alexander the Great sought advice there. Also  King Cambyses of Persia consulted about his African campaign .... seeking the same confirmation  of 'divine right and kingship'  that Alexander got ... but Oracle said no .    No one wants to hear a 'fake prediction like that !   Also it undermined his 'legitimacy'  to  rule Egypt , so ....  Cambyses dispatched an army of 50,000 soldiers from Thebes with orders to attack the Siwa Oasis, enslave the Ammonians (priests and inhabitants), and burn the temple of the Oracle. The army, however, famously disappeared in the desert, a fate often attributed to a massive sandstorm.

 

Intuition ; 

 

figures like Srinivasa Ramanujan are frequently cited for their exceptional intuitive grasp of mathematics, while Albert Einstein is noted for his intuitive leaps in physics, which sometimes contradicted a more rational approach favored by contemporaries like John von Neumann . 

 

 

 

If there was a classroom of children.

 

Who wanted to be future doctors, lawyers, internet influencers, inventors, youtubers, etc.

 

Is there any soothsayer or diviner who could be named.

 

Whose life story would make those children want to be like them and live the life they led?

 

...

 

There are social media personalities with a large following. I see these people and worry they might break their arms and injure themselves patting themselves on the back so hard, for having accurately predicted water being wet. 

 

On the religious side of things, there are internet personalities who could have injured themselves and broken their arms from patting themselves on the back so hard for having "figured out" prophecies in revelation. These people couldn't care less about facts or history. Its all ego and self praise for them.

 

Most modern world predictors give the calling a bad name. To say the least.

Edited 4 minutes ago by Sanity Check