Zhan Zhuang is Not for Beginners

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Antares said:

what about this one? still awkward for you?

This is much better. It is the correct Zhan Zhuang stance. The lower legs are not tilted as much as the previous one.

Edited October 8 by ChiDragon

[Antares]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

This is much better. It is the correct Zhan Zhuang stance. The lower legs are not tailed as much as the previous one.

finally sorted it out!

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Antares said:

finally sorted it out!

Yes. Please correct my spelling: Change "tailed" to "tilted". Thanks! 

[Antares]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

Yes. Please correct my spelling: Change "tailed" to "tilted". Thanks!

It will cost you 5$

[ChiDragon]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

If you just do Taiji, it is neigong and qigong already. It is all in one

Let me clarify this. In Taji practice, the breathing coordinates with the movement; and the movement coordinates the breathing. For that said, the breathing part is considered to be Qigong(氣功). The combination of breathing and movement enhance the body strength that is considered to be neigong(內功). 

BTW Neigong practice is something has to be done internally to the body enhancing the function of the body. It enables the body to perform much more difficult tasks. In addition, Neigong determines the health condition of a person. If one has a tremendous body strength, it can be said that one has lots of Neigong. Hence, one may be considered to be an unordinary person.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

I see now. AFTER 6 months taiji stance can be used as static posture, but not from the start

Standing without preparing the body will lead to pain and stress (for most people). I remember that with my first teacher, our sessions would be 2 hours long - first single form warm-ups, then standing meditations (prayer hands set, etc.). Now and then, there would be folks interested in learning who would try the class out. I remember one guy who claimed to have been doing tai chi and qigong for decades - he said he could handle the standing. After about 30 minutes, we heard a thud...the poor man had fallen because he was forcing himself to stand, despite my teacher having told him to move around or sit down if the standing was too much. Unfortunately he never came back to the class  

[liminal_luke]

13 hours ago, steve said:

I think if we stand simply for the sake of standing, with no expectations or demands on ourselves, there is little risk of harm and it can be a wonderful practice, even for beginners.

 

 

Standing without expectations or demands on myself (or others) sounds great.  Actually, doing anything that way would be wonderful, but standing is probably a good place to start. Harder than it sounds, at least for me.

Edited October 9 by liminal_luke

[ChiDragon]

On 10/8/2025 at 2:09 PM, dwai said:

I remember one guy who claimed to have been doing tai chi and qigong for decades - he said he could handle the stand.

Yes, if he did the practice, then, he should be able to do the stand as long as he like. Apparently, he didn't practice that long or didn't do it right in the first place. 

Edited October 11 by ChiDragon

[Gerard]

I favour Ma Bu:

 

 

 

[Antares]

On 10.10.2025 at 11:47 AM, Gerard said:

I favour Ma Bu:

This one is very external one.

[Antares]

On 09.10.2025 at 5:20 AM, liminal_luke said:

Standing without expectations or demands on myself (or others) sounds great.  Actually, doing anything that way would be wonderful, but standing is probably a good place to start. 

Standing for the sake of standing, seating for the sake of seating, eating for the sake of eating...

You have to understand what you are doing while standing. And in first place the question if this gives you qi or may be you burn your qi. Devil is in details. Majority of people just burn their yuan jing by long standing, so you must know how to collect yuan jing before that

[mumuyan]

I’m a beginner, and I was wondering—do you know the difference between Horse Stance(马步） and Standing Meditation（站桩）？

[ChiDragon]

13 minutes ago, mumuyan said:

I’m a beginner, and I was wondering—do you know the difference between Horse Stance(马步） and Standing Meditation（站桩）？

Horse Stance(马步）is the name that was given to a stance.

Zhan Zhuang（站桩）is the name that was given to a method of being standing at a horse stance.

Edited November 3 by ChiDragon

[mumuyan]

10 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Horse Stance(马步）is the name that was given to a stance.

Zhan Zhuang（站桩）is the name that was given to a method of being standing at a horse stance.

Yeah, Horse Stance is for training lower body stability, while Standing Meditation builds overall body stability. When you pair Standing Meditation with breathing, that’s Neidan Breathing Method—its main goal is to guide acquired qi to clear and activate the body’s entire energy network. What do you think of this understanding of mine?

[ChiDragon]

21 minutes ago, mumuyan said:

Yeah, Horse Stance is for training lower body stability, while Standing Meditation builds overall body stability. When you pair Standing Meditation with breathing, that’s Neidan Breathing Method—its main goal is to guide acquired qi to clear and activate the body’s entire energy network. What do you think of this understanding of mine?

In regard to you understanding, you got the right idea. However, just to be clear, horse stance is the main part of Standing Meditation. With breathing, your body is generating its inner energy. The idea of "its main goal is to guide acquired qi to clear and activate the body’s entire energy network" is an traditional concept that was what most people were told. In other words, your energy was not acquired, rather, it was generated by your own body. Most people only have the macroscopic view of it. If we're looking at it  microscopically, then, it would be a different story.

Edited November 3 by ChiDragon

[mumuyan]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

In regard to you understanding, you got the right idea. However, just to be clear, horse stance is the main part of Standing Meditation. With breathing, your body is generating its inner energy. The idea of "its main goal is to guide acquired qi to clear and activate the body’s entire energy network" is an traditional concept that was what most people were told. In other words, your energy was not acquired, rather, it was generated by your own body. Most people only have the macroscopic view of it. If we're looking at it  microscopically is it would be a different story.

Then what differences do you think exist when viewed from a microscopic perspective?

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, mumuyan said:

Then what differences do you think exist when viewed from a microscopic perspective?

This would be involved with modern science by looking into cell respiration inside the body cell(Google it). However, most people do not like to look into that. They rather stay with the simple traditional concept macroscopically.

[mumuyan]

9 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This would be involved with modern science by looking into cell respiration inside the body cell(Google it). However, most people do not like to look into that. They rather stay with the simple traditional concept macroscopically.

Thank you for your explanation. I’ve also been researching this field. Currently, I’ve concluded that acquired（后天之气） qi is roughly related to the nervous system, and I’m still studying innate qi（先天之气）. My research is mainly based on the body’s actual feedback, with a focus on addressing minor physical issues such as rhinitis and otitis media.

 

So far, my practical case studies include the role of qi regulation in aiding pre- and post-exercise recovery, and methods to quickly relieve nasal congestion. Other areas are still under research since I’m new to this field.

 

By the way, my master has recognized the value of these research efforts, though they haven’t yet reached the level of being formalized into a thesis.

Regarding innate qi and acquired qi, their names vary across different schools or lineages, but they both refer to the same concept of qi.

翻译要点说明

[ChiDragon]

12 hours ago, mumuyan said:

Currently, I’ve concluded that acquired（后天之气） qi is roughly related to the nervous system, and

Regarding to 后天之氣, the acquired Qi, the Qi here is a substance other than people thought it was an energy. It is acquired from outside the body, such as the food we eat and the air that we breathe. Mainly, it is the oxygen that we needed for the decomposition of the glucose to produce the ATP energy. The glucose is from the foods we eat. The glucose was broken down from the food and stored in the liver as glycogen.

To learn more about ATP is best to study Cell Respiration.

[ChiDragon]

14 hours ago, mumuyan said:

I’m still studying innate qi（先天之气）.

Again, the innate qi is not internal qi. The TCM definition for it is the basic unit that comprises the human body. It was originated from the parents.

[mumuyan]

On 2025/11/4 at 2:13 AM, ChiDragon said:

Again, the innate qi is not internal qi. The TCM definition for it is the basic unit that comprises the human body. It was originated from the parents.

Thank you for your insights.

The Essence of Qi: A Control System from Cells to Neural Networks
 
Cells are the matrix of the body and the material foundation for all life activities. Personally, I believe cells are equally fundamental in cultivating Dan Dao (Elixir Taoism) — without healthy, active cells, there is no basis for cultivation. While cells are the foundation, they are not the key to cultivation. The true key lies in: how to mobilize cells.
 
The method to mobilize cells is "Qi".
 
Traditional Chinese medicine and Taoism divide "Qi" into innate Qi and acquired Qi. From a material perspective, acquired Qi can indeed be understood as the energy metabolism system in modern physiology: oxygen and glucose produce ATP through cellular respiration to provide energy for the body. This is the material/energy dimension of "Qi", the "fuel" for bodily functions.
 
But "Qi" is more than that.
 
If "Qi" were merely ATP energy, then everyone should be able to "abound with Qi sensation" and "circulate Qi freely" as long as they eat and drink their fill. However, this is not the case. The difference between cultivators and ordinary people does not lie in who has more ATP, but in who can actively mobilize this energy.
 
This is the second dimension of "Qi": the information/control level.
 
More precisely, Qi is a broad concept — it includes both energy (ATP, blood, nutrients) and the mechanism to mobilize this energy. This mobilization mechanism is essentially the neural network system.
 
When we say "circulate Qi to the Dantian", the actual process is:
 
1. Consciousness issues instructions (intentional layer)
2. The nervous system responds and transmits signals (control layer)
3. Blood vessels dilate, blood flows, and cells become active (material layer)
 
The "Qi sensation" we feel is not the flow of ATP molecules, but the real-time feedback of the nervous system on changes in bodily states. What we call "circulating Qi" is essentially actively regulating the nervous system, which in turn regulates blood circulation, energy distribution, and cellular activity.
 
Therefore, Qi is more closely aligned with the neural network.
 
My practical cultivation experience confirms this. When practicing Baduanjin (Eight-Section Brocade):
 
- Practicing on an empty stomach: Insufficient energy (ATP) reserves, but the nervous system is clear and undisturbed, resulting in "smooth Qi sensation but insufficient sustained power"
- Practicing immediately after eating: Energy is being replenished, but the digestive system occupies a lot of blood and neural resources, leading to "unstable Qi sensation"
- Practicing after promoting digestion: Energy is quickly available, digestive burden is reduced, and the nervous system focuses on cultivation, resulting in "smooth Qi sensation and sufficient sustained power"
 
This shows that the key to cultivation lies not only in "having energy" (eating one's fill) but also in "being able to control the distribution and flow of energy" (neural regulation).
 
Thus, the essence of cultivating both life (Xing) and nature (Ming) lies in the synchronous improvement of these three levels:
 
- Ming (material layer): Nurture the body, maintain cellular health, and ensure sufficient energy supply
- Xing (control layer): Train the sensitivity and control of the nervous system, and learn to actively mobilize Qi and blood
- Shen (consciousness layer): Enhance the concentration and guiding power of consciousness to achieve "where the intention goes, Qi follows"
 
Cells are the foundation, energy is the fuel, the nervous system is the steering wheel, and consciousness is the navigation. None of the four is dispensable, but in cultivation, learning to harness the neural network and actively control the flow of Qi is the true key.
 
This is the complete understanding of "Qi": it is not mere energy, but a multi-layered system encompassing matter, information, control, and consciousness. Understanding this explains why cultivation requires "practical practice" rather than just "theory" — because the control ability of the neural network can only be developed through practice, establishing a precise connection between consciousness and the body through continuous training.

Would you say my ideas are workable? I appreciate it."

If my machine translation is not very understandable, I’ve attached the Chinese version. I’m really sorry, but my English isn’t very good in this regard.

【气的本质：从细胞到神经网络的控制系统】

细胞是身体的基质，是一切生命活动的物质基础。我个人认为在修炼丹道中，细胞同样是根本——没有健康、活跃的细胞，就没有修炼的基础。细胞虽是基础，却不是修炼的关键。真正的关键在于：如何调动细胞。
调动细胞的方法，就是"气"。
传统中医和道教将"气"分为先天之气和后天之气。后天之气，从物质层面来看，确实可以理解为现代生理学中的能量代谢系统：氧气与葡萄糖通过细胞呼吸产生ATP，为身体提供能量。这是"气"的物质/能量层面，是身体运作的"燃料"。
但"气"不止于此。
如果"气"仅仅是ATP能量，那么每个人只要吃饱喝足，就应该都能"气感充盈"，都能运气自如。然而事实并非如此。修炼者和普通人的区别，不在于谁的ATP更多,而在于谁能**主动调动**这些能量。
这就是"气"的第二个层面：信息/控制层面。
气，更准确地说，是一个大范围的概念——它既包括能量（ATP、血液、营养物质），也包括**调动这些能量的机制**。这个调动机制，本质上就是神经网络系统。

当我们说"运气到丹田"，实际发生的过程是：
1. 意识发出指令（意图层）
2. 神经系统响应并传导（控制层）  
3. 血管扩张、血液流动、细胞活跃（物质层）
我们感受到的"气感"，不是ATP分子在流动的感觉，而是神经系统对身体状态变化的实时反馈。我们所谓的"运气"，本质上是在主动调节神经系统，而神经系统再进一步调节血液循环、能量分配、细胞活性。
因此，气更偏向于神经网络。
我的实修经验的验证。在练习八段锦时：
- 空腹练功：能量（ATP）储备不足,但神经系统清晰不受干扰，因此"气感顺畅"但"后续力不足"
- 刚进食后练功：能量正在补充，但消化系统占用了大量血液和神经资源，导致"气感不稳定"
- 促进消化后练功：能量快速可用，消化负担减轻，神经系统专注于练功，因此"气感顺畅且后续力充足"
这说明，修炼的关键不仅在于"有能量"（吃饱饭），更在于"能控制能量的分配和流动"（神经调节）。
所以，性命双修的本质，就是在这三个层面上的同步提升：
- **命**（物质层）：保养身体，维持细胞健康，确保能量供应充足
- **性**（控制层）：锻炼神经系统的敏感度和控制力，学会主动调动气血
- **神**（意识层）：提升意识的专注度和引导力，做到"意到气到"
细胞是基础，能量是燃料，神经是方向盘，意识是导航。四者缺一不可，但在修炼中，**学会驾驭神经网络、主动控制气的流动**，才是真正的关键所在。
这就是我目前对"气"的理解：它不是单纯的能量，而是一个包含了物质、信息、控制、意识的多层次系统。因为神经网络的控制能力，只能通过实践来培养，通过持续的练习让意识与身体建立起精确的连接。

 

 I didn’t see any language tips, so if I broke any rules, just let me know — I’ll fix it right away!

[Forestgreen]

16 hours ago, mumuyan said:

 Personally, I believe cells are equally fundamental in cultivating Dan Dao (Elixir Taoism) 

 

Is dan dao about cultivating post heaven qi?

[ChiDragon]

On 11/5/2025 at 7:21 PM, mumuyan said:

Thank you for your insights.

The Essence of Qi: A Control System from Cells to Neural Networks
 【气的本质：从细胞到神经网络的控制系统】

Cells are the matrix of the body and the material foundation for all life activities. Personally, I believe cells are equally fundamental in cultivating Dan Dao (Elixir Taoism) — without healthy, active cells, there is no basis for cultivation. While cells are the foundation, they are not the key to cultivation. The true key lies in: how to mobilize cells.
 

细胞是身体的基质，是一切生命活动的物质基础。我个人认为在修炼丹道中，细胞同样是根本——没有健康、活跃的细胞，就没有修炼的基础。细胞虽是基础，却不是修炼的关键。真正的关键在于：如何调动细胞。

You're welcome!

First of all, before we start, let's not assume that "The Essence of Qi: A Control System from Cells to Neural Networks." If assuming that is true, then, we will abide to this definition and lead us farther and farther away from the subject. The term Qi just came out of nowhere. How do we justify that essence of Qi is a control system 

In regarding to the cultivation Dan Dao, 練丹道, without healthy, active cells, there is no basis for cultivation. This is a fallacy. The reason we cultivate is because we want to improve the health state of the cells. Hence, It is independent of the health state of the cells. The purpose of cultivation is to make unhealthy cell healthier and the existing cells stays in good health to prevent from deterioration.  

I am not quite sure what do you mean by "how to mobilize cells." Perhaps, we need some work on that to come to the condition.

 

Edited Friday at 04:14 AM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, mumuyan said:

The method to mobilize cells is "Qi".
调动细胞的方法，就是"气"。
 
Traditional Chinese medicine and Taoism divide "Qi" into innate Qi and acquired Qi. From a material perspective, acquired Qi can indeed be understood as the energy metabolism system in modern physiology: oxygen and glucose produce ATP through cellular respiration to provide energy for the body. This is the material/energy dimension of "Qi", the "fuel" for bodily functions.

传统中医和道教将"气"分为先天之气和后天之气。后天之气，从物质层面来看，确实可以理解为现代生理学中的能量代谢系统：氧气与葡萄糖通过细胞呼吸产生ATP，为身体提供能量。这是"气"的物质/能量层面，是身体运作的"燃料"。

Good!
I am glad that we agree to the definitions of the innate Qi(先天之气) and acquired Qi(后天之气). However, the Qi in both cases are not energy. The acquired Qi itself is not energy but the source of energy for metabolism. 

BTW I would rather use the word 'activate' other than "mobilize'. I would like to rephrase to say activate the cells, but not to mobilize the cells.

Edited Thursday at 10:36 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, mumuyan said:

But "Qi" is more than that.
 
If "Qi" were merely ATP energy, then everyone should be able to "abound with Qi sensation" and "circulate Qi freely" as long as they eat and drink their fill. However, this is not the case. The difference between cultivators and ordinary people does not lie in who has more ATP, but in who can actively mobilize this energy

但"气"不止于此。
如果"气"仅仅是ATP能量，那么每个人只要吃饱喝足，就应该都能"气感充盈"，都能运气自如。然而事实并非如此。修炼者和普通人的区别，不在于谁的ATP更多,而在于谁能**主动调动**这些能量。

Yes, Qi is more than that. We must use the term wisely. We should understand its definition by its contextual meaning by not assuming it is energy to begin with.

"The difference between cultivators and ordinary people does not lie in who has more ATP"
This statement contradicts my understanding about the amount of ATP. Based on modern scientific explanation of ATP, I have learnt that if we do moderate exercise, not strenuous, a constant slight contraction on a particular muscle will increase the amount of ATP in that muscle cells tremendously. For that said, based on you words, even we can actively mobilize ATP. However, both cultivator and an ordinary person only have the limited amount of energy to work with. 

With my understanding, the cultivator has more ATP energy to work with than an ordinary person. A cultivator must had done some different than an ordinary person. That was by cultivation of some type. Does this make sense?

Edited Thursday at 11:20 PM by ChiDragon