Empty Your Cup

[kakapo]

Recently I had a student seek me out.  

 

They told me they studied this many years with this teacher, and this many years with that teacher, and they self studied this course, and that book, and this video series, and that.  

 

They were trying to convince me how well educated they were on the topic. 

 

They were very dismayed when I explained that all of that puts them at a disadvantage compared to someone with no experience in the matter at all. 

 

They were puzzled how that could be.  

 

Surely someone who has put in so much time and effort would be more advanced than someone who has put in zero time and effort after all. 

 

I did my best to explain to them that studying 100 systems that are false, and trying to combine them into something new, doesn't result in a new and improved amalgam of a system, and having to beat all that nonsense out of the student is very difficult to do if not impossible.  

 

Getting someone to empty their cup, especially when they are so proud of the contents of their cup is almost impossible. 

 

The person became very upset, and defensive, and demanded I teach them. 

 

Never a good sign.  

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:41 PM by kakapo

[Apech]

‘Beat it out’?

 

Nice.

[kakapo]

20 minutes ago, Apech said:

‘Beat it out’?

 

Nice.

 

 

 

[kakapo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku

[Lala Nila]

Being boastful is never really a good sign. It can be very hard for people to revert back to newborn stage, especially when they believe themselves to be at a high level. To humble yourself and say "help me teacher, I know nothing, my hands are empty, my heart is untrained. How do you teach someone like me? Someone who has only known wrong things and done wrong things?" and then surrender to you, not many people can do that, they're not willing to, their ego prevents that.

 

In my untrained opinion and I mean that sincerely- the relationship between Master and student is very important, it often transcends time and space, having been written long ago. A wise Master will turn away most people not because he doesn't want to teach, but because the student is not willing to let go and learn with all his (or her) heart. Which really points to what you wrote above!

 

It takes a lot of wisdom to be both Master or student....and maybe a few whacks with that fancy stick to keep them inline once in a while

Edited Monday at 06:26 PM by Lala Nila

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

59 minutes ago, Apech said:

‘Beat it out’?

 

Nice.

Emptying their cup indeed

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

The person became very upset, and defensive, and demanded I teach them. 

 

 

For the sake of all involved, I hope you refused to offer any further advice or instruction.

[Apech]

48 minutes ago, kakapo said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku

When I did Aikido we used a boken for that but it’s to relax not to beat nonsense out of people.

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

For the sake of all involved, I hope you refused to offer any further advice or instruction.

You can’t make an omelette without first instructing the chicken.

 

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

You can’t make an omelette without first instructing the chicken.

 

 

I love omelettes and am not typically the "animal rescue" type, but in this case I hope the chickens fly the coop.

Edited Monday at 06:56 PM by liminal_luke

[kakapo]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

When I did Aikido we used a boken for that but it’s to relax not to beat nonsense out of people.

 

It was meant more metaphorically,  often it is not possible to force people to empty their cup.

 

This is especially true when they hold the teachings they already have in high regard. 

[kakapo]

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

For the sake of all involved, I hope you refused to offer any further advice or instruction.

 

They not willing to unlearn as a first step, so no, nothing more was given to them. 

[Cobie]

.

Edited Monday at 08:22 PM by Cobie

[kakapo]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

 

@stirling  this is a bit alien to me as yet. What’s your view on it?  As a teacher, do you use such a stick?

 

 

 

I don't think hitting a student with a stick is a good idea, it was more of just a response to Apech's post.  

 

The main point being is it is difficult and often impossible to get people to give up teachings they consider valuable.

 

Mixing practices can and often does result in health problems, for which the teacher ultimately will be blamed. 

[Cobie]

 

9 minutes ago, kakapo said:

… it was more of just a response to Apech's post.  

 

Okidoki, understood.

 

Quote

… it is difficult and often impossible to get people to give up teachings they consider valuable.

 

Yes, definitely.

 

 

Edited Monday at 07:31 PM by Cobie

[Forestgreen]

25 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

The main point being is it is difficult and often impossible to get people to give up teachings they consider valuable.

If they find the teaching valuable, they should do more of that instead of trying to add another routine. 

[kakapo]

4 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

If they find the teaching valuable, they should do more of that instead of trying to add another routine. 

 

I agree.

 

Many seekers I meet want to absorb all teachings,  and then combine them into something new and better.  

 

This leads to health problems no one knows how to fix.  

 

Often the last teacher and system they represent gets the blame for the health problems. 

Edited Monday at 07:53 PM by kakapo

[stirling]

  2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

@stirling  this is a bit alien to me as yet. What’s your view on it?  As a teacher, do you use such a stick?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

I don't think hitting a student with a stick is a good idea, it was more of just a response to Apech's post.  

 

The main point being is it is difficult and often impossible to get people to give up teachings they consider valuable.

 

Mixing practices can and often does result in health problems, for which the teacher ultimately will be blamed. 

 

In Soto Zen the stick is used to "suddenly awaken" a student, but few American temples do so anymore. I suppose it could possibly be effective, but I don't use that technique with my students. The problem with some traditions is that their "skillful means" don't evolve with societal changes. What might have worked in feudal Japan might not be what is best for a student in todays day and age. There are plenty of other opportunities and techniques, and an experienced and intuitive teacher could choose something much more personal and effective in the moment. _/\_

 

-

 

I haven't found that there is any issue with mixing techniques where the intention is awakening/enlightenment. I have no trouble mixing techniques where it is efficacious. I will do whatever I can to help precipitate awakening in truly committed student. 

[kakapo]

M

23 minutes ago, stirling said:

  2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

@stirling  this is a bit alien to me as yet. What’s your view on it?  As a teacher, do you use such a stick?

 

 

 

 

In Soto Zen the stick is used to "suddenly awaken" a student, but few American temples do so anymore. I suppose it could possibly be effective, but I don't use that technique with my students. The problem with some traditions is that their "skillful means" don't evolve with societal changes. What might have worked in feudal Japan might not be what is best for a student in todays day and age. There are plenty of other opportunities and techniques, and an experienced and intuitive teacher could choose something much more personal and effective in the moment. _/\_

 

-

 

I haven't found that there is any issue with mixing techniques where the intention is awakening/enlightenment. I have no trouble mixing techniques where it is efficacious. I will do whatever I can to help precipitate awakening in truly committed student. 

 

Microcosmic orbit practice is one example of a practice when mixed with others that can end very badly.  

 

I have seen many students mix this together with another practice, and then blame the other practice for the resulting health issues.  

 

It is a shame indeed, and it becomes the responsibility of the teacher to filter out students likely to do stuff like this in my opinion. 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

When I did Aikido we used a boken for that but it’s to relax not to beat nonsense out of people.

 

But a good bonk with a boken is a very good  'implant'   to help avoid bad habits   

 

-  teacher ; '' Stop sticking your elbow out like that ... it will get hit ! ''

Me:  '' Stop just saying that and hit it then ! ' 

 

eventually ..... 'Bonk!'   .   That fixed the problem .... got right into the autonomous nervous system it did  - no more elbow sticking out .

 

( in this case I 'asked for it' ... it might not be good idea to  start randomly doing that ) . 

[Nungali]

 

 

I have found that women  dont seem to have trouble with it at all  !  

 

 

 

 

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

Microcosmic orbit practice is one example of a practice when mixed with others that can end very badly.  

 

I have seen many students mix this together with another practice, and then blame the other practice for the resulting health issues.  

 

It is a shame indeed, and it becomes the responsibility of the teacher to filter out students likely to do stuff like this in my opinion. 

 

Such practices don't really feature in Zen Buddhism, aside maybe from Hara practice. The insight that one is looking for in Buddhism is a realization about the nature of reality. I have confidence that qi, kundalini, etc., are better left to do as they are wont, rather than be unskillfully manipulated. 

[Forestgreen]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

The insight that one is looking for in Buddhism is a realization about the nature of reality. I have confidence that qi, kundalini, etc., are better left to do as they are wont, rather than be unskillfully manipulated. 

They should be skilfully manipulated, so the practitioner can awaken to reality (wuzhen). The goal of one line of neidan. 

[Forestgreen]

9 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

It is a shame indeed, and it becomes the responsibility of the teacher to filter out students likely to do stuff like this in my opinion. 

My experience is that the public teachers are part of the problem. How many times do you see a public teacher that have an income based on his school that doesn't teach Xing Yi, Taiji, Bagwa, two kinds of meditative practices, and a couple of qigong traditions?

 

Teachers set an example, students imitate that. 

[ralis]

16 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Such practices don't really feature in Zen Buddhism, aside maybe from Hara practice. The insight that one is looking for in Buddhism is a realization about the nature of reality. I have confidence that qi, kundalini, etc., are better left to do as they are wont, rather than be unskillfully manipulated. 

Define the so called nature of reality.