for you are these the same or different: thought, imagination, intention

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, steve said:

 

And yet that reality ignores such a large part of our lived experience. Reality testing is an important part of mental health. So is acknowledging the reality of our internal life and its impact on the external, for us and those around us.

 

3. Check the internal map . 

 

  

 

They can get outdated ... or not be helpful 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 9/7/2025 at 10:53 AM, silent thunder said:

 

There is Awareness, here.  This seems to be one of the few truths.

 

 

 

"There is Awareness, here"--where is the here, where awareness is?

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

Neuroscientists describe “your place where you are” as your “embodied self-location”:

 

A key aspect of the bodily self is self-location, the experience that the self is localized at a specific position in space within one’s bodily borders (embodied self-location). 

 

(Journal of Neuroscience 26 May 2010, 30 (21) 7202-7214)

 

 

Dogen’s “Genjo Koan” can be paraphrased in terms of “self-location”:

 

When you find the “specific position in space” where you feel your bodily self to be, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of that place.  A relationship between the place of “embodied self-location” and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs.  Through such practice, the point that is the “specific position in space” of embodied self-location is manifested in activity.
 

 

The first thing that Gautama realized as his enlightenment unfolded was:

 

“Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel... is strung on a thread, blue-green... or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine... is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away... and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there....”

 

(MN 77, tr. Pali Text Society, vol II p 217)

 

 

[Lairg]

Awareness requires development of sense organs on the relevant planes.

 

Some sense organs support images - hence imagination on the planes of those sense organs

 

Thinking thoughts is mental - requiring a mind and generally a brain

 

Intention is directionality and can exist on any plane.  Mostly the atmic plane is the first experience of spiritual Intent.  Intent is a decision.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:04 AM by Lairg

[Nungali]

On 9/8/2025 at 7:25 AM, Nungali said:

 

One dual of reality  classification is  'real' as Coby outlined  and  'ideal'  which you just out lined. 

 

Ideal things are  realities that are not 'material' .    The rest is 'misfunction' .... according to the dualism that developed out of the world of scientific observation .  Before that it was a three fold  '  reality '.  Something happened along the way ......   science . 

 

Its all in here , a great read and rather essential ; 

 

 

https://archive.org/details/originsofmoderns007291mbp/page/n9/mode/2up?view=theater

 

 

On 9/8/2025 at 7:59 AM, Cobie said:

 

 

You brought it up, you are an expert in the field anyway. So get your lazy bones to make me a digest.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Better make that short too.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

The transition from a traditional three-part worldview to a modern two-part view often signifies a shift from a reality that included a divine realm, a natural realm, and a human realm to a view focused on the separation of the objective, empirical reality (the real) from the subjective, subjective experience or aspiration (the ideal). This change was driven by the Enlightenment, emphasizing reason and empirical observation, which challenged the authority of the divine and broke down the integrated spiritual and natural worldviews of the medieval and classical periods. 

 

Traditional Three-Fold View:

• God/The Divine:

  A foundational understanding of reality that included a supernatural dimension, God, or a cosmic order as the ultimate source of truth and meaning. 

   
• Nature/The World:

  The physical world, which was often understood as a reflection of the divine order and subject to spiritual laws, in addition to natural laws. 

   
• Humanity:

  The human experience was understood within the context of both the divine (e.g., created in God's image, moral uprightness) and the natural world. 

   

Modern Two-Fold View:

• The Real:

  This represents objective, empirical reality that can be studied through science and logic. It emphasizes verifiable facts and observable phenomena. 

   
• The Ideal:

  This encompasses subjective experiences, values, aspirations, and concepts like truth, beauty, and justice that are often seen as products of human thought, emotion, and society. 

   

The Shift:

• The Enlightenment:

  This intellectual movement prioritized reason, individualism, and scientific inquiry, leading to a questioning of traditional authority and religious doctrines. 

   
• Rise of Science:

  As scientific methods gained prominence, they provided a powerful means of understanding the natural world, leading to its increasing separation from divine explanations. 

   
• Focus on the Subjective:

  The emphasis shifted from a divinely ordered universe to the power of human reason, individual consciousness, and the subjective realm of human experience and values. 

   

This transition reflects a move from a holistic, integrated understanding of reality to a view that compartmentalizes the world into the observable and the subjective, driven by a profound shift in how humanity understood its place in the universe. 

 

:)  

[Cobie]

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Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[Nungali]

However this does stop the 'third reality'  intruding into the modern 2 part world view    

 

 

 

Harpur's starting-point is that vast numbers of ordinary, reliable people, with no track record of involvement in Otherworldly phenomena, who would be regarded as reliable witnesses in all other circumstances, persist in reporting vivid encounters with the denizens of the otherworld. Those encounters in our age are likely to be with alleged aliens, large or small, but bear uncanny resemblances to the age-old encounters with faerie folk, spirits, and other manifestations of different places and other times.... The standard response to all this is to argue either that it is all in us, in the form of persistent patterns of hallucination or madness; or the projection of archetypal patterns onto reality. Alternatively, the phenomena are taken seriously as being evidence of something really out there in the physical world, as aliens visiting the Earth, or prehistoric creatures living in deep cold lakes etc. Harpur pursues a different, and more challenging line. What is at stake, he suggests, is the nature of reality itself.
     With Jung, Harpur argues that these are phenomena of the psyche, but that psyche is of the world, not just of us as individuals. Indeed, our much cherished individual selves and psyches may be no more than embodiments of that world-soul (rediscovered in our age as the goddess Gaia). The phenomena in which the book rejoices may be appearances to us of its ancient inhabitants. They appear in different forms to match changing cultural expectations and concerns. An appearance of the Goddess becomes an appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary, becomes a woman with golden hair emerging from her spacecraft. The mistake, he suggests, is to deny and repress these manifestations, since the repressed returns, pathologically and dangerously, if separated from a context of meaning and belief. Harpur suggests that a function of these daimonic forces may now be to undermine a deadening and narrow scientific orthodoxy and world-view - the 'single vision' which Blake so deplored. This sounds very radical but Harpur is the first to point out that it is not very new. By drawing on a philosophical tradition that flows down the centuries from the Neoplatonists, through the Romantics, and crucially in Bake, Yeats and Jung, he shows that there is an ancient history of understanding of this daimonic, Otherworld reality. Indeed, he goes back further still by embracing the folklore and tales of the Otherworld from across the Western tradition, and acknowledges that every culture, except perhaps our own, has seen its world as interpenetrated with another, shadowy, yet powerful reality, full of wonder, beauty and terror. The key to being alert to it lies in what Blake called the Imagination, and in not allowing the rational mind to shut out what it cannot readily comprehend or control.

 

[Cobie]

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Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie