Is It Over? The Dao Bums Fall

[Nungali]

OKay sorry .... just like down over here and I will bring you some tea .....

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

According to marriage researcher John Gottman, successful couples have at least five positive interactions for every negative one.  I suspect this ratio applies to our experiences as forum participants as well.  Bums that routinely come away from their experience here feeling unsupported, unseen, and unheard are likely headed for a divorce; enough divorces and goodbye forum.  And so I´m trying to master the delicate art of expressing healthy disagreement on occasion without giving my fellow Bums the finger, to find the balance between milquetoast Mr. Nice Guy and Mortal Combat.  It´s a work in progress.

Edited Thursday at 05:06 PM by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

According to marriage researcher John Gottman, successful couples have at least five positive interactions for every negative one.  I suspect this ratio applies to our experiences as forum participants as well.  Bums that routinely come away from their experience here feeling unsupported, unseen, and unheard are likely headed for a divorce; enough divorces and goodbye forum.  And so I´m trying to master the delicate art of expressing healthy disagreement on occasion without giving my fellow Bums the finger.  It´s a work in progress.

 

What's unhealthy about giving the finger to someone who needs one?  Sometimes that finger points to the moon...  the sun... the stars... as in, "pull your head outta your ass and see the light!"       

[liminal_luke]

55 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

What's unhealthy about giving the finger to someone who needs one?  Sometimes that finger points to the moon...  the sun... the stars... as in, "pull your head outta your ass and see the light!"       

 

That´s a good question to ponder.  @Nungali has recently implied that I´m overly concerned with my popularity, or at least that´s the conclusion I took away from reading some of his recent posts.  Personality-wise, it´s true that I tend to shy away from interpersonal conflict.  Would I be better off giving more fingers?  Some would say yes.  

 

I´m remembering an incident that took place at a celebratory lunch after my brother graduated with medical school.  One of my uncle´s explained that he was late because he´d just come back from giving a speech about the unmitigated drivel that is all of alternative medicine.  A doctor himself, my uncle was employed by a chemical company to defend all sorts of toxic corporate shenanigans.  He made no secret of his contempt for homeopathy, chinese medicine, pretty much all the healing modalities I believed in.  Anyway, I sat through that lunch listening to him express all sorts of opinions I disagreed with -- and yet I said nothing.  My sister-in-laws mother later took me to task: why didn´t I stick up for my point of view?  

 

In retrospect, do I regret not defending my beliefs?  I don´t.  The event was to celebrate my brother´s accomplishment and I didn´t want to take away from that.  I also knew that there was no way I was going to change my uncle´s mind -- so why try.  Still, I do think there are plenty of occasions where assertiveness, even giving the finger, is the best move.  It´s good, I think, to have finger giving in one´s behavioral repetoire.

 

You´re a tiger Taomeow.  (Nungali, something of a honey badger.)  I´m somewhat less ferocious but who knows?  I may get my growl on yet.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 06:09 PM by liminal_luke

[心神 ~]

On 8/14/2025 at 1:00 PM, liminal_luke said:

According to marriage researcher John Gottman, successful couples have at least five positive interactions for every negative one.  I suspect this ratio applies to our experiences as forum participants as well.  Bums that routinely come away from their experience here feeling unsupported, unseen, and unheard are likely headed for a divorce; enough divorces and goodbye forum.  And so I´m trying to master the delicate art of expressing healthy disagreement on occasion without giving my fellow Bums the finger, to find the balance between milquetoast Mr. Nice Guy and Mortal Combat.  It´s a work in progress.

 

I think you're quite right. If interactions are an exchange of energy, and if a degree of equilibrium is important for social and psychological cohesion, then it's essential to consider what energy is given and what energy is taken.

 

It also helps to know what individual goals and approaches are. Eric Berne wrote a book about transactional games analysis called Games People Play. It's about how and why people structure their time, and focuses on an element called Game Playing, which is unconscious, manipulative social interaction that seeks to fulfill a psychological need.

 

Long story short, everyone is seeking to get their needs met and has different ways of doing so (games). Many games are already relationally damaging, and when people come together and want to play different games, or disagree about game roles and rules, even greater hostility ensues. 

 

At the basic level, if I want to play Ain't It Awful (ugh, this weather, am I right?) and you want to play Sunny Side Up (it's supposed to be sunny all next week!)... In this exchange, I want commiseration and you want to not have your good mood ruined. We aren't going to get far in our interaction, because neither of us is meeting the need or providing the interaction that the other is looking for. Here on the Bums, there's a tendency to play Courtroom and Now I've Got You, You Son of a *****.

 

I think it helps to identify the games being played by others, and to know what games one tends to personally play into, in order to opt out without contributing further to discord. It's a lot easier to let go of frustration when you realize almost everyone is operating on an unconscious script designed to meet their needs. It might not be healthy, but it sure is human.

 

Edited yesterday at 01:18 PM by 心神 ~

[Daeluin]

Good to see some old friends are still around. If y'all are bored, go read my last post. 

[心神 ~]

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Anyway, I sat through that lunch listening to him express all sorts of opinions I disagreed with -- and yet I said nothing.  My sister-in-laws mother later took me to task: why didn´t I stick up for my point of view?  

 

Would it have mattered? Is he the sort to take differing perspectives into consideration? Unless there is a benefit to you or someone else, why throw pearls before swine? 

 

If she was present, why didn't your sister-in-law's mother come to the defense of said topics, since it was seemingly important to her? Why should she request an expense of your energy, while not expending her own? 

 

Why engage in someone's contempt and make yourself an enemy in their eyes? Perhaps it's better to avail yourself of beneficial knowledge and be a reliable source of information when a contemptuous relative falls ill and suddenly finds themselves open to health alternatives. Then you'll be in a position to assist by sharing what you have applied and understood well in your own life, and you will be an ally, not an adversary.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

That´s a good question to ponder.  @Nungali has recently implied that I´m overly concerned with my popularity, or at least that´s the conclusion I took away from reading some of his recent posts.  Personality-wise, it´s true that I tend to shy away from interpersonal conflict.  Would I be better off giving more fingers?  Some would say yes.  

 

 

I don't oppose either shying away from interpersonal conflict or letting it unfold -- it's situational, it depends on a bunch of things, one of them being one's values... e.g. what do people value more -- to be on good germs with everybody or to be on good terms with themselves.  The first one is more of an Asian value -- old China, Japan, places where people lived together in closely knit communities and it was important to have good relationships with the neighbors.  The periodic outbursts of incredible communal violence and cruelty toward anyone not towing the line illustrate the limitations of this approach...   The second one is more Western, more individualistic -- "my truth" must be expressed, key word "my," and I take no prisoners.  Obviously there's limitations to that approach too.

 

I think it's wise to suppress sometimes, express at other times provided both are chosen consciously rather than driven by unconscious imperatives.  One chronic line of behavior applied to all (or most) circumstances is not as healthy IMO as occasionally giving the finger or occasionally giving a reassuring pat on the back.

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You´re a tiger Taomeow. 

 

  

You do have a bazi sense.   Tiger (or rather tigress, she's yin) is just one of my Four Animals, and not the leader of the pack -- not my Year animal and not even my Month animal.  Like all cats, she takes the longest naps...  but she can't be sleeping all the time.   And like all cats, she doesn't like it when someone steps on her tail, especially on purpose. 

Meow.    

[liminal_luke]

55 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I don't oppose either shying away from interpersonal conflict or letting it unfold -- it's situational, it depends on a bunch of things, one of them being one's values... e.g. what do people value more -- to be on good germs with everybody or to be on good terms with themselves.  The first one is more of an Asian value -- old China, Japan, places where people lived together in closely knit communities and it was important to have good relationships with the neighbors.  The periodic outbursts of incredible communal violence and cruelty toward anyone not towing the line illustrate the limitations of this approach...   The second one is more Western, more individualistic -- "my truth" must be expressed, key word "my," and I take no prisoners.  Obviously there's limitations to that approach too.

 

I think it's wise to suppress sometimes, express at other times provided both are chosen consciously rather than driven by unconscious imperatives.  One chronic line of behavior applied to all (or most) circumstances is not as healthy IMO as occasionally giving the finger or occasionally giving a reassuring pat on the back.

 

 

Well put.  I think giving people the finger occasionally can help maintain self-respect.  God knows, many people deserve it.  It´s a forceful way of saying NO, and sometimes saying no is exactly what a situation calls for.  

 

While it´s true that I mostly refrain from criticizing other Bums, I´d like to point out that I´m not one to keep the peace at all costs.  I´ve been quite vocal about expressing my political views (back when we still had a Current Event section) even when I knew that doing so would cost me socially.  

[心神 ~]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

I think it's wise to suppress sometimes, express at other times provided both are chosen consciously rather than driven by unconscious imperatives.

 

Beautifully said.

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

 

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 I´m trying to master the delicate art of expressing healthy disagreement on occasion without giving my fellow Bums the finger,

 

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

What's unhealthy about giving the finger...

as in, "pull your head outta your ass

 

 

i received recently a quite helpful and practical recommendation here on Dao Bums which i have taken to heart.

 

On 8/10/2025 at 2:38 PM, liminal_luke said:

but you might want to cultivate good relationships.  

 

that for me is a valuable gold standard in terms of looking at behavior and evaluating how i choose to respond, or whether i choose to respond.  with regards to the specific behaviors  just mentioned (giving the finger, "pull your head out of your ass"), my view is those do not meet the criteria for cultivating good relationship.

 

My view is that "cultivating good relationships" (in a personal context, not talking about society or culture or countries or history) is neither from pressure to conform , nor is it supression of indiividuality.    Rather for me it is an indicator of maintaining balance, order, and harmony, which are important for me to actively cultivate in my own life.  

 

as noted in this thread, it is about what each individual person values and prioritizes and cultivates in their own  life and interactions.  So of course there is a lot of variation.  

 

Edited Thursday at 09:40 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Taomeow]

Snip-quoting me masterfully and relentlessly toward distorting the meaning and context of my words and slapping together, out of those poor disenfranchised snippets, a straw man to prevail over is a brilliant strategy toward that goal.   

Edited Thursday at 09:51 PM by Taomeow

[liminal_luke]

23 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

 

 

 

i received recently a quite helpful and practical recommendation here on Dao Bums which i have taken to heart.

 

 

that for me is a valuable gold standard in terms of looking at behavior and evaluating how i choose to respond, or whether i choose to respond.  with regards to the specific behaviors  just mentioned (giving the finger, "pull your head out of your ass"), my view is those do not meet the criteria for cultivating good relationship.

 

My view is that "cultivating good relationships" (in a personal context, not talking about society or culture or countries or history) is neither from pressure to conform , nor is it supression of indiividuality.    Rather for me it is an indicator of maintaining balance, order, and harmony, which are important for me to actively cultivate in my own life.  

 

as noted in this thread, it is about what each individual person values and prioritizes and cultivates in their own  life and interactions.  So of course there is a lot of variation.  

 

 

I didn´t realize you found that post of mine helpful -- thanks so much for letting me know.  Criticism, even when gentle and meant constructively, is very rarely useful because most people are unable to take it in.  Most of us, myself very much included, are sensitive and our defensives immediately go up if we get a whiff of criticism.  So I think it says something commendable about your character that you´re able to process feedback.

 

I agree that telling someone to "pull their head out of their ass" isn´t interpersonally useful.  Especially on the board where, for the most part, we don´t know each other in person.  But I agree with Taomeow that it can be useful to say as a matter of maintaining self-respect.  There have been a few times over the years where I´ve felt mistreated by my fellow Bums.  Looking back, I wish that I´d stuck up for myself more forcefully.  I might have felt better if I´d told a few people to pull their heads out of the asses.  That phrase wouldn´t of helped our relationships, but it might have helped me.

 

I remember a fight I got into in eighth grade.  A schoolmate of mine was constantly bullying me and I felt terrible about it, but didn´t want to fight.  Finally I got up my nerve and punched him one day.  Back at home, I remember looking at my face in the mirror.  I had a busted up lip and looked like I´d taken a beating, but I felt great.  I´d finally sent a message that I couldn´t be pushed around without consequence.  I was a worthy human being who deserved to be treated with dignity.  It´s a lesson I´m still learning some fifty years later.

Edited Thursday at 10:00 PM by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

That´s a good question to ponder.  @Nungali has recently implied that I´m overly concerned with my popularity, or at least that´s the conclusion I took away from reading some of his recent posts.  Personality-wise, it´s true that I tend to shy away from interpersonal conflict.  Would I be better off giving more fingers?  Some would say yes.  

 

I´m remembering an incident that took place at a celebratory lunch after my brother graduated with medical school.  One of my uncle´s explained that he was late because he´d just come back from giving a speech about the unmitigated drivel that is all of alternative medicine.  A doctor himself, my uncle was employed by a chemical company to defend all sorts of toxic corporate shenanigans.  He made no secret of his contempt for homeopathy, chinese medicine, pretty much all the healing modalities I believed in.  Anyway, I sat through that lunch listening to him express all sorts of opinions I disagreed with -- and yet I said nothing.  My sister-in-laws mother later took me to task: why didn´t I stick up for my point of view?  

 

In retrospect, do I regret not defending my beliefs?  I don´t.  The event was to celebrate my brother´s accomplishment and I didn´t want to take away from that.  I also knew that there was no way I was going to change my uncle´s mind -- so why try.  Still, I do think there are plenty of occasions where assertiveness, even giving the finger, is the best move.  It´s good, I think, to have finger giving in one´s behavioral repetoire.

 

You´re a tiger Taomeow.  (Nungali, something of a honey badger.)  I´m somewhat less ferocious but who knows?  I may get my growl on yet.

 

 

 

 

About bloody time too !    

 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I was a worthy human being who deserved to be treated with dignity. 

 

yes you are, and yes you do 

❤️                        ❤️

[Nungali]

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I didn´t realize you found that post of mine helpful -- thanks so much for letting me know.  Criticism, even when gentle and meant constructively, is very rarely useful because most people are unable to take it in.  Most of us, myself very much included, are sensitive and our defensives immediately go up if we get a whiff of criticism.  So I think it says something commendable about your character that you´re able to process feedback.

 

I agree that telling someone to "pull their head out of their ass" isn´t interpersonally useful.  Especially on the board where, for the most part, we don´t know each other in person.  But I agree with Taomeow that it can be useful to say as a matter of maintaining self-respect.  There have been a few times over the years where I´ve felt mistreated by my fellow Bums.  Looking back, I wish that I´d stuck up for myself more forcefully.  I might have felt better if I´d told a few people to pull their heads out of the asses.  That phrase wouldn´t of helped our relationships, but it might have helped me.

 

I remember a fight I got into in eighth grade.  A schoolmate of mine was constantly bullying me and I felt terrible about it, but didn´t want to fight.  Finally I got up my nerve and punched him one day.  Back at home, I remember looking at my face in the mirror.  I had a busted up lip and looked like I´d taken a beating, but I felt great.  I´d finally sent a message that I couldn´t be pushed around without consequence.  I was a worthy human being who deserved to be treated with dignity.  It´s a lesson I´m still learning some fifty years later.

 

 

Now that is a much better way of putting it than   me 'over concerned with popularity '   .     I   thought you needed to  /  hunched  / I wanted you to   (for some reason )    .... how do I put this  ...... 'not be so retiring ..... yes, I suppose   'stick up for  yourself  more  ' . 

 

Great !   Loved the  honey badger   vid   ! 

 

(  But you realize they don't really exist , right ?   Its just urban mythology .    That's just what Mr Badger calls  Mrs Badger . )

[Cobie]

 

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

…  do I regret not defending my beliefs?  I don´t.  The event was to celebrate my brother´s accomplishment and I didn´t want to take away from that.  

 

The Liminal one is a good one,   

 

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

… I also knew that there was no way I was going to change my uncle´s mind -- so why try.  

 

and a brainy one. 

 

 

 

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

Add me to the list of people who stopped coming around but about once a year get the weird urge to log in and see how things are going 

 

This place was crazy back in the day, and a lot of things happened over a long period of time that changed the shape of the forum.

 

Reddit was great for a while but always had its pros and cons, and in the last few years those have gotten more pronounced, but does still seem to vary based on the community (and sometimes even the time of day that you post!) 

 

I will also say that (and this may be me living under a rock), it doesn't seem like the qigong community itself has really changed much? It seems like most of the teachers are more or less the same, the books are more or less the same, maybe something new gets put out on a new author starts publishing stuff, are there any new crazy teachers or systems that are fueling the controversy posting that fueled the forum in years past? To me, I don't think so, but I don't even know...

 

So you are either doing the practice, or talking about thinking about doing the practice 

Edited Friday at 04:25 AM by Sloppy Zhang

[Taomeow]

23 minutes ago, Sloppy Zhang said:

Add me to the list of people who stopped coming around but about once a year get the weird urge to log in and see how things are going 

 

 

Hiya!   Long time no see.  

 

I'm still here, amazingly enough, been telling myself that enough is enough

every

single 

day

but cats are creatures of habit.  TDB somehow managed to hook onto my morning coffee/computer time and that's sacred (I mean, coffee is, computer not so much) so there you have it.   

And late in the evening -- my tiny cognac (a consolation prize since I can't have coffee before bed) -- and voila, there's this forum floating in the crystal snifter so I get a tiny portion of that too.  Not every single day of course.  But it explains how it happened that I'm still here.  By itself the habit wouldn't hold up.  It's all dopamine dynamics -- coffee is dope, a tiny cognac, ditto, and TDB is like a slice of lemon on the rim.  Which explains why sometimes it tastes sour, and sometimes sweet.  

 

Hope life's been treating you kindly.        

 

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

Just now, Taomeow said:

 

Hiya!   Long time no see.  

 

I'm still here, amazingly enough, been telling myself that enough is enough

every

single 

day

but cats are creatures of habit.  TDB somehow managed to hook onto my morning coffee/computer time and that's sacred (I mean, coffee is, computer not so much) so there you have it.   

And late in the evening -- my tiny cognac (a consolation prize since I can't have coffee before bed) -- and voila, there's this forum floating in the crystal snifter so I get a tiny portion of that too.  Not every single day of course.  But it explains how it happened that I'm still here.  By itself the habit wouldn't hold up.  It's all dopamine dynamics -- coffee is dope, a tiny cognac, ditto, and TDB is like a slice of lemon on the rim.  Which explains why sometimes it tastes sour, and sometimes sweet.  

 

Hope life's been treating you kindly.        

 

 

 

Great to see that you are still around! I don't know if you remember this, but you made a post back in the day about process oriented languages vs state oriented languages (if I'm recalling correctly...) and how that shapes a lot of spiritual/religions which had a big impact on me and something I still think about from time to time. There's been a lot of wisdom dropped around here and you were a big part of it! I also picked up a few books on Taoism and Feng Shui off your recommendations.

 

Last few years have been rough and the last year especially but I still consider myself fortunate compared to how things could have gone much worse  and gives me lots to meditate on and practice.

 

I hope things are good for you and the coffee and cognac continues for many more years! 

[liminal_luke]

@Nungali

 

It´s ironic that you´d suggest I get in touch with my assertive warrior side because the only Bum I´ve wanted to tell off lately is...you.  Casual readers likely don´t think you´ve said anything worthy of a finger, but somehow you´ve managed to get on my last nerves.  I´m tempted to throw my usual policy of maintaining forum decorum out the window and really let you have it.  Chances are the mods would suspend me, but would that really be so bad?  Everyone is thinking of quitting the board these days anyways.  Getting a suspension would be like being stopped by the cops on the highway, only instead of giving you a ticket for speeding they give you a coupon for all-you-can-eat breadsticks at the Olive Garden.  

 

Alas, I´m not going to do it.  Even though I don´t think you´d be offended; no, you´d probably think it was funny, or worse, congratulate yourself for helping my mental wellbeing.  Maybe someday.

[Lala Nila]

I hope it's not over, I just got here. As an outsider and not aware of the inter-relationship drama between members I will say this (and hope I'm not reprimanded for it).

 

Often times this forum can appear to be a little snooty and highbrow, especially to people who are just beginning on whatever path they're on. This appearance is intimidating to beginner who, like myself, can be afraid to post things in fear of being banned, ridiculed or simply ignored. Forums like these-  group dynamics tend to wax and wane, lot's of people come and go. The core posters have obviously known each other for over a decade, which is awesome but also comes with some troubles, and can be intimidating when new here.

 

This is just my opinion as an introvert, who has to go over in her head several times prior to any statement I make. Maybe it's just me projecting my own insecurities of being less knowledgable than everyone else here. I don't know.

 

The lexicon of knowledge here is unmatched on the internet. So many opinions, ideas, paths and little tidbits to glean from. It's a gem. and shouldn't be taken for granted.

 

This forum is literally the only place that I'm aware of that discusses somewhat freely on many topics (reddit is terrible and a cesspool). Ive been lurking on here for many years, but too afraid to comment or ask questions. I'm older now so maybe I care less about what others think of me, which is why I decided to finally join. 

 

Just my 2 cents and a newcomer, who would be disappointed if this place disappeared for good. 

[liminal_luke]

12 minutes ago, Lala Nila said:

I hope it's not over, I just got here. As an outsider and not aware of the inter-relationship drama between members I will say this (and hope I'm not reprimanded for it).

 

 

Welcome Lala Nila!  I´ve been here for years and often feel reprimanded, so I think it comes with the territory.  But there´s a lot of friendship and support to be had too.  The thing about the Bums is we´re such a varied group and I think there´s room for most everybody.  People have opinions, sometimes strong ones, but we were all beginners once (and some of us are still beginners no matter how long we´ve been here!).  Anyway, hope you enjoy your time here.

[old3bob]

8 minutes ago, Lala Nila said:

I hope it's not over, I just got here. As an outsider and not aware of the inter-relationship drama between members I will say this (and hope I'm not reprimanded for it).

 

Often times this forum can appear to be a little snooty and highbrow, especially to people who are just beginning on whatever path they're on. This appearance is intimidating to beginner who, like myself, can be afraid to post things in fear of being banned, ridiculed or simply ignored. Forums like these-  group dynamics tend to wax and wane, lot's of people come and go. The core posters have obviously known each other for over a decade, which is awesome but also comes with some troubles, and can be intimidating when new here.

 

This is just my opinion as an introvert, who has to go over in her head several times prior to any statement I make. Maybe it's just me projecting my own insecurities of being less knowledgable than everyone else here. I don't know.

 

The lexicon of knowledge here is unmatched on the internet. So many opinions, ideas, paths and little tidbits to glean from. It's a gem. and shouldn't be taken for granted.

 

This forum is literally the only place that I'm aware of that discusses somewhat freely on many topics (reddit is terrible and a cesspool). Ive been lurking on here for many years, but too afraid to comment or ask questions. I'm older now so maybe I care less about what others think of me, which is why I decided to finally join. 

 

Just my 2 cents and a newcomer, who would be disappointed if this place disappeared for good. 

 

knowledge of the head type only can be overrated so take it with a grain of salt, so to speak.  When or if a wild, wild west atmosphere develops here its really  just part of the big ball of wax that goes on with human beings interactions and I'd say not to be taken all that personally heart-wise or as the only standard of acting, reacting or judgement since such too will pass...or change

 

[Lala Nila]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Welcome Lala Nila!  I´ve been here for years and often feel reprimanded, so I think it comes with the territory.  But there´s a lot of friendship and support to be had too.  The thing about the Bums is we´re such a varied group and I think there´s room for most everybody.  People have opinions, sometimes strong ones, but we were all beginners once (and some of us are still beginners no matter how long we´ve been here!).  Anyway, hope you enjoy your time here.

 

Hi Liminial_Luke, thanks for the warm regards. yes, I expect to be reprimanded at times because I'm still like a child. The friendliness between members, camaraderie and general sharing is what I really admire about this little corner of the internet. Strong opinions are good, revealing passion and fortitude in one's beliefs. Thanks again!