It is right in front of you!

[stirling]

Quote

It is right in front of you! - Huang Po, Sixth Zen Patriarch

 

Whatever practice you are doing, cherishing, holding out as THE way in... isn't. What you are looking isn't the words, or the movements, the visualizations, the breath... any "thing". What you are looking for is what is in between all of those "things". 

 

Quote

1. Thirty spokes unite in one hub; 
2. It is precisely where there is nothing, that we find the usefulness of the wheel. 
3. We fire clay and make vessels; 
4. It is precisely where there's no substance, that we find the usefulness of clay pots. 
5. We chisel out doors and windows; 
6. It is precisely in these empty spaces, that we find the usefulness of the room. 
7. Therefore, we regard having something as beneficial; 
8. But having nothing as useful. - Dao De Jing, Chapter 11 (Henricks)

 

What you are seeking requires no "work" or "doing". I requires learning to stop doing.

[Cobie]

Lol, I fear this is going to be a very short thread indeed. When you’re right you’re right. Done and dusted. 
 

 

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It requires learning to stop doing.
 

 

Tell 'em to stop, stirling--make 'em stop!  

 

The Master said to me: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you–begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient things, but that sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood.
 

By their very seeking they lose it, for that is using the Buddha to seek for the Buddha and using mind to grasp Mind. Even though they do their utmost for a full aeon, they will not be able to attain to it. They do not know that, if they put a stop to conceptual thought and forget their anxiety, the Buddha will appear before them, for this Mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not the less for being manifested in ordinary beings, nor is it greater for being manifested in the Buddhas.

("The Zen Teaching of Huang Po On the Transmission of Mind", tr. John Blofeld, Part One)

 

Edited Friday at 11:02 PM by Mark Foote

[steve]

On 7/18/2025 at 12:46 PM, Cobie said:

Lol, I fear this is going to be a very short thread indeed. When you’re right you’re right. Done and dusted. 
 

 

 

A short thread... about emptiness/Source/Self/Dao/whatever.... on DaoBums....

 

Yeah, right

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

On 7/18/2025 at 9:02 AM, stirling said:

Whatever practice you are doing, cherishing, holding out as THE way in... isn't. What you are looking isn't the words, or the movements, the visualizations, the breath... any "thing". What you are looking for is what is in between all of those "things". 

What you are seeking requires no "work" or "doing". I requires learning to stop doing.

 

a. learning is itself a form of doing

b. learning is more spinning in the mind

c. practices are useful in cultivating stillness

 

 

[steve]

On 7/18/2025 at 12:02 PM, stirling said:

 

Whatever practice you are doing, cherishing, holding out as THE way in... isn't. What you are looking isn't the words, or the movements, the visualizations, the breath... any "thing". What you are looking for is what is in between all of those "things". 

 

 

What you are seeking requires no "work" or "doing". I requires learning to stop doing.

 

It can be a lot of work to try to do nothing!

And when we finally see what @stirling so expertly and consistently points towards, we see how much wasted effort we've expended.

It's comical in retrospect but frustrating and very serious when we're in the thick of it.

I like how Peter Fenner once put it, 'if we didn't do what we didn't need to do, we wouldn't know we didn't need to do it.'

But if we can truly trust in opening and letting everything be just as it is for a moment, we can shortcut the process considerably.

 

How unfamiliar it can be to spend much time just feeling stillness, hearing silence, embracing openness, doing nothing at all, just leaving everything as it is. What a waste of time, it seems, in such a materialistic and productivity based culture.

It's very simple but not very easy because we are so familiar with, even addicted to, the movement, the sound, the content and activity of the mind.

We are so primed for transactional relationship that anything else seems like a failure.

It seems so foreign to think the ultimate method is.... doing nothing at all. 

But that nothing embraces everything, far more than our limited intellect can readily access or appreciate. 

 

I was once talking with a friend at a campfire about these things and he was going on and on, waxing philosophical about the nature of this and that. Something possessed me to break this loop of logic and I spontaneously let out a loud shriek. He looked at me shocked, as was I, and I simply held his gaze. Within a second or two, in the silence that followed the interruption, I could see the dawning of recognition on his face and we both broke into laughter, then just sat together in silence. 

It was pretty cool. Never did that before or since.

Sometimes that stuff just comes out at the right time. 

[stirling]

28 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

a. learning is itself a form of doing

b. learning is more spinning in the mind

c. practices are useful in cultivating stillness

 

Good catch! Unlearning, or letting doing fall away might be more accurate. 

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

… Yeah, right

 

Lol, I spoke too early.  Good to see ‘steve’ back, no doubt still ‘ben way’ [or as I read it, 本道 (ben3 dao4) truth]

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 07:34 PM by Cobie

[old3bob]

Hello Steve,

Part of what you posted:

"I was once talking with a friend at a campfire about these things and he was going on and on, waxing philosophical about the nature of this and that. Something possessed me to break this loop of logic and I spontaneously let out a loud shriek. He looked at me shocked, as was I, and I simply held his gaze. Within a second or two, in the silence that followed the interruption, I could see the dawning of recognition on his face and we both broke into laughter, then just sat together in silence. 

It was pretty cool. Never did that before or since.   Sometimes that stuff just comes out at the right time." 

 

a friend and I were also once talking about philosophical stuff and he reflected saying,  "I'm going to try the eternity trip someday" we then looked at each other for a second or two and chuckled ;-)

[old3bob]

 

variation on the OP,  or right under your nose...

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

On 7/18/2025 at 9:02 AM, stirling said:

What you are seeking requires no "work" or "doing". 

 

Be still and know that I AM God.

   ---Tehillim 46:11

 

The Hebrew word   רָפָה  "rapha" [the Psalms were written in Hebrew] 

can mean "be still" and it can also mean "cease striving"

Other meanings are "be relaxed" and "heal"

As in the archangel Raphael

 

Edited Saturday at 08:37 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[Cobie]

… 敚[糸禾]，  … Silent and still,
独立而不亥，it stands on its own and does not change. 
… 字之曰道。 … We refer to it as the Dao.  (DDJ ch. 25 , Henricks)
 

Edited Saturday at 08:55 PM by Cobie

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

A short thread... about emptiness/Source/Self/Dao/whatever.... on DaoBums....

 

Yeah, right

 

 

 

 

Wait up  ! 

 

" Steve on the Internet '  is back ?  

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

It can be a lot of work to try to do nothing!

And when we finally see what @stirling so expertly and consistently points towards, we see how much wasted effort we've expended.

It's comical in retrospect but frustrating and very serious when we're in the thick of it.

I like how Peter Fenner once put it, 'if we didn't do what we didn't need to do, we wouldn't know we didn't need to do it.'

But if we can truly trust in opening and letting everything be just as it is for a moment, we can shortcut the process considerably.

 

How unfamiliar it can be to spend much time just feeling stillness, hearing silence, embracing openness, doing nothing at all, just leaving everything as it is. What a waste of time, it seems, in such a materialistic and productivity based culture.

It's very simple but not very easy because we are so familiar with, even addicted to, the movement, the sound, the content and activity of the mind.

We are so primed for transactional relationship that anything else seems like a failure.

It seems so foreign to think the ultimate method is.... doing nothing at all. 

But that nothing embraces everything, far more than our limited intellect can readily access or appreciate. 

 

I was once talking with a friend at a campfire about these things and he was going on and on, waxing philosophical about the nature of this and that. Something possessed me to break this loop of logic and I spontaneously let out a loud shriek. He looked at me shocked, as was I, and I simply held his gaze. Within a second or two, in the silence that followed the interruption, I could see the dawning of recognition on his face and we both broke into laughter, then just sat together in silence. 

It was pretty cool. Never did that before or since.

Sometimes that stuff just comes out at the right time. 

 

Love it !  

 

around the camp fire ... eventually , one  Aboriginal chap to another  ;  "Them whitefellahs talk a lot, don't they ."  

 

  

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Lol, I spoke too early.  Good to see ‘steve’ back, no doubt still ‘ben way’ [or as I read it, 本道 (ben3 dao4) truth]

 

 

 

 

Ohhhhh ... that's where he has been  !      'ben away '     

 

Spoiler

A man is sitting on the  front step  outside having an early morning ciggy . 

 

The garbage truck comes down the street 

 

Garbo ;  " Where's ya bin ? "

 

Man ; " Ohhhhhh  ..........   bin away ." 

 

Garbo ;  " Noooo ... where is ya wheelie bin ? "

 

Man;  " Ohhhh .... okay then  ..... I   got in some twouble ... and I weally bin in jail   ."  

 

[forestofclarity]

I'll give one perspective on this: 

 

The first question: what is the problem? Without identifying the problem properly, any attempt at a solution is bound to fail. In the path of knowing, jnani yoga or buddhist prajna, the problem is ignorance (avidya or ajnana). If this is the problem, then the solution must be knowledge (vidya or jnana or prajna). So it is entirely possible to be action-less while remaining in ignorance. 

 

But knowledge of what? Generally, it is knowing the true nature of one's mind. Fortunately, the 1) knowing and 2) what is to be known is already right here, so indeed there is nothing more to be added or gained (on the path of knowing anyway). 

 

However, I agree that practices, diets, yogas, and actions themselves do not necessarily lead to knowledge, I do think they can make knowledge more likely. How so? By reducing the solidifying, dark inducing aspects of ignorance, i.e. tamoguna. Also, the mind tends to be quite agitated, flitting from here to there--- i.e. rajoguna. So if the mind is stirred up and sleepy, it will be difficult to see what the mind is, and it will be difficult to fix the attention where we want to fix it. So certain practices may render the mind more clear and sattvic and our attention more secure, in which case it will be easier to know the truth. These would be supportive practices.

 

But this might not be right for someone pursuing theistic devotion, or action oriented good works, etc. 

 

[Cobie]

 

20 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

… it is entirely possible to be action-less while remaining in ignorance. …

Thank you for giving your perspective. My experience is different. My experience is that my natural state is to be aware. It was only by tensing my body that I could enter the lie of unawareness. So in my experience unawareness requires action.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Cobie

[forestofclarity]

18 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Thank you for giving your perspective. My experience is different. My experience is that my natural state is to be aware. It was only by tensing my body that I could enter the lie of unawareness. So in my experience unawareness requires action.

 

I would agree that my nature is also (ultimately) awareness, but also (relative) ignorance arises within awareness. For example, during dreaming and deep sleep. 

[Mark Foote]

18 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Thank you for giving your perspective. My experience is different. My experience is that my natural state is to be aware. It was only by tensing my body that I could enter the lie of unawareness. So in my experience unawareness requires action, while awareness is the result of stopping this action.

 

 

 

My abbreviation of Gautama's four "arisings of mindfulness"--he was even harping on about the four arising just before he checked out:

 

1) Relax the activity of the body, in inhalation and exhalation;

2) Find a feeling of ease and calm the senses connected with balance, in inhalation and exhalation;

3) Appreciate and detach from thought, in inhalation and exhalation;

4) Look to the free location of consciousness for the automatic activity of the body, in inhalation and exhalation.

 

What has that got to do with the "profound knowledge", or "intuitive wisdom", that Gautama cited as the essential ingredient of enlightenment--bearing in mind that enlightenment to Gautama implied the complete destruction of the craving for sense-pleasures, the craving “to continue, to survive, to be” (tr. “bhava”, Bhikkyu Sujato), and the craving not “to be” (the craving for the ignorance of being)?

 

Not a lot, since Gautama said the mindfulness that was his way of living was his way of living before he was enlightened as well as afterward. Everything to do with "stopping", though, in my opinion. A unique aspect of Gautama's teaching was that he separated "stopping" with regard to habit and volition in inhalation and exhalation from "stopping" with regard to habit and volition in feeling and perceiving, and taught that the former preceded the latter.

Nevertheless, as I am writing now:

 

In one of his letters, twelfth-century Ch’an teacher Yuanwu wrote:
 

Actually practice at this level for twenty or thirty years and cut off all the verbal demonstrations and creeping vines and useless devices and states, until you are free from conditioned mind. Then this will be the place of peace and bliss where you stop and rest.

Thus it is said: “If you are stopping now, then stop. If you seek a time when you finish, there will never be a time when you finish.”

(“Zen Letters:  Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr. Cleary & Cleary, Shambala p 99)

 

... When the body rests from volition, so does the mind, even in the midst of activity. In my experience, that is how the “creeping vines” of the mind come to be cut off.
 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Mark Foote