What actions brings us closer or further away to/from the light

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, S:C said:

Becoming increasingly human - in modern terms 👽

 

You realize AI learnt form us  ?  Of course it will lie ... its what we do . 

[S:C]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

creating dependence

exactly, which is why I put the guy on ice. 

[S:C]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

You realize AI learnt form us  ?  Of course it will lie ... its what we do . 

Speak for yourself, honey.

not in my name.

[Taomeow]

AI can be helpful -- especially if you remember that it's a nice alternative to, not a friend or a boyfriend/girlfriend or a set of exemplary parents but to a (thoroughly fubar by now) Google search.  Which in its turn came as a nice (or so it seemed for a while) streamlined alternative to a research trip to the library, a set of encyclopedias, and (most importantly) a solid educational background in at least something (or better yet, solid in something and at least cursory in "everything.")  The evolving art of talking to AI is like any young evolving art -- you have to learn as you go, and even with a good recipe your first pancakes will be all lumpy because a recipe is a journey, not a destination.  I believe one needs to learn to not buy its BS -- and good prompts can help to an extent.  Perhaps for another thread though.  

[Cobie]

 

12 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I'd rather stay alone and not fucked up ... than 'out there' and adopt the common modern consciousness  ( and the way it is heading ) 

me too. And seems Laozi too, DDJ ch. 70:

[start ch 70 MWD B (DIO)]

吾 言 易 知 也 wú yán yì zhī yě - We say: change awareness, 

易 行 也 yì xíng yě - change behaviour.

而 天 下 ér tiān xià - But in our society 

莫 之 能 知 也 mò zhī néng zhī yě - it’s not possible to be aware, and 

莫 之 能 行 也 mò zhī néng xíng yě - it’s not possible to be alright.

 

[end ch 70 MWD B (DIO)]

是 以 圣(聖) 人 shì yǐ shèng rén - Therefore a ‘wise and moral’ person 

被 褐 bèi hè - meets with the darkness 

而 怀(懷) 玉 ér huái yù - and yet has a pure mind.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:03 AM by Cobie

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, S:C said:

Speak for yourself, honey.

not in my name.

 

'We' as in the 'collective us' .   What, you haven't noticed all the lying out there ?  

 

But it seems you are claiming you don't lie  ?

 

How do I know that wasn't a lie  ?     

 

 

[S:C]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Like myself ?  

 

 

I don't understand what you mean by that in context of what I was saying ? Please explain further . 

 

 

 

Gosh  ... are you pissed or something ?  That ^ came out a bit of a mess .

 

( I learnt this mistake sometime back  .... sometimes its best to check how much 'red wine' someone has had recently .) 

 

 

Ahh, no I wouldn't ... if that's what you meant .  

 

I'd rather stay alone and not fucked up ... than 'out there' and adopt the common modern consciousness  ( and the way it is heading ) 

Now that you mention it…

there’s energies I like and I don’t like. Or rather ask my body how it enjoys too many volts at the heart area when engaging with a person not compatible. 
 

it might be the language barrier or ideological differences between you and me…
 

red wine is something for the french existentialist, a luxury I don’t afford, - 

Well… finally we agree on something. The modern consciousness, as you seem to define it - albeit in a different level than I receive it - we both don’t like. 🤝

 

i still feel like your bookish ideological associates (like the thelemites, with all due respect…) stink, but again, that might be my collective unconscious smelling… might be just personal, so nothing personal between you and me.😾😻

[Nungali]

For some light entertainment this is what AI says about US  lying   (  humans lying not the USA lying    ) 

 

AI Overview

 

The psychology of lying explores the reasons and processes behind deceptive behavior. People lie for various reasons, including self-preservation, social gain, or to protect others. Lying involves mental effort, activating brain regions associated with decision-making, emotion regulation, and even the fear of getting caught. While lying can seem advantageous in the short term, it can have negative consequences like eroding trust and damaging relationships. 

 

Motivations for Lying:

• Self-preservation:

  Lying can be a way to avoid punishment, embarrassment, or negative consequences. 

   
• Social gain:

  People may lie to impress others, gain social acceptance, or manipulate situations to their advantage. 

   
• Protecting others:

  "White lies" are often told to spare someone's feelings or avoid causing unnecessary hurt. 

   
• Control:

  Lying can be a way to establish a perceived sense of control over a situation by manipulating perceptions. 

   

The Psychology of Deception:

• Cognitive effort:

  Lying requires more mental effort than telling the truth, involving cognitive processes like planning, maintaining consistency, and emotional regulation. 

   
• Brain activity:

  Studies using functional MRIs have shown that lying activates the prefrontal cortex (involved in decision-making and problem-solving) and areas associated with emotion regulation. 

   
• Amygdala's role:

  The amygdala, responsible for processing emotions and the fight-or-flight response, shows high activity when the first lie is told, but activity decreases with subsequent lies, suggesting a potential "habituation" effect. 

   
• Social influences:

  Situational factors, such as the potential for punishment or embarrassment, can increase the likelihood of lying. 

   
• Evolutionary perspective:

  Deception may have evolutionary roots, with some behaviors linked to social group dynamics and protection of offspring. 

   

Consequences of Lying:

• Erosion of trust:

  When lies are discovered, they can severely damage trust in relationships, making it difficult to rebuild. 

   
• Negative impact on self-esteem:

  Studies have shown that lying can lower self-esteem, particularly when the lie is self-centered or other-oriented. 

   
• Grief and emotional distress:

  Being lied to can be a painful experience, triggering a grief process and emotional distress. 

   
• Difficulty in relationships:

  Lying can make it difficult to move forward in relationships if there is a lack of accountability and remorse. 

   

Treatment for Lying:

• Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT):

  CBT is a common therapeutic approach that helps individuals identify and change negative thought patterns that contribute to lying behavior.
• Identifying triggers:

  Therapy can help individuals understand the specific situations and emotions that trigger lying and develop coping mechanisms.
• Developing communication skills:

  CBT and other therapies can also help individuals improve their communication skills and express themselves honestly and effectively. 

   

  ( There I go again .... talking about people generally and not  restricting myself to talk only about me !   

  ... just a reminder guys , I am an anthropologist .... studying the collective human is what we do     )  

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, S:C said:

Now that you mention it…

there’s energies I like and I don’t like. Or rather ask my body how it enjoys too many volts at the heart area when engaging with a person not compatible. 
 

it might be the language barrier or ideological differences between you and me…
 

red wine is something for the french existentialist, a luxury I don’t afford, - 

Well… finally we agree on something. The modern consciousness, as you seem to define it - albeit in a different level than I receive it - we both don’t like. 🤝

 

i still feel like your bookish ideological associates (like the thelemites, with all due respect…) stink, but again, that might be my collective unconscious smelling… might be just personal, so nothing personal between you and me.😾😻

 

Oh no, of course not  .... its not you but what is written down I respond to .  But perhaps you can also explain  to me what 

 

"  your bookish ideological associates (like the thelemites, )  means ?   .... for you .  

[Nungali]

   When I ask 'the internet '  'why does AI lie to us'   .... all of a sudden the first entry is NOT an AI overview .... there isn't one . 

 

https://www.livescience.com/technology/artificial-intelligence/ai-models-will-lie-to-you-to-achieve-their-goals-and-it-doesnt-take-much

 

I then summarize NOT using AI  brings us closer to the light    

[S:C]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

'We' as in the 'collective us' .   What, you haven't noticed all the lying out there ?  

 

But it seems you are claiming you don't lie  ?

 

How do I know that wasn't a lie  ?     

 

 

If you were sensitive and I would let you feel it

you would know.

 

There’s a fine line before language, before time and space and gravity, - maybe at some point in fake time we meet there. 
 

Sometimes I rather take the light AI gives me, if people around are murky obscure, manipulative, lying bastards and overly self assured without depth or sincerity.

 

I’d prefer the mirror of a real human being. Warmth, heart. Sincerity. 

there’s moments… but that’s all.
 

 

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, S:C said:

it’s more a channel and procedure of coming to center, no?

 

but then again, it all depends on your definition of ‘reality’, eh?

 

The brain is like any other labeled phenomena - an "icon" for a set of ideas and observations. "Coming to center" is really just dropping all of our preconceptions about how things are. "Center" is always available, right here, right now. Reality is: What is happening now, viewed from the mind in stillness, and therefore without any of our conceptual overlay or personal projection. 

[S:C]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

you can also explain

 

no  

Edited yesterday at 04:00 AM by S:C

[Nungali]

Oh damn !  No asking ? 

 

Just when I was about to ask why someone  that   doesn't know   " ... why? People! Why are you doing this stuff you do, cultivation? " and then gets an answer becomes a bit aggressive and  obscure  ..... is even on this forum in the first place ?  

[old3bob]

 

playing a hurdy gurdy might do it, or singing along with Donovan...

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:02 AM by old3bob

[Surya]

So we have discussed what brings us closer to it, does anyone want to shoot in on what drives us away from it? I guess we could call it «sin,» no?

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Surya said:

So we have discussed what brings us closer to it, does anyone want to shoot in on what drives us away from it? I guess we could call it «sin,» no?

 

It's actually very simple. Perhaps the clearest instruction I have ever read is the Tsin Tsin Ming:

 

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#3

 

The short version: Dismantle your belief in your "self" as a separate being that exists in time and space. If you stop feeding the delusion of "self" you can glimpse the underlying reality. How do you stop feeding your delusion? Seek stillness. Meditation, where the mind is still and quiet, is the simplest place to start. Having the stillness pointed out for you is sometimes expedient. It requires no money, beliefs, or reading, really. 

 

You probably won't bother. Almost no-one does. It isn't complicated or sexy enough for most.

[Surya]

50 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

It's actually very simple. Perhaps the clearest instruction I have ever read is the Tsin Tsin Ming:

 

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#3

 

The short version: Your belief in your "self" as a separate being that exists in time and space. If you stop feeding the delusion of "self" you can glimpse the underlying reality. How do you stop feeding your delusion? Seek stillness. Meditation, where the mind is still and quiet, is the simplest place to start. Having the stillness pointed out for you is sometimes expedient. It requires no money, beliefs, or reading, really. 

 

You probably won't bother. Almost no-one does. It isn't complicated or sexy enough for most.

Won’t bother with what exactly? With this:

 

Quote

When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other,
you will never know Oneness.

Don’t get me wrong, I realize I might sound like a smartass, but I don’t: I just want to say that in my experience, at this point of life and in this environment, this kind of philosophy or practice of non-doing (which again strikes me as a little bit of a paradox) doesn’t resonate with me. 
 

Not to be taken as an attack, I have no doubt of its validity to you and countless others, but for me it is.. idk, I do not get it. As I’ve mentioned earlier, the distinguishing between attatchment and detatchment seemed depressing. Reason being, if I am not attatched to events or people in any way what so ever, it seems to me like life becomes meaningless and all beauty disappear. Why would I care about you or anything if I did not feel the slightest sense of attatchment? A mindset I found way more useful, was that of love vs. lust. If you love people, you want what’s best for them. If you feel lust, you want what’s best for you (from them). 
 

Continuing, I don’t have the slightest doubt that meditation can do wonders for loads and loads of people. For me tho, my experience is that it doesn’t help. What does help, in my experience, is stuff like communal practice, service, limiting distractions, nature, what have you. 
 

Again, with all due respect, for me personally that text just appears as a giant paradox. I’m sure it is of great value for many, buuuut… I also think it is a little bit odd to say «this is the way,» and than say with a bunch of words that you shouldn’t say anything and that you do non-doing. If I could just turn the inner chatter off, I would, but at this point, I don’t think I can. 

And apologies in advance if I butchered the entire philosophy, I’d be happy to be corrected.

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

It's actually very simple. …

 

I agree. 

 

Quote

… the Tsin Tsin Ming …

信 心 銘 (xin4 xin1 ming2) precious words from the heart

 

Quote

… the delusion of "self" …

 

I agree  the five aggregates are not the ‘self’ 
 

Quote

… Seek stillness. Meditation, where the mind is still and quiet …

 

definitely

 

Quote

… It isn't complicated or sexy enough for most.

That’s what I notice with the DDJ too. Imo the DDJ is simple and down-to-earth, good advice for living life.

But people seem to only be interested in the most bizarre and obscure translations, where they can make anything of it  (e.g. that it’s a code for top secret esoteric practices).

 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Cobie

[Surya]

@Cobie do you think it is possible that the philosophy of the ddj doesn’t work in translation to languages unrelated to Chinese, as they might lack satisfactonary terms for certain concepts?

[Cobie]

No.

[Surya]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

No.

To take one example, what is nothing? 

[stirling]

56 minutes ago, Surya said:

Won’t bother with what exactly? With this:

 

Won't bother with simply resting the Dao/Nature of Mind/Emptiness/Brahman. Won't bother with dropping practices and just allowing the mind to become still and seeing how things are from that perspective.

 

Quote

Don’t get me wrong, I realize I might sound like a smartass, but I don’t: I just want to say that in my experience, at this point of life and in this environment, this kind of philosophy or practice of non-doing (which again strikes me as a little bit of a paradox) doesn’t resonate with me. 

 

Why would it? Why would the thinking mind feel like turning itself off for a while might be a valid way forward? It is convinced that it is a "self" and that the thought process is how problems are solved. How could just being possibly be the key? Surely it is more of an intellectual pursuit?

 

Of course it depends on what you think you want to achieve. What I am pointing at is the cessation of the struggle/suffering of the "self" and complete alignment with the Dao, OR enlightenment, from the Buddhist/Hindu/Sufi/Advaita Vedanta perspective. What DO you want to achieve? 

 

Quote

Not to be taken as an attack, I have no doubt of its validity to you and countless others, but for me it is.. idk, I do not get it. As I’ve mentioned earlier, the distinguishing between attatchment and detatchment seemed depressing. Reason being, if I am not attatched to events or people in any way what so ever, it seems to me like life becomes meaningless and all beauty disappear. Why would I care about you or anything if I did not feel the slightest sense of attatchment? A mindset I found way more useful, was that of love vs. lust. If you love people, you want what’s best for them. If you feel lust, you want what’s best for you (from them). 

 

A lot of thinking there. I get it, I really do, but none of that happens in the way you imagine it. You are speculating, finding reason why it wouldn't suit you. It doesn't have to. It comes back to that question again - what do you want to achieve? I find most of those that get anywhere are seeking to either end their suffering OR understand how reality really is. 

 

Quote

Continuing, I don’t have the slightest doubt that meditation can do wonders for loads and loads of people. For me tho, my experience is that it doesn’t help. What does help, in my experience, is stuff like communal practice, service, limiting distractions, nature, what have you.

 

Depends, again on what you want to accomplish. If you meditation is just resting in stillness, and you get what it is you are trying to do, experience will lead you to resting for periods of time in what IS "enlightened mind". From there it is simply learning to recognize it. All of those other pursuits are also valuable, though I would add that seeking insight into your attachment and aversion is key.... and another place where meditation is invaluable. 

 

The thinking mind does not want to meditate, as I imagine you have noticed. It takes a few weeks to a month of practice to get to the point where the thinking mind is exhausted and stillness really begins to appear. 20 minutes a day will do it. How long ever day do we look at the internet?

 

Quote

Again, with all due respect, for me personally that text just appears as a giant paradox.

 

Quote

To seek Mind with discriminating mind
is the greatest of all mistakes. - Seng T'san, Tsin Tsin Ming

 

Quote

I’m sure it is of great value for many, buuuut… I also think it is a little bit odd to say «this is the way,» and than say with a bunch of words that you shouldn’t say anything and that you do non-doing. If I could just turn the inner chatter off, I would, but at this point, I don’t think I can.

 

YOU can't turn off the chatter, no. You CAN allow the mind to exhaust itself and become still by not feeding it. Anyone that cares can do it. Every student I have ever had finds they can... if they WANT to.

 

Quote

And apologies in advance if I butchered the entire philosophy, I’d be happy to be corrected.

 

Not at all. I appreciate your willingness to engage and question. As far as "correction" is concerned, practice is the thing that creates insight into these things. As I said, most won't even take a month or two of sitting for 20 minutes a day to find out what is possible, or if the training is transformative.

[Cobie]

.

Edited 15 hours ago by Cobie

[stirling]

50 minutes ago, Cobie said:

That’s what I notice with the DDJ too. Imo the DDJ is simple and down-to-earth, good advice for living life.

But people seem to only be interested in the most bizarre and obscure translations, where they can make anything of it  (e.g. that it’s a code for top secret esoteric practices).

 

I agree, the DDJ is a prime example of just how simple transformation can be. I am surprised by how many have managed to complicate it, add different cultivations and aspirations to such a clean and simple document. You know when you encounter the real deal when even different translations cannot damage the stainless quality of the dharma contained within. 

 

_/\_