are spiritual masters involved in politics

[old3bob]

 

are spiritual masters involved in politics

"Yes, 

spiritual masters and leaders have been involved in politics throughout history and continue to be so. 

Historically:

• In various cultures and time periods, spiritual leaders like prophets, religious figures, and even royalty with strong spiritual leanings have played influential roles in political decision-making and power structures. For example, the Pope's influence over the crowning of kings in Europe or the reverence given to the advice of religious leaders in ancient societies. 

Modern Examples and Perspectives:

• Social and Political Advocacy: Many spiritual leaders view their involvement in politics as an extension of their spiritual calling to promote justice, compassion, and the well-being of their communities.
• Examples:
  • Martin Luther King Jr.: A Baptist minister who was a central figure in the American civil rights movement, using his faith to advocate for racial equality and justice.
  • Desmond Tutu: An archbishop who used his platform to speak out against apartheid in South Africa.
  • Marianne Williamson: A spiritual teacher and author who has run for political office and engages with political issues from a spiritual perspective.
• Balancing Faith and Politics: Spiritual leaders who engage in politics often face challenges in navigating the balance between their spiritual mission and political advocacy, aiming to remain grounded in their values while addressing societal issues.
• Influence on Communities and Policy: Spiritual leaders can influence political discourse and policy by shaping social values, mobilizing communities, and advocating for issues aligned with their spiritual beliefs. They can also serve as intermediaries between political authorities and marginalized groups.
• The Spiritual is Political: Some views highlight the inherent connection between the spiritual and political realms, emphasizing that actions motivated by spiritual values can naturally lead to involvement in efforts to improve society. 

Challenges and Considerations:

• Separation of Church and State: Concerns arise about religious leaders' political involvement potentially blurring the lines between religion and government.
• Criticism: Some argue that religious leaders who take strong political stances risk alienating members of their communities who hold different views.
• Tax Exempt Status: Organizations with tax-exempt status, which often includes religious institutions, face legal restrictions on direct political campaigning. 

In conclusion, while navigating the complexities of their roles, spiritual masters and leaders continue to play a significant role in politics, driven by their spiritual beliefs and a desire to contribute to a more just and compassionate society."  AI

 

• Marianne Williamson brings spirituality to politics

  Oct 13, 2015 — Marianne Williamson brings spirituality to politics — Harvard Gazette. ... For Marianne Williamson, politics is not only personal, it is spiritual. ... The Cali...

  

  Harvard Gazette
   
• SPIRITUAL LEADERS AND POLITICS: THE PERCEPTIONS ...

  Jun 17, 2019 — We seem to have forgotten that before time, spiritual leaders across the world have always been significant political figures. We seem to forget how King David ...

  Medium
   
• The Role of Religious Leaders in Political Advocacy

  Oct 31, 2024 — Many communities look to their spiritual leaders for guidance not just in matters of faith but also on social and political concerns. * A Historical Perspective...

  The Havok Journal

 

 

[Nungali]

 

Was Sean's directive ever about   eliminating politics  from spirituality and  not allowing its discussion on his site 

 

OR 

 

Was it about  not allowing a  specific touting of 'non - spiritual' ,  materialist based , anti environmental , right wing ,obviously negative  ( and should be self-evident  )  prejudicial,   bull shit 

 

?  

 

It seems a case of ;   the Captain has retired to his cabin and won't come out , he already pointed the direction . Now a bunch of 'mods', which changes and recycles through the 'ordinary sailors '  ( but not the mutinous ones  ....  some got a go for a while but, Cap came out and invited them to go overboard , then went back in the cabin ) who  together grasp the handle of that big sluggish rudder  and try to do their best to hold the ship on course , through all sorts of different conditions  and other sailors yelling  advice and abuse   .... and the  storms and reefs that assail it .  

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

... oh wait ! 

 

Are you still being 'post pre-approved by Mods'  'restriction ' ? 

 

If so I guess this  was carefully written to look at  the general subject  is spirituality and politics should be linked  and not directly about what we should do on the site about it .

 

If it was, and I broached that by the above comment ,  I can edit out . 

[stirling]

Some spiritual masters DO go to protests. Here is a picture of my late teacher Jana Drakka at a protest:

 

 

She isn't shouting, or giving money, or waving a flag, but I think her message is quite clear, and its effectiveness can be measured by the space she is creating, both mentally and physically right where she is, though its real effects are much larger and less visible.

 

It is the policy of the San Francisco Zen Center that NO monk living there can demonstrate at a protest EXCEPT by doing just as Jana is here.

[stirling]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

the 'ordinary sailors... who  together grasp the handle of that big sluggish rudder  and try to do their best to hold the ship on course , through all sorts of different conditions  and other sailors yelling  advice and abuse   .... and the  storms and reefs that assail it . 

 

Some of you may decide otherwise, but we are in fact STILL the same people who used to have more time to chat with you before we took on this thankless and unpaid job out of love for the board and your company. 

 

We were, and are, STILL your friends.

[BigSkyDiamond]

Divinity has no gender.  Gender is not a characteristic of Divinity.

Divinity has no politics.  Politics is not a characteristic of Divinity.

Divinity has no professional sports affiliation.  Teams are not a characteristic of Divinitiy.

Divinity has no conflict or polarization.  Conflict and polarization are not  characteristics of Divinity.

 

Peace be still.  Be still and know that.

[BigSkyDiamond]

If i get involved in something that is polarized, contentious, high drama, and has conflict

then  that is duality.  And i am not walking the talk of oneness, peace and non-duality.

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

response to Stirling ;   "  Some of you may decide otherwise, but we are in fact STILL the same people who used to have more time to chat with you before we took on this thankless and unpaid job out of love for the board and your company. 

 

We were, and are, STILL your friends "  

 

 

Indeed , but when one takes on a position of responsibility  .....    

 

By the way, don't misunderstand , I think we are still generally on the plotted course  though ... so well done !  

 

if I might offer ... and I have seen some here already doing it .   'Change hats ' ... I used to have to do it all the time in my 'administrative role'  in my 'fraternal group '  ;  signified by what form of greeting and signing off one uses .   When the mod hat is on and  directives need to be issued from ' a moderator' they type in red or some other  agreed color (and that is reserved for them ) and when posting as 'Good ol' Sterling  still your friend '/  'everydayobum '  (  did you like that one ? )   use the other colors .

Edited 1 hour ago by Nungali

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Divinity has no gender.  Gender is not a characteristic of Divinity.

Divinity has no politics.  Politics is not a characteristic of Divinity.

Divinity has no professional sports affiliation.  Teams are not a characteristic of Divinitiy.

Divinity has no conflict or polarization.  Conflict and polarization are not  characteristics of Divinity.

 

Peace be still.  Be still and know that.

 

True ... but we are  human  'down here'    and this site is not holy devoted to pure divinity as a subject . 

[stirling]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

if I might offer ... and I have seen some here already doing it .   'Change hats ' ... I used to have to do it all the time in my 'administrative role'  in my 'fraternal group '  ;  signified by what form of greeting and signing off one uses .   When the mod hat is on and  directives need to be issued from ' a moderator' they type in red or some other  agreed color (and that is reserved for them ) and when posting as 'Good ol' Sterling  still your friend '/  'everydayobum '  (  did you like that one ? )   use the other colors .

 

I shall take that under advisement, sir.

[BigSkyDiamond]

a related question for me is does the teacher walk the talk.  Looking at a teacher's actions and behavior in daily life.  If a teacher claims to help people with addiction, but chain smokes and drinks then their clients and students are going to question the  benefits and effectiveness that teacher can offer.  

 

"You can only take your clients as far as you have gone yourself" is an excellent benchmark for anyone in the healing arts.  An angry contentious  fighting argumentative hot-headed quick to explode persona simply can not effectively teach or model peaceful ways of interaction.

 

It is not about expecting anyone to be perfect, becasue teachers on a spiritual path are human and not perfect.  But if they fall off the path how do they handle it, or do they even recognize and acknowlege it, or do they justify defend and rationalize it.  Same for their students.  When a teacher has questionable behavior and it is called out, do the students tend to dismiss the concern, rationalize defend justify the behavior.  Or do they discuss ways to handle it moving forward, and how to prevent future instances from occurring within the community?  Is there an apology from the teacher or do they double down and refuse to change or even acknowledge.

 

I also feel that whatever is going on with the teacher is transmitted through the work, even if the work itself is solid.  For instance if someone teaches relaxation and healing techniques, but is habitually angry and fighting and name calling on line, then that anger and fighting is transmitted with whatever they are teaching about relaxation and healing.  I am facing that at the moment myself, i really like what the work a teacher offers, and have been using it for some time now, but i am growing increasingly uncomfortable with how they carry themself online.  It is tainting the work for me.  

 

Those for me are very much related to "spiritual masters" engaging in contentious angry fighting activity of any kind.  Activists see themselves as fighting as warriors as disruptive and use and incite violence.  Most spiritual traditions are not about promoting those values.  So again, do they walk the talk

 

Edited 1 hour ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

If i get involved in something that is polarized, contentious, high drama, and has conflict

then  that is duality.  And i am not walking the talk of oneness, peace and non-duality.

 

 

 

 

If I get involved in that yes it is duality and I am  thinking of the 'clash of swords'  /  'sparks of truth '   .... on the philosophical level .

 

On the physical level , I have said it enough here ... someone gotta be on the 'front line'  .... I have many times .   We get arrested and carted off and do it to stall and extend time  (if its done right  * ) .... that way the peaceful protesters at the back get 2 chances ... time to do their thing , and they get to home at the end of the day . 

 

 

*  my advice during Chaleundi protest ; " Hey everyone , don't all go   block the road together  and refuse to move and get a mass arrest ; all go out and block the road  and move when told to , except for one or two .   The  they will be arrested  and when they get ready to open it again, do the same  .  If it looks like  they are going to arrest everyone , don't go out together , go out  single or in small groups . 

 

That used up so much of their time it took all day , the road never fully opened , by morning tea time the next day , the matter had got to a court decision announced that morning  ... we won .   It was not violent and it was not non-action  or even reaction ... it was intelligent response to achieve the end desired. 

 

Ps.   our 'Buddhist'  protesters  were a group of old pensioners ,   that heard about this and decided to support us due to their outrage ...  those nice old ladies lined upo there looking like your grandma helped immensely   but 1.  showing wider community support - no we not a bunch of crackpots  and 2 . if they did to them what they did to us it would have been outrage  . 

So I am not saying there is not value in that approach  .   If one want the whole 'action' to be grandmas or passive Buddhists   .. or HIndus ... then you better have a massive amount of them   ...   Gandhi style  . 

[Nungali]

20 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I shall take that under advisement, sir.

 

You shall !  

 

  

[BigSkyDiamond]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

True ... but we are  human  'down here'    and this site is not holy devoted to pure divinity as a subject . 

 

but according to the other thread the very same voices are saying "they are God" 

"God is wearing this turban"  

 

Edited 1 hour ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

a related question for me is does the teacher walk the talk.  Looking at a teacher's actions and behavior in daily life.  If a teacher claims to help people with addiction, but chain smokes and drinks then their clients and students are going to question the  benefits and effectiveness that teacher can offer.  

 

Not if he helped me give up drinking and smoking  . 

 

 

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

"You can only take your clients as far as you have gone yourself" is an excellent benchmark for anyone in the healing arts.

 

It is not about expecting anyone to be perfect, becasue teachers on a spiritual path are human and not perfect.  But if they fall off the path how do they handle it, or do they even recognize and acknowlege it, or do they justify defend and rationalize it.  Same for their students.  When a teacher has questionable behavior and it is called out, do the students tend to dismiss the concern, rationalize defend justify the behavior.  Or do they discuss ways to handle it moving forward, and how to prevent future instances from occurring within the community?  Is there an apology from the teacher or do they double down and refuse to change or even acknowledge.

 

In my experience , most often with both parties  its a cover up , from any level of a 'spiritual teacher'  to 'community administrator's through to 'festival organizer'  .

 

The least popular  approach seems to be   " r do they discuss ways to handle it moving forward, and how to prevent future instances from occurring within the community? "   I mean many people don't even do that with their own behavior !   I live in a small community and they seem trapped in 'an endless world of cycles of the same old shit over and over again . 

 

Why ? 

 

because we assume people have a natural ability to do this ... but they don't !  Not all of them .

 

Sufis called it 'learning how to learn '   .... that results in effective change !  and the process is very similar to what you outline :  discuss ways to handle it moving forward, and how to prevent future instances from occurring within the community?

 

I prefer ; experiment , see what went right and wrong , assess , make relevant changes , try again ... continue . ( this requires memory or keeping a record as well )  Then hopefully instead of being trapped in the endless  merry - go - round of cycles ,  you have the chance of rising up in spiral and actually getting somewhere . 

 

4 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

I also feel that whatever is going on with the teacher is transmitted through the work, even if the work itself is solid.  For instance if someone teaches relaxation and healing techniques, but is habitually angry and fighting and name calling on line, then that anger and fighting is transmitted with whatever they are teaching about relaxation and healing.  I am facing that at the moment myself, i really like what the work a teacher offers, and have been using it for some time now, but i am growing increasingly uncomfortable with how they carry themself online.  It is tainting the work for me.  

 

Those for me are very much related to "spiritual masters" engaging in contentious angry fighting activity of any kind.  Activists see themselves as fighting as warriors as disruptive and use and incite violence.  Most spiritual traditions are not about promoting those values.  So again, do they walk the talk

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

but according to the other thread the very same voices are saying "they are God" 

"God is wearing this turban"  

 

 

 

I am glad you got a laugh ... even mistakenly . 

 

-  Just because something includes something does not mean it is only that thing  . Sometimes it seems you do not read my words accurately  and jump to all sorts of  conclusions . 

 

And I would thank you to also not do the same with Hallaj ..... he never said what you seem to be claiming in your   quotation marks . 

 

But hey ! If you think you scored some type of point there  ......   good fer you  !  

 

 

[Nungali]

14 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

but according to the other thread the very same voices are saying "they are God" 

"God is wearing this turban"  

 

 

 

and furthermore ... what 'very same voices'    where have I 'claimed to be God ' ...  ?    

 

You comment makes no sense which ever way I try to take it .  Maybe  it's some sort of  'catcall' ?   

 

( a shrill whistle or shout of disapproval made at a public meeting or performance. ) 

[Lairg]

The original question may be seen as a bottom-up view or as top-down

 

Thus the human perspective of what is a spiritual master may be quite narrow, based on dense observations and beliefs.

 

A top-down perspective might be quite different where those out of or beyond incarnation (within various species) may cause flows of emotional and mental energies and use higher intent to promote political outcomes that contribute to the development/purposes of the civilization and of this planet.

 

It seems that each culture comes to a time of bearing fruit, after which it declines and is replaced by the next development in humanity

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

55 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

True ... but we are  human  'down here'    and this site is not holy devoted to pure divinity as a subject . 

 

Yes that is true for this site.  But the topic is behavior of spiritual masters and that category indicates a high level of attainment in not only "learning" something but also in "putting it into practice" in their daily life.  They live it.  That is why in many traditions the students not only study the masters lessons, and listen to the master's lectures, and participate in the master's classes.  But also closely study how the master conducts himself in his own daily life.

 

In my own tradition i love the stories of students who would hide in the sage's closet or cupboards to observe the sage doing simple things in daily life. Not because they were voyeurs but because of wanting to study and emulate  that high level of mastery.

 

when someone says one thing, but does another; when the actions don't match the words; it is a red flag.  And spiritual masters are held to a higher bar, and rightly so.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Yes that is true for this site.  But the topic is behavior of spiritual masters and that category indicates a high level of attainment in not only "learning" something but also in "putting it into practice" in their daily life. 

 

Yes... but they are still 'down here ' .  

 

 

7 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

 

 

They live it.  That is why in many traditions the students not only study the masters lessons, and listen to the master's lectures, and participate in the master's classes.  But also closely study how the master conducts himself in his own daily life.

 

Yes, in some traditions they do  ... nosey !      

 

I am thinking of Genesis 9 : 20-27      

 

" Fer goodness sakes ... cant a guy sit alone and bother no one in his own tent and have a beer in his undies and then  take a nap ....  I mean I just planted a vineyard !  "

 

 

7 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

In my own tradition i love the stories of students who would hide in the sage's closet or cupboards to observe the sage doing simple things in daily life. Not because they were voyeurs but because of wanting to study and emulate  that high level of mastery.

 

when someone says one thing, but does another; when the actions don't match the words; it is a red flag.  And spiritual masters are held to a higher bar, and rightly so.

 

 

That's valid  ... my perspective was 'teacher' and his value  ;  from pupils  results achieved  not the private morals or veracity of the teacher . 

 

In some cases the teacher should present an archetype  for the student to emulate  or be inspired by ... both might not be able to live up to that 100% . 

 

However I firmly agree with you in the case of corrupt and fake teachers .  One can also tell (if one is aware enough ) from observing  the 'fakeness' of the students as well