Do people truly have free will?

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

You are working overtime here to appear an absolute idiot  !  

 

And to do that continually and deliberately to annoy people or cause disruption  is trolling the site .

 

And you have already said  you are doing this deliberately and being deliberately stupid .

 

Easy there, friend. Let's take deep breath.

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Easy there, friend. Let's take deep breath.

 

Innnnnnn  ..... hold ........ and ouuuuut . 

 

Now ..... did I say an untruth or anything he didn't  declare himself first . 

 

If you are happy to let that go on here , then its your choice what this site turns out like , if so I shall ignore him and watch Daobums further degrade , if that is what you want . 

 

so its up to you now 

Edited yesterday at 01:11 AM by Nungali

[Lairg]

What are requirements for free will?

 

- control of physical desires

- control of emotional desires

- control of thoughts

- control of heart energies

- .....

 

By age of 7 the child traditionally was held responsible for what it did.  

 

A couple of generations ago, by age of 21 the new adult was held responsible for its thoughts and allowed to vote.

 

As I recall Jung believed that by 42 it was possible to be ready for a mission in life

 

It seems that freedom of will takes much work

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:24 AM by Lairg

[stirling]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Innnnnnn  ..... hold ........ and ouuuuut . 

 

Now ..... did I say an untruth or anything he didn't  declare himself first . 

 

If you are happy to let that go on here , then its your choice what this site turns out like , if so I shall ignore him and watch Daobums further degrade , if that is what you want . 

 

so its up to you now 

 

It isn't possible for me to read every post here... you just got lucky.

 

 I'd rather we ALL kept it civil and left out the insults. If someone is insulting you, please let me know. 

[Sanity Check]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Well well ... run your flag up your pole and salute it  !  While you concentrate on being a citizen of the  Great America   that is OBVIOUSLY  MORAL   and  NEVER committed an atrocity   anywhere ... especially in its own country and against its own people  ! 

 

Never committed an atrocity against the   slaves and their descendants they took there , let alone the original inhabitants  . Never nuclear tested over the pristine Pacific  dislocating happy peaceful people ..... never sold weapons of mass death and maiming all over the world .... on an on it goes 

 

Meanwhile you do an idiot Homer Simpson dance with your fingers in your ears 

 

Its rather sickening ... no wonder Old Bob feels the way he does ! 

 

You are working overtime here to appear an absolute idiot  !  

 

And to do that continually and deliberately to annoy people or cause disruption  is trolling the site .

 

And you have already said  you are doing this deliberately and being deliberately stupid .

 

 

 

Do muslims want to live in a country founded upon islam ideology that observes sharia banking laws.

 

Or do they want to live in the united states a country founded on christian ideology and principles.

 

Do atheists want to live in norway, denmark or a nation founded on atheist ideology.

 

Or do they want to live in the USA, founded on christianity.

 

Forget about america's economy and military.

 

A case could be made for the USA being the fairest and most moral nation on earth.

 

Everyone wanting to live here, says so.

 

Tell me, kind sir. What is "stupid" or "trolling" about that.

[Paradoxal]

On 5/22/2025 at 9:19 AM, Sanity Check said:

Most of its history being that of a moral nation, it has achieved longevity and long life.

...wait, enslavement, rape, and genocide are moral to you? 

Literally even now, the prison system is using folks for forced labor, y'know.

 

And let's not forget eugenics originated in America, that we continue to suppress the native Americans whose land we stole, and that our "peacekeeping" is effectively imperialism.

 

I suppose we each have our "free will" as to what is morally right and wrong...

[Sanity Check]

9 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

...wait, enslavement, rape, and genocide are moral to you? 

Literally even now, the prison system is using folks for forced labor, y'know.

 

And let's not forget eugenics originated in America, that we continue to suppress the native Americans whose land we stole, and that our "peacekeeping" is effectively imperialism.

 

I suppose we each have our "free will" as to what is morally right and wrong...

 

 

Did you know that.

 

Every nation on earth practiced slavery during some eras of history?

 

How can you single out a nation for practicing slavery when all of them did.

 

Your perspective is critically flawed from day 1.

 

 

 

 

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, Sanity Check said:

Every nation on earth practiced slavery during some eras of history?

 

 

 

Many nations are new ones.  So it is quite a philosophical question whether new nations should be responsible for Karma of their previous location or to all wider states that ruled it.   e.g. Croatia, should it be responsible for slavery in Yugoslavia, Ottoman, Hungary and Roman Empire?    Should current day Japan and Germany be responsible for genocides when almost every living Japanese and Germans are born after 1945?  

 

If a new nation and a new human is bound by something that happens before the birth, so what is free will stands here?   People and nation are born with so much burdens, guilt, hostility....   They are not free from the start, not to mention free will.

 

 

[Sanity Check]

13 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Many nations are new ones.  So it is quite a philosophical question whether new nations should be responsible for Karma of their previous location or to all wider states that ruled it.   e.g. Croatia, should it be responsible for slavery in Yugoslavia, Ottoman, Hungary and Roman Empire?    Should current day Japan and Germany be responsible for genocides when almost every living Japanese and Germans are born after 1945?  

 

If a new nation and a new human is bound by something that happens before the birth, so what is free will stands here?   People and nation are born with so much burdens, guilt, hostility....   They are not free from the start, not to mention free will.

 

 

 

 

 

When narrators say "Genghis Khan was a ruthless warlord".

 

They forget leaders of Genghis Khan's era were ALL ruthless warlords.

 

There were no peaceful pacificsts in that world who survived for very long.

 

Its pointless to look at status quo, historical consensus trends as if they were unique and individualized smoking guns.

Edited 19 hours ago by Sanity Check

[Master Logray]

4 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

When narrators say "Genghis Khan was a ruthless warlord".

 

They forget leaders of Genghis Khan's era were ALL ruthless warlords.

 

There were no peaceful pacificsts in that world who survived for very long.

 

Its pointless to look at status quo, historical consensus trends as if they were unique and individualized smoking guns.

 

He was bad because they customarily massacred the whole cities.  Ruthless warlords were normally not so ruthless.

 

[Paradoxal]

7 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

Every nation on earth practiced slavery during some eras of history?

 

How can you single out a nation for practicing slavery when all of them did.

And yet, American slavery was worse than most others, due to it treating slaves as livestock. 

 

I'm glad that you recognize my other points as true, though! 🤣🤣

[Sherman Krebbs]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

Kurt Vonnegut  ( you will know him, of course ) studied story lines in depth  and  realized there were some main popular stories that have similar story line plots 

 

Hilarious.  I love Kaufka's chart, who incidentally used to be one of my favorite authors, although I can't read German and dislike the idea of being violently stabbed in the back by some overzealous, clandestined debt collectors.  My favorite short story of his is Before the Law, here.  Might have some connection to free will.  Like, quit thinking philosophically about everting and just walk through the f...ing door. 

 

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

yes, that's a good one !  However what if they had an elder brother who was good at sports and the family pressured one to do likewise . OR other even unseen or unconscious forces were at play 'driving' you to certain choices  ( which is why in psychology such forces are called 'drives' ). 

 

Things  might be a LOT more complicated than they seem on the surface

 

What arbitrator of good and bad choices is there other than pain avoided or pleasure obtained.  I eat the count chocula because of the ungodly pleasure it brings me, though I balance that with the condition of my teeth and its effects on my metabolism.  Usually the scales tip towards the later, and I just eat some ground up cardboard. If free will is anything, thats it.  Its the pain of not eating count chocula.  BUT (and this is where I get crazy), I believe there is a deeper balance to be obtained which has nothing to do with pain or pleasure, although count chocula still plays a major part in it.  

 

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

Oh, and where does God get his authority ?  Another God higher up   ?    

 

"GOD" is an acronym which stands for "GOD Over Djinn"

 

 

 

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

Do muslims want to live in a country founded upon islam ideology that observes sharia banking laws.

 

 

Out of the near 2 Billion Muslims in the world  about 4 and half Million live in USA ... so you work it out ! 

 

I also note how you avoid figures and statistics and use  'impossible language' ( how would I wow what Muslims like to do with their money ? )  to    try and support your prejudices . 

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Or do they want to live in the united states a country founded on christian ideology and principles.

 

Do you as a Christian want to live in a country founded on Islamic ideology and principles ? 

 

What makes you think Muslims are flocking to the USA ? I know   born and bread Americans that are wanting to flee it right now ! 

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Do atheists want to live in norway, denmark or a nation founded on atheist ideology.

 

Or do they want to live in the USA, founded on christianity.

 

 

Did you think these questions would demonstrate some point or something ? You  appear to be rambling ... or maybe ranting - hard to tell from here .

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Forget about america's economy and military.

 

A case could be made for the USA being the fairest and most moral nation on earth.

 

That HAS TO BE  delusional .  But I do know there are masses ... swarms... of people in your country that believes that . 

 

here are some other people that believe that  about their  country even more  than you do

 

 

I regret to inform you that you too have been successfully brainwashed . 

 

And I expect you will be as open to hearing that as the average North Korean citizen would be . 

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Everyone wanting to live here, says so.

 

If you have not noticed, the place has become so messed up many people want to leave ! 

 

 

They pulled the wool over your eyes ... USA is NOT doing good financially 

 

Debt is simply the total amount of money the US government owes to its lenders, currently amounting to $36.2 trillion. This represents 122 percent of the country's annual economic output or gross domestic product (GDP), and it is growing by about $1 trillion every three months.

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Tell me, kind sir. What is "stupid" or "trolling" about that.

 

 

All of it , it was inaccurate , uneducated, wrong , no support  references or citation, illogical and  a set of whimsical  ideas invented by you to back up your own prejudices and the brainwashing the state has done on you 

 

And all this in a discussion about 'Do people really have free will '   !  Well, thanks for the demonstration !  

 

When the truth  is revealed ..... even onlookers get upset   

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Did you know that.

 

Every nation on earth practiced slavery during some eras of history?

 

How can you single out a nation for practicing slavery when all of them did.

 

Your perspective is critically flawed from day 1.

 

 

 

 

 

Yet you did exactly that yourself ! 

 

Why did you single out Soviet and  Nazi  and US    all of them commit atrocities ... some worse than others in some areas , some less . 

 

EG. the amount of people that were taken into concentration camps and died there by Nazis is a lot more than  those that  suffered torture  and still do , at Guantanamo bay  ( but now you will say that it is not America ... its a country US invaded annexed part of and uses for its crimes against humanity and they do that there  so they can say we don't do it in America . 

 

And US gets the price for more people killed and devastation with a single bomb drop .   I could go on and with citation proof and evidence - which YOU don't use   but ...

 

This is all nasty and horrible , I would not be saying it if you did not make the BS claims you are .  I know some don't like it ..... like Coby , but sorry , I am going to speak up here . 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Many nations are new ones.  So it is quite a philosophical question whether new nations should be responsible for Karma of their previous location or to all wider states that ruled it.   e.g. Croatia, should it be responsible for slavery in Yugoslavia, Ottoman, Hungary and Roman Empire?    Should current day Japan and Germany be responsible for genocides when almost every living Japanese and Germans are born after 1945?  

 

If a new nation and a new human is bound by something that happens before the birth, so what is free will stands here?   People and nation are born with so much burdens, guilt, hostility....   They are not free from the start, not to mention free will.

 

 

 

I think the guy is just posting BS  to annoy people or start arguments . 

 

Australia  NEVER had  slavery  before  Euros got her .   

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

When narrators say "Genghis Khan was a ruthless warlord".

 

They forget leaders of Genghis Khan's era were ALL ruthless warlords.

 

There were no peaceful pacificsts in that world who survived for very long.

 

Its pointless to look at status quo, historical consensus trends as if they were unique and individualized smoking guns.

 

 

Please try to educate yourself ; 

 

 

This place emerged in the 17 the C  !  

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

He was bad because they customarily massacred the whole cities.  Ruthless warlords were normally not so ruthless.

 

 

He isn't considered 'Bad' in Mongolia ! 

 

Was Lord Nelson bad ?   Was  Francis Drake bad ?   How about Magellan ? 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

Hilarious.  I love Kaufka's chart, who incidentally used to be one of my favorite authors, although I can't read German and dislike the idea of being violently stabbed in the back by some overzealous, clandestined debt collectors.

 

Reading Kafka  and his plot lines are like jumping off a cliff  !   

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

  My favorite short story of his is Before the Law, here.  Might have some connection to free will.  Like, quit thinking philosophically about everting and just walk through the f...ing door. 

 

 

What arbitrator of good and bad choices is there other than pain avoided or pleasure obtained. 

 

Great question and it deserves another thread or private converse   ... this is not the media apparently for such a deep and important discussion  (any more ) .

 

briefly I would say it involves interaction with the ' True Will ' and making conscious decisions  that help you move towards that expression and though hard work perseverance  good fortune and luck come to an underatdning of you psyche and how it works , and also your 'personna'   ( the 'you'   you became from interaction with your specific environment and 'externals' , including an insight into your psychology conditioning and drives  AND a way of regulating and controlling that towards your true aim and purpose that you incarnated for  ... in short , by practicing Magick   ,

 

 

7 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

 

 

I eat the count chocula because of the ungodly pleasure it brings me, though I balance that with the condition of my teeth and its effects on my metabolism.  Usually the scales tip towards the later, and I just eat some ground up cardboard. If free will is anything, thats it.  Its the pain of not eating count chocula.

 

 

Dude ... that is brilliant !  

 

Its going on a t-shirt ! 

 

                '  If free will is anything - 

 it's the pain of not eating Count Chocula. ' 

 

or it could be  you new signature . 

 

 

7 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

  BUT (and this is where I get crazy), I believe there is a deeper balance to be obtained which has nothing to do with pain or pleasure, although count chocula still plays a major part in it.  

 

Not crazy  ... see comment  above about true will and magick . 

 

 

7 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

 

"GOD" is an acronym which stands for "GOD Over Djinn"

 

 

 

 

Not sure about that 'unsafe site' long time loading so I aborted it  ... but 

 

also 'God' is an anachronism  that tries to stand over us     

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Did you know that.

 

Every nation on earth practiced slavery during some eras of history?

 

How can you single out a nation for practicing slavery when all of them did.

 

Your perspective is critically flawed from day 1.

 

 

 

 

 

You set up America as being different uncorrupted and better   then others , yet when slavery history is pointed out  you 

"OH well everyone else did it ." 

 

Fail ! 

[Sanity Check]

9 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

And yet, American slavery was worse than most others, due to it treating slaves as livestock. 

 

I'm glad that you recognize my other points as true, though! 🤣🤣

 

 

They were treated the same way by british, french & other nations.

 

Who acted as middlemen.

 

But according to you only america is guilty.

 

France and britain are "innocent".

 

 

[Ascetic]

On 5/21/2025 at 2:30 PM, Cobie said:

 

 Are you the founder and only member of this faith? Is it connected with 天命 (tian1 ming4) Mandate of Heaven?

 

 

It appears to be the consolidation of my understanding of the Mandate of Heaven. I seem to see Heaven in my own way.

Founder sounds too grandiose. But maybe I should see myself that way.

Edited 4 hours ago by Ascetic

[Sanity Check]

50 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

You set up America as being different uncorrupted and better   then others , yet when slavery history is pointed out  you 

"OH well everyone else did it ." 

 

Fail ! 

 

 

 

American slavery is the same as foxconn worker concentration camps in china.

 

You unfairly try to blame average and ordinary christians for it when in reality it was the work of rich and wealthy ruling elites.

 

 

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Out of the near 2 Billion Muslims in the world  about 4 and half Million live in USA ... so you work it out ! 

 

I also note how you avoid figures and statistics and use  'impossible language' ( how would I wow what Muslims like to do with their money ? )  to    try and support your prejudices . 

 

 

Do you as a Christian want to live in a country founded on Islamic ideology and principles ? 

 

What makes you think Muslims are flocking to the USA ? I know   born and bread Americans that are wanting to flee it right now ! 

 

 

 

Did you think these questions would demonstrate some point or something ? You  appear to be rambling ... or maybe ranting - hard to tell from here .

 

 

That HAS TO BE  delusional .  But I do know there are masses ... swarms... of people in your country that believes that . 

 

here are some other people that believe that  about their  country even more  than you do

 

 

I regret to inform you that you too have been successfully brainwashed . 

 

And I expect you will be as open to hearing that as the average North Korean citizen would be . 

 

 

If you have not noticed, the place has become so messed up many people want to leave ! 

 

 

They pulled the wool over your eyes ... USA is NOT doing good financially 

 

Debt is simply the total amount of money the US government owes to its lenders, currently amounting to $36.2 trillion. This represents 122 percent of the country's annual economic output or gross domestic product (GDP), and it is growing by about $1 trillion every three months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All of it , it was inaccurate , uneducated, wrong , no support  references or citation, illogical and  a set of whimsical  ideas invented by you to back up your own prejudices and the brainwashing the state has done on you 

 

And all this in a discussion about 'Do people really have free will '   !  Well, thanks for the demonstration !  

 

When the truth  is revealed ..... even onlookers get upset   

 

 

I won't bother reading or replying to wall of text responses.

 

People who can't make a point within 1 or 2 sentences.

 

Usually don't have a point.

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Yet you did exactly that yourself ! 

 

Why did you single out Soviet and  Nazi  and US    all of them commit atrocities ... some worse than others in some areas , some less . 

 

EG. the amount of people that were taken into concentration camps and died there by Nazis is a lot more than  those that  suffered torture  and still do , at Guantanamo bay  ( but now you will say that it is not America ... its a country US invaded annexed part of and uses for its crimes against humanity and they do that there  so they can say we don't do it in America . 

 

And US gets the price for more people killed and devastation with a single bomb drop .   I could go on and with citation proof and evidence - which YOU don't use   but ...

 

This is all nasty and horrible , I would not be saying it if you did not make the BS claims you are .  I know some don't like it ..... like Coby , but sorry , I am going to speak up here . 

 

 

Given your extensive study of the bible.

 

You should already know sin and the shortening of lifespans is christian ideology.

 

If you know of atrocities committed in nazi concentration camps would you then go on to say that waterboarding in guantanamo bay is exactly the same thing? Cuz it seems that's the direction you're headed.

Edited 4 hours ago by Sanity Check

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Please try to educate yourself ; 

 

 

This place emerged in the 17 the C  !  

 

 

All warlords and leaders of that era were ruthless.

 

Genghis Khan only gets a mention for being smarter and more successful of a ruthless than his ruthless peers.

 

If every warlord of an era is ruthless it becomes redundant to explicitly point it out.

 

And if every major nation on earth practices slavery in an era, it also becomes redundant to point it out.

 

Even worse to pretend that only one nation was guilty.

 

This should be basic science. But somehow. Its not.

 

This is why I say people have no use for facts or science.

 

They throw both out the nearest window as if it has no value.

Edited 4 hours ago by Sanity Check