Help on the spiritual path

[Maddie]

32 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's not interpretation of the Pali, it isn't covered in the lines you quoted. Buddha's view was not complete. What he said isn't wrong, it's just not complete.

The abhidhamma does try to include this though, if I recall correctly ( again authorship of the abhidhamma is contested ).

 

But to see it historically, Schopenhauer read the Buddha, in turn Freud read lots of Schopenhauer, which affected his thinking a lot. This on its own is proof that the Buddha's teachings are very deep, he's a spiritual ancestor of the founder of psychoanalysis in that sense.

 

This doesn't mean though that his teachings give as complete a picture as what we have today, a lot has been discovered since Freud's times and even more so since the Buddha's times.

Like any piece of knowledge it's also evolving, in 10 years we'll know more than what we know today.

 

I will ponder this. I've spent a lot of time in Theravada land and I'm sure you know how they view the teachings of the Buddha there.

[snowymountains]

22 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I will ponder this. I've spent a lot of time in Theravada land and I'm sure you know how they view the teachings of the Buddha there.

 

They're great folks and they offer great teachings but there's no "final" truth on anything other than apples fall downward and after 2400 years it's natural for cracks in theories to appear.

 

Is 4 elements or the periodic table the most accurate view of matter?

Under the same conditions will the outcome always be the same? Etc

 

Imo they're great spiritual teachers, no mysticism, no cults, detailed instructions, happy folks, high quality textual sources and commentary. Isn't that enough 🙂? What more can one ask for 🙂?

Imo Theravada and Zen are the best "crowds".

This doesn't mean to take every single statement as an absolute truth though.

 

 

Edited February 9 by snowymountains

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Is 4 elements or the periodic table the most accurate view of matter?

Under the same conditions will the outcome always be the same? Etc

 

I've always assumed (and maybe this is just me) that the "elements" back in the classical times were not seen in the same way as they are today in light of atomic theory. I have always seen them rather as states of matter, meaning solid (earth) liquid (water) gas (air) energy (fire) and not viewed in the same 21th century lenses that we see matter through today. 

[snowymountains]

28 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I've always assumed (and maybe this is just me) that the "elements" back in the classical times were not seen in the same way as they are today in light of atomic theory. I have always seen them rather as states of matter, meaning solid (earth) liquid (water) gas (air) energy (fire) and not viewed in the same 21th century lenses that we see matter through today. 

 

Even when seen as states of matter it's an incomplete list. Not wrong but incomplete.

[Maddie]

17 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Even when seen as states of matter it's an incomplete list. Not wrong but incomplete.

 

What do you feel is missing?

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

What do you feel is missing?

 

What he couldn't had known at the time. He used the best model available at the time, which 2400 years later is known to be incomplete 

 

Wiki

Eg

Distinct phases may be described as different states of matter such as gas, liquid, solid, plasma or Bose–Einstein condensate

[Apech]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

What he couldn't had known at the time. He used the best model available at the time, which 2400 years later is known to be incomplete 

 

Wiki

Eg

Distinct phases may be described as different states of matter such as gas, liquid, solid, plasma or Bose–Einstein condensate

The Buddha was not presenting an ontological solution so all this is irrelevant.

[Cobie]

23 hours ago, snowymountains said:

... this article on WebMD, which is not a reference source …

“Thus, meditation and mindfulness may improve PTSD symptoms by affecting neural circuitry implicated in attentional control and threat perception. Growing evidence also suggests that these approaches may affect autonomic nervous system activity.”
https://www.ptsd.va.gov/publications/rq_docs/V28N2.pdf 

“Meditation and Yoga for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: A Meta-Analytic Review of Randomized Controlled Trials. … The findings here suggest efforts to move toward integrative approaches that leverage mind-body interventions for the management of PTSD warrant further study.” 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5939561/   
 

 

Edited February 9 by Cobie

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

What he couldn't had known at the time. He used the best model available at the time, which 2400 years later is known to be incomplete 

 

Wiki

Eg

Distinct phases may be described as different states of matter such as gas, liquid, solid, plasma or Bose–Einstein condensate

 

Can you specify what it is that you find to be incomplete though and why?

[snowymountains]

40 minutes ago, Apech said:

The Buddha was not presenting an ontological solution so all this is irrelevant.

 

It's not, these are the elements or phases he sought to attribute all matter to. The list is not complete.

 

He didn't make the list, it was the best list at the time, so he used that one.

[Apech]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's not, these are the elements or phases he sought to attribute all matter to. The list is not complete.

 

He didn't make the list, it was the best list at the time, so he used that one.

yes but it is irrelevant to his teachings whether it is complete or not 

[snowymountains]

36 minutes ago, Cobie said:

“Thus, meditation and mindfulness may improve PTSD symptoms by affecting neural circuitry implicated in attentional control and threat perception. Growing evidence also suggests that these approaches may affect autonomic nervous system activity.”
https://www.ptsd.va.gov/publications/rq_docs/V28N2.pdf 

“Meditation and Yoga for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: A Meta-Analytic Review of Randomized Controlled Trials. … The findings here suggest efforts to move toward integrative approaches that leverage mind-body interventions for the management of PTSD warrant further study.” 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5939561/   
 

 

 

In some PTSD cases raising dopamine is just a bad idea. This doesn't mean it's all PTSD cases.

If you want to believe it's A-OK in all PTSD cases, this is fine by me.

 

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

yes but it is irrelevant to his teachings whether it is complete or not 

 

We were  discussing emotions not necessarily being linked to clinging, and that is relevant to the teachings though.

 

The 4 elements part was to demonstrate that the Buddha didn't always have a complete picture in other topics as well.

[Maddie]

Just now, snowymountains said:

 

We were  discussing emotions not necessarily being linked to clinging, and that is relevant to the teachings though.

 

The 4 elements part was to demonstrate that the Buddha didn't always have a complete picture in other topics as well.

 

See this is why to me this is so complicated. On one hand to me emotions totally seem related to clinging as in clinging to various Sankharas.

 

On the other hand I agree that not everything that the Buddha said is factually accurate and the reason this is relevant is that in the tradition he was basically made to seem like he knew everything. If he did not know as much as it is claimed he did in the Suttas then it makes one wonder what else might be wrong. 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's not, these are the elements or phases he sought to attribute all matter to. The list is not complete.

 

He didn't make the list, it was the best list at the time, so he used that one.

 

I am finding your posts confusing  here , the answers seem obscure .  Perhaps its because you have a misunderstanding .

 

The way I see it is the elements where  used to classify  types of substances , just as modern 'states of matter ' are . You appear to be mixing up areas of classification with the  individual things that fit into those areas .

 

Eg , the sea , rain, our emotions  would all come under water .

 

where as in the modern form ,  some elements in the periodic table are liquid in natural form

 

so in a way the elements and the states of matter are all inclusive containing the things  in each set  , not as a replacement for them  or as the things themselves .

 

Your  idea might be better explained with statements like '  the modern 'states of matter ' are  more inclusive than the old classification of elements   ( except I dont think they are     )

[Apech]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

We were  discussing emotions not necessarily being linked to clinging, and that is relevant to the teachings though.

 

The 4 elements part was to demonstrate that the Buddha didn't always have a complete picture in other topics as well.

 

 

Emotions are linked by the identification of self with compounded phenomena.  This is clinging.

 

The Buddha did not propose an ontological analysis of the nature of the world but just worked with the current interpretations of his day.  Hence Mount Meru and so forth.  It makes no difference whatsoever if these descriptors of the world are true or not.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

See this is why to me this is so complicated. On one hand to me emotions totally seem related to clinging as in clinging to various Sankharas.

 

On the other hand I agree that not everything that the Buddha said is factually accurate and the reason this is relevant is that in the tradition he was basically made to seem like he knew everything. If he did not know as much as it is claimed he did in the Suttas then it makes one wonder what else might be wrong. 

 

The Buddha used whatever beliefs were current in order to teach dharma.  Clinging to the aggregates is valid.  Also there are some things which are true in a relative sense but not in an absolute sense - so yes he might have said things which we know to be factually inaccurate today but it makes no difference to the dharma.

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

See this is why to me this is so complicated. On one hand to me emotions totally seem related to clinging as in clinging to various Sankharas.

 

On the other hand I agree that not everything that the Buddha said is factually accurate and the reason this is relevant is that in the tradition he was basically made to seem like he knew everything. If he did not know as much as it is claimed he did in the Suttas then it makes one wonder what else might be wrong. 
 

Or as Arlo Guthrie sang, "if you didn't know about that one, well, then what else don't you know" (Presidential Rag).

There's at least one sermon where Gautama disparages women.  He claimed "stroking the sun and moon with the hand" as one of six miracles.

A. K. Warder says that the first schism came about because the various orders couldn't agree on one of six points.  They agreed on five out of six--for example, that Gautama's omniscience was limited to matters of the dharma, he was not omniscient about everything--that was one of the points of contention.

The point they couldn't agree on was whether or not an arhant could be seduced by a succubus in his sleep.  In other words, whether an enlightened man could have a wet dream.  

I sometimes ponder how that got worked around into how the "great path" was superior because the mahayanists were willing to suffer along with everyone else until everybody was enlightened.   You know, have wet dreams, and such.

And it's true, that in Gautama's teaching, only the arhants really cut off sensual desire and the other hindrances at the root.  Everybody else had to keep working at it, because the hindrances would continue to grow--no spiritual Round-up.

 

I personally owe Gautama an overwhelming debt, for his teachings about concentration and about his way of living, the mindfulness that constituted his way of living "most of the time, especially in the rainy season".  I don't really find the past lives/future lives and the social and moral prescriptions, the four elements and all, that useful.  The Bodhisattva vow is actually more useful to me, I'll have to give the Mahayanists credit on that.

Oh, and on that transmission of the teaching to Kasayapa, the story of Gautama holding up a flower and Kasayapa wordlessly receiving the teaching.  That story is cited to justify transmission outside of scripture in the Zen tradition.  Well, there was a mandarava flower given to Kasayapa by a wondering ascetic, who informed Kasayapa that Gautama had died (the mandarava trees had started blooming out of season).  Kasayapa proceeded to the town where Gautama lay on the funeral pyre, and I guess he must have collected Gautama's robe and bowl at that time.  That story is in the paranibbana sutta--wordless transmission, indeed!

 

 

Edited February 9 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Emotions are linked by the identification of self with compounded phenomena.  This is clinging.

 

The Buddha did not propose an ontological analysis of the nature of the world but just worked with the current interpretations of his day.  Hence Mount Meru and so forth.  It makes no difference whatsoever if these descriptors of the world are true or not.

 

 

But,   but .... what if your Copernicum 112  is out of balance  ? 

[Maddie]

I just thought of another way to explain why some emotions are clinging, or more specifically the example of emotional problems that we were speaking of earlier such as ptsd.

   PTSD is a reaction of the mind to stimulus the triggers past traumas that haven't been resolved. The fact that they are still in the mind causing problems as opposed to the experience coming and going like other events in life shows that by definition the mind is clinging or holding on to them or otherwise they wouldn't still be there. 

   This is why in meditation the goal is to "let go". But again by definition we can't let go of something that we are not clinging to or holding.

   

[snowymountains]

14 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Can you specify what it is that you find to be incomplete though and why?

 

What is incomplete is that there are more phases of matter than those 4. When only part of a picture is shown it's a partial picture, which is fine but we should not consider it a complete picture.

[snowymountains]

12 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Emotions are linked by the identification of self with compounded phenomena.  This is clinging.

 

The Buddha did not propose an ontological analysis of the nature of the world but just worked with the current interpretations of his day.  Hence Mount Meru and so forth.  It makes no difference whatsoever if these descriptors of the world are true or not.

 

It's not only that though wrt emotions and hence the incomplete picture.

He did work with the mental models of his day and therefore was also affected by limitations of these models.

Like the work we do today will be limited by the models we do today and in year 2100 these limitations will be glaringly obvious.

 

This is not a criticism of the Buddha, after all what was he suppose to do, use models of 2024..

 

It's rather an acknowledgement that the Pali is not the final word on a lot of topics, including emotions. Though it's a very deep and very interesting work, it's not the complete picture, today we just know far more on some topics.

Edited February 10 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

50 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I just thought of another way to explain why some emotions are clinging, or more specifically the example of emotional problems that we were speaking of earlier such as ptsd.

   PTSD is a reaction of the mind to stimulus the triggers past traumas that haven't been resolved. The fact that they are still in the mind causing problems as opposed to the experience coming and going like other events in life shows that by definition the mind is clinging or holding on to them or otherwise they wouldn't still be there. 

   This is why in meditation the goal is to "let go". But again by definition we can't let go of something that we are not clinging to or holding.

   

 

I would decouple this specific subtopic from PTSD, because it's not needed, existence of automatic reactions is the only assumption.

Every single person has automatic reactions, I have, you have, the US president has, the Buddha had automatic reactions too.

One can of course "reprogram" their automatic reactions through e.g. therapy, but there still exist (new) automatic reactions. We cannot get rid of automatic reactions and there's no need to.

They still imply an emotion may be surfacing due to a trigger and that's not necessarily a bad thing nor is it clinging but it does mean that clinging is not the only source of emotions.

 

Letting go is about control, it has nothing to do with automatic reactions. Also, while some automatic reactions can be observed in a meditative state through insight meditation, some cannot.

 

The Buddha was a great philosopher and a great spiritual person, it's no accident that his teachings survived to this very day and are still relevant.

This doesn't mean that they present a complete picture on the topics he addresses, he couldn't have done so in 400BC, not even today do we have a complete picture, we do have a much better picture than 400BC though.

It's just evolution of knowledge and understanding as it happens through the ages.

The Buddha made sure to leverage all the available knowledge of his era, he didn't cap knowledge to 2400 years before him and we should do the same.

Edited February 10 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

11 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I personally owe Gautama an overwhelming debt, for his teachings about concentration and about his way of living, the mindfulness that constituted his way of living "most of the time, especially in the rainy season".  I don't really find the past lives/future lives and the social and moral prescriptions, the four elements and all, that useful.  The Bodhisattva vow is actually more useful to me, I'll have to give the Mahayanists credit on that.

 

Exactly, I see these things as a best effort, ground breaking work which however is still bound by the era they were written in.

After all if Einstein made mistakes here and there, which were uncovered in later years, why would the Buddha not have made mistakes.

 

This detracts nothing from the value of the Dharma and Buddhism in general.

We should still not treat his teachings in isolation from what we've learnt in the 2400 years after his death and he couldn't had possibly been aware of.

 

He said it himself, we should verify his teachings before adopting them, I'm certain if he lived today, he'd use the knowledge available today, why wouldn't he..

Edited February 10 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

14 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

See this is why to me this is so complicated. On one hand to me emotions totally seem related to clinging as in clinging to various Sankharas.

 

On the other hand I agree that not everything that the Buddha said is factually accurate and the reason this is relevant is that in the tradition he was basically made to seem like he knew everything. If he did not know as much as it is claimed he did in the Suttas then it makes one wonder what else might be wrong. 

 

My view is that his advice on aggregate was a good advice, he's often portrayed as a good friend after all that shows a way.

 

That said, of course, we cannot to consider the Pali Canon as the single source of truth for everything, we test it, we compare it to what was discovered later. We keep the parts that we're convinced are valid & still relevant and take with a grain of salt those parts that have been superseded by more recent knowledge.

After all, wouldn't the Buddha himself had done the same thing with teachings made 2400 years before his era?