NaturaNaturans Posted January 10 So, the bible consits of OT (jewish torah), NT about Jesus (gospels, letters and more). Giving the impression that the torah is sacred to christians as well, as i dont think many christians belive. Garden of Eden and the old laws might be neccesary for context, but… other then that, is the OT really important for Christians? Ive never met one who started qouted some Isiah passage in order to make a argument on christianity… My very uneducated opinion is that our beloved palestinian fellow for whom we feast every solstice, had huge problems with judaism and the synagoge. Further more, his teachings contradicts judaism enterily. A Christian is defined as «follower of christ,» and thats it. So, as i see it, If you recognize Christ as peak human/divinity, the holy trinity and try to live more like him, you are (imo) a Christian ✝️ A jew is… i am not really sure, but primarily an etnic group, who belived they were chosen by the tribal God Yahwe to conquer the holy land all the while talking about the horrible infidels (witch is 8 billion - 20mill ≈ 8 billion). It is also extremly «law-based» and.. yeah. So, why is the torah/OT in the bible? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 10 From ChatGPT: Marcion of Sinope, a key figure in early Christianity, held unique beliefs about the Demiurge, distinct from traditional Christian doctrine. In Marcion's theology, the Demiurge was seen as the god of the Old Testament, a creator god who was distinct and inferior to the Supreme God of the New Testament. Marcion believed that the Demiurge was a lesser deity who had created the material world and was responsible for the Law of Moses, but was ignorant of the Supreme God, who was represented in the teachings of Jesus. This led Marcion to reject the Old Testament entirely and to focus exclusively on the teachings of Jesus and Paul, which he saw as revealing the true, benevolent God. His views were declared heretical by mainstream Christianity, but they had a significant impact on the development of early Christian thought and the formation of the New Testament canon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oak Posted January 10 (edited) The NT cannot be understood without the OT. Pretty much everything that happens in the NT happened in the OT or was propheticized in it, you always need to go back for reference and have the correct understanding of the event. As an example when Jesus went to the desert for forty days to fast was symbolically mimicking the process that the Hebrews went through for 40 years in the desert. Also, Jesus was constantly quoting the OT. Edited January 10 by oak 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 10 2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said: From ChatGPT: Marcion of Sinope, a key figure in early Christianity, held unique beliefs about the Demiurge, distinct from traditional Christian doctrine. In Marcion's theology, the Demiurge was seen as the god of the Old Testament, a creator god who was distinct and inferior to the Supreme God of the New Testament. Marcion believed that the Demiurge was a lesser deity who had created the material world and was responsible for the Law of Moses, but was ignorant of the Supreme God, who was represented in the teachings of Jesus. This led Marcion to reject the Old Testament entirely and to focus exclusively on the teachings of Jesus and Paul, which he saw as revealing the true, benevolent God. His views were declared heretical by mainstream Christianity, but they had a significant impact on the development of early Christian thought and the formation of the New Testament canon. Lets face it , to many modern people the OT is a primitive horror story . That was noticed in the past as well and caused some rather radical developments , as exampled above . Some groups even thought the OT was so bad Jehovah must be Satan . ... so that means .... maybe one should do the opposite of what it says ; Do NOT worship Jehovah , do see the Egyptians as heroes and the good guys , DO practice sodomy and enjoy some Gomorrah , etc . As a little guy, I never saw a Bible at the Catholic School ... well, only from a distance . We learnt from 'The Catholic Catechism' and a book with select Jesus tales for kiddies extracted from the NT with an occasional 'nice' OT story thrown in . They left out the ones where ' Good men' gave their wives and daughters to mobs of rapists and the instructions on how to feed the 'big space vampire' with fresh blood within the temple 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, Nungali said: Lets face it , to many modern people the OT is a primitive horror story . That was noticed in the past as well and caused some rather radical developments , as exampled above . Some groups even thought the OT was so bad Jehovah must be Satan . ... so that means .... maybe one should do the opposite of what it says ; Do NOT worship Jehovah , do see the Egyptians as heroes and the good guys , DO practice sodomy and enjoy some Gomorrah , etc . But honestly, If you think about god in a platonic way and not a tribal god, it makes perfect sense, does it not? Like, Yahwe is clearly as tribal as Pan, Baal and Malluck, or whoever the leventine cananite (! Sorry @Daniel, forgot that they are two very distinct cultures), sacrificed their babies to? While NT God seems pretty platonic: Quote To Plato, God is transcendent-the highest and most perfect being-and one who uses eternal forms, or archetypes, to fashion a universe that is eternal and uncreated. The order and purpose he gives the universe is limited by the imperfections inherent in material. https://iep.utm.edu/god-west/#SH2b And this again would make Yahwe… the demiurge 😱 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 11 7 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said: A jew is… i am not really sure, A jew is a soul which was present at sinai and has entered the eternal convenant: "Na'asheh v'nishmah" "I will do and I will listen" - Exodus 24:7. Our beliefs were summarized by Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon, the "Rambam" in 13 principles which was set to song. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigdal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 11 10 hours ago, Daniel said: A jew is a soul which was present at sinai and has entered the eternal convenant: "Na'asheh v'nishmah" "I will do and I will listen" - Exodus 24:7. Our beliefs were summarized by Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon, the "Rambam" in 13 principles which was set to song. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigdal Thank you for the video. how do you feel about academica at lagre disputing the exodus, as there has been found zero evidence of it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SirPalomides Posted January 11 Note that in a prior thread Daniel tried to cast Rambam as a heretic whose Greek influences put him outside the pale of Judaism. You can actually see some of this influence in lines 1-5 of the Yigdal. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 12 (edited) Quote how do you feel about academica at lagre disputing the exodus, as there has been found zero evidence of it? In general, the entire tanach from beginning to end is about miracles. Miracles don't have "evidence". A lack of archeological evidence of 600,000 people marching through the desert, is part of the story. Zero evidence is a little harsh though. That is an exaggeration I often hear from youtubers. There is evidence, but not of an exodus as it is literally described. See link below from Rutgers University in New Jersey, USA. Links about the authors are below. Both are credentialled academics with strong backgrounds in their fields. Since you are not american, I also included links and info on Rutgers University. It is not a religious institution. It has a very good reputation for academics. https://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/docman/rendsburg/876-ch-2-text-notes <--- PDF Download Authors of the PDF: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Bietak <---- please note their career in the field https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_A._Rendsburg https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rutgers-new-brunswick-6964 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutgers_University The university offers more than 100 distinct bachelor, 100 masters, and 80 doctoral and professional degree programs across 175 academic departments, 29 degree-granting schools, and colleges, 16 of which offer graduate programs of study. It is accredited by the Commission on Higher Education of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools (1921), and in 1989, became a member of the Association of American Universities, an organization of the 62 leading research universities in North America. Rutgers–New Brunswick is classified among "R1: Doctoral Universities – Very high research activity". Rutgers–Newark and Rutgers–Camden are classified by the same organization as "R2: Doctoral Universities – High research activity". Edited January 12 by Daniel 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 12 3 hours ago, Daniel said: In general, the entire tanach from beginning to end is about miracles. Miracles don't have "evidence". A miracle, by definition, does not even exist , unless there is some type of evidence for it .... More 'Danialisms ' . 3 hours ago, Daniel said: A lack of archeological evidence of 600,000 people marching through the desert, is part of the story. Not until now ..... apparently . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apotheose Posted January 15 On 10/01/2024 at 5:45 PM, Nungali said: Lets face it , to many modern people the OT is a primitive horror story . That was noticed in the past as well and caused some rather radical developments , as exampled above . Some groups even thought the OT was so bad Jehovah must be Satan . It’s the law of cause and effect! People in that era were hugely primitive and brutal. Therefore, they awaken God’s Ire; God’s Wrath; God’s Rage… They were in almost absolute God’s absense, since they did not truly Love. By “God’s absense”, I do not mean that Jehovah did not exist, but that they acted as if He did not exist. Their life were purely based on the pleasures of the flesh, on the oscilations of life’s contingencies, on the most Egoic feelings and actions, on everything but Jehovah’s Truth… So, in Christ people were broadly introducted to Love. They learned that God is Love, and Love is all there is. Then, the need for a societal rearrangement ceased, as people could now live in the Truth of Jesus Christ. God is Love; but if there is a need for a Major Reconstruction, to then Capacitate humanity to be open to Love again via a Revival/Ressurection, the Cosmic will do the necessary work. I.N.R.I. - Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews). I.N.R.I. - Ignis Natura Renovatur Integra (by Fire, Nature is integrally renewed. I.N.R.I. - In Necis Renascor Integer (in Death I Am Reborn Intact and Pure). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 15 (edited) 4 hours ago, Apotheose said: It’s the law of cause and effect! People in that era were hugely primitive and brutal. Therefore, they awaken God’s Ire; God’s Wrath; God’s Rage… Other people 'in that era' and other religions had no such negative views ; eg. Zoroastrianism .... their religions view on the purpose of life ? Not to 'fear God' not to 'serve ' not .... but simply, their aim in life was ... to have a good life . So why all this agro and violence regarding 'Jehovah' ? ( rhetorical , I have my own answers ) They were in almost absolute God’s absense, since they did not truly Love. By “God’s absense”, I do not mean that Jehovah did not exist, but that they acted as if He did not exist. Their life were purely based on the pleasures of the flesh, on the oscilations of life’s contingencies, on the most Egoic feelings and actions, on everything but Jehovah’s Truth… That is because it was not the larger local traditions ,just a very local one overlaid with a borrowed and concocted 'history' for political and power reasons and then foisted on the larger populace . Quote So, in Christ people were broadly introducted to Love. They learned that God is Love, and Love is all there is. Then, the need for a societal rearrangement ceased, as people could now live in the Truth of Jesus Christ. God is Love; but if there is a need for a Major Reconstruction, to then Capacitate humanity to be open to Love again via a Revival/Ressurection, the Cosmic will do the necessary work. I.N.R.I. - Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews). I.N.R.I. - Ignis Natura Renovatur Integra (by Fire, Nature is integrally renewed. I.N.R.I. - In Necis Renascor Integer (in Death I Am Reborn Intact and Pure). I prefer the 2nd one . Which is also affirmed in Aboriginal teachings , there it is very literal and evident all around and in our particular type of 'nature' some things here cannot be 'renewed' unless by 'fire' (or at least 'smokey molecules ' ) ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrophyte#Pyrophile_plants https://www.britannica.com/list/5-amazing-adaptations-of-pyrophytic-plants ... and also from a hermetic perspective - https://hermetic.com/norton/tablesof Edited January 15 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 15 On 12/01/2024 at 1:37 AM, SirPalomides said: Note that in a prior thread Daniel tried to cast Rambam as a heretic whose Greek influences put him outside the pale of Judaism. You can actually see some of this influence in lines 1-5 of the Yigdal. Be careful ... he could put you on 'ignore' for that comment Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apotheose Posted January 15 (edited) 10 hours ago, Nungali said: I prefer the 2nd one . Which is also affirmed in Aboriginal teachings , there it is very literal and evident all around and in our particular type of 'nature' some things here cannot be 'renewed' unless by 'fire' (or at least 'smokey molecules ' ) ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrophyte#Pyrophile_plants https://www.britannica.com/list/5-amazing-adaptations-of-pyrophytic-plants ... and also from a hermetic perspective - https://hermetic.com/norton/tablesof You rock this forum man The opposition you made between hebrews and zarathrustrians would be correct in my view. But if we really delve into the ‘causes’ of that difference, I fear we would enter the esoteric. Maybe karmic? As to say that God’s manifestation was a reflection of collective conducts? Love/Sin… Interesting to ponder about. As people got educated in Christ’s Love, and consequently shifted their conducts, didn’t ‘Jehovah’ shift His Will as well? That follows a logic, doesn’t it? John 10:30 - “I and The Father are One”. About INRI, I prefer the 2nd too. Thanks a lot for the links, I will read all of it! Edited January 15 by Apotheose Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 15 (edited) 12 hours ago, Apotheose said: They were in almost absolute God’s absense, since they did not truly Love. There is no absense. 23:23 האלהי מקרב אני נאם־יהוה ולא אלהי מרחק׃ Am I a God near at hand, says the Lord, and not a God far away? 23:24 אם־יסתר איש במסתרים ואני לא־אראנו נאם־יהוה הלוא את־השמים ואת־הארץ אני מלא נאם־יהוה׃ Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? said the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? says the Lord. Edited January 15 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 15 13 hours ago, Apotheose said: You rock this forum man Dont say that ! Not in the Abrahamic forum .... 13 hours ago, Apotheose said: The opposition you made between hebrews and zarathrustrians would be correct in my view. But if we really delve into the ‘causes’ of that difference, I fear we would enter the esoteric. Have no 'fear' , it need not be esoteric . It could 'merely' be a historical / anthropological development . Maybe karmic? As to say that God’s manifestation was a reflection of collective conducts? Love/Sin… I would say , that after a while of this 'one supreme God that directs your affairs ' and believing that .... and 'things go wrong' , particularly in battles .... how could your one and only supreme God loose ? He cant , so it must actually be him punishing you for some sin or even minor infraction (if you cant find a major sin ) - I'd refer you to 'Jewish Guilt ' , but leave others to look it up and what actual Jews say about it (as I am not Jewish ) . Other people , if they lost a battle, well that settled it ; " Your God is more powerful , we are defeated ." So they adopted morphed and combined Gods . Or sometimes they just liked the idea of certain other Gods and adopted them into their culture with modifications . Interesting to ponder about. As people got educated in Christ’s Love, and consequently shifted their conducts, didn’t ‘Jehovah’ shift His Will as well? That follows a logic, doesn’t it? Well , as 'the good guys' trend went , in banning animal sacrifice ( Zoroaster's reformation did it very early on ) 'God' decided he better catch up .... no more sacrifice needed - good news . So what does he do ? He sends his own son to be the sacrifice , thus ending the need . Now that type of weirdness needs a theologian to 'explain' ( Theology ; an attempt to explain away the irrational and illogical parts of religion ) John 10:30 - “I and The Father are One”. About INRI, I prefer the 2nd too. Thanks a lot for the links, I will read all of it! I N R I Yod Nun Resh Yod Osiris, isis, Apophis, Osiris Sol setting, Osiris slain,. Virgo, Isis, mighty Mother. Scorpio, Apophis, Destroyer. Sol, Osiris, Risen. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 15 6 hours ago, Daniel said: There is no absense. 23:23 האלהי מקרב אני נאם־יהוה ולא אלהי מרחק׃ Am I a God near at hand, says the Lord, and not a God far away? 23:24 אם־יסתר איש במסתרים ואני לא־אראנו נאם־יהוה הלוא את־השמים ואת־הארץ אני מלא נאם־יהוה׃ Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? said the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? says the Lord. They are questions not statements . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 16 On 15.1.2024 at 11:19 PM, Nungali said: They are questions not statements . Wonder who Yahwe was asking.. his chosen people, the other tribal gods or the supreme ONE. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 16 Havent watched this yet, but educated, unbiased guy: shall Watch tommorow morning : ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 17 32 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: Wonder who Yahwe was asking.. his chosen people, the other tribal gods or the supreme ONE. I think he was having an identity crises and wanted some feedback or reassurance . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 17 31 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: Havent watched this yet, but educated, unbiased guy: shall Watch tommorow morning : ) But can he read and write ancient Hebrew ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted January 17 (edited) accidental multi post plz delete Edited January 17 by Sanity Check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted January 17 (edited) Quote Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle c and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.” 19But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.” 21When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.” Above is one of my favorite bible verses from 1 samuel 8. 1. Israel demands a king. 2. God says, if you receive a king you will be enslaved by him. 3. Israel says: we don't care, we only want to be trendy and do what everyone else is doing. There are many good lessons and wise sayings in the OT. Edited January 17 by Sanity Check 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 17 Regarding your 3. above ; I'd love to read an OT version translated by you . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted January 19 On 17.1.2024 at 1:09 AM, Nungali said: I think he was having an identity crises and wanted some feedback or reassurance . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
