品德. [pǐndé]. 名. moral character

[Mig]

As I started learning about morality, I still don't understand as I found these are part of character ethics:

 

1. Determination 意志yì zhì

2. Endurance 忍耐rěn nài

3. Perseverance 毅力yì lì

4. Patience 耐心nài xīn

5. Courage 勇敢yǒng gǎn

Are all those related to Confucianism ethics or morals?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Mig said:

Are all those related to Confucianism ethics or morals?

no. What you listed are strengths not virtues . Strengths have nothing to do with ethics or morals. An unethical or an immoral man can have them. Virtues are:

The Five Constants are:^[58]

• Ren (benevolence, humaneness)
• Yi (righteousness, justice)
• Li (propriety, rites)
• Zhi (智; zhì: wisdom, knowledge)
• Xin (sincerity, faithfulness)

These are accompanied by the classical four virtues (四字; sìzì), one of which (Yi) is also included among the Five Constants:

• Yi (see above)
• Loyalty (忠; zhōng)
• Filial piety (孝; xiào)
• Continence (节; 節; jié)

[Mig]

52 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

no. What you listed are strengths not virtues . Strengths have nothing to do with ethics or morals. An unethical or an immoral man can have them. Virtues are:

The Five Constants are:^[58]

• Ren (benevolence, humaneness)
• Yi (righteousness, justice)
• Li (propriety, rites)
• Zhi (智; zhì: wisdom, knowledge)
• Xin (sincerity, faithfulness)

These are accompanied by the classical four virtues (四字; sìzì), one of which (Yi) is also included among the Five Constants:

• Yi (see above)
• Loyalty (忠; zhōng)
• Filial piety (孝; xiào)
• Continence (节; 節; jié)

Got it. But what's four virtues (四字; sìzì)? Four characters?

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Mig said:

Got it. But what's four virtues (四字; sìzì)? Four characters?

yes 4 keywords

[Mig]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:58 PM, Taoist Texts said:

yes 4 keywords

I couldn't find where the 四字 came from in the traditional Confucianism. Any sources you can share to explain the reason of those four which includes  節; jié ?

[Maddie]

I don't know much about this, but I think it's interesting. 

[Taoist Texts]

30 minutes ago, Mig said:

I couldn't find where the 四字 came from in the traditional Confucianism. Any sources you can share to explain the reason of those four which includes  節; jié ?

sure. as usual with the chinese, it is convoluted

the initial idea of 4 virtues different from the later 四字 is

Quote

The Four Cardinal Principles and Eight Virtues are a set of Legalist (and later Confucian) foundational principles of morality. The Four Cardinal Principles are propriety (禮), righteousness (義), integrity (廉), and shame (恥).  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles_and_Eight_Virtues

some 1500 years later those morphed into current 四字 in a Song dynasty book 

Quote

 

【出处】宋·洪迈《夷坚丙志·忠孝节义判官》：“吾今为忠孝节义判官，所主人间忠臣、孝子、义夫、节妇事也。”

https://baike.sogou.com/v198291.htm

 

then it was codified again in an immensely popular fantasy book of Ming dynasty

Quote

封神演义    封神演義    Fēng shén Yǎn yì    Investiture of the Gods, major Ming dynasty vernacular novel of mythology and fantasy, very loosely based on King Wu of Zhou's 周武王[Zhou1 Wu3 wang2] overthrow of the Shang, subsequent material for opera, film, TV  

Quote

 

【示例】明·许仲琳《封神演义》第二十回：“民知有忠孝节义，不知妄作邪为。”

https://baike.sogou.com/v198291.htm

 

 

 

 

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

I don't know much about this, but I think it's interesting. 

Since you mentioned Jujitsu (I avoid the Brazilian tag name because of the trend) and I had practiced southern Chinese boxing, I found those strengths that are popular in many martial arts circles which have been influenced by the rújiào 儒教 the scholars (Confucianism) and the folk religion which includes Daoism and Chán Buddhism. Thus, I try to understand where those ideas came from and why people use them in their practice or teachings.
 

[Mig]

41 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure. as usual with the chinese, it is convoluted

the initial idea of 4 virtues different from the later 四字 is

some 1500 years later those morphed into current 四字 in a Song dynasty book 

then it was codified again in an immensely popular fantasy book of Ming dynasty

 

 

 

Great and thanks. Any reason of why 節; jié was included?

[Taoist Texts]

12 hours ago, Mig said:

Any reason of why 節; jié was included?

it predates Confucianism coming from "The Classic of Rites" so it was always there as a key virtue just not codified as one of 4 keywords. In the  Song dynasty there was a major Confucian resurgence against the buddhist  excesses so the  confucians turned to their roots, reformulating the 4 principles to include 節; jié "the chaste moderation"

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… nbsp …

nbsp? not buddhist similar practices? 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

22 minutes ago, Cobie said:

nbsp? not buddhist similar practices? 

 

  is actually one of the most frequently used HTML entities. Nbsp stands for non-breaking space, meaning that strings separated with this ..sorry the link glitched

[Cobie]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

... major Confucian resurgence …

 

What’s euphemistically called ‘footbinding’, started in the period of the rise of Neo-Confucianism.

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

What’s euphemistically called ‘footbinding’, started in the period of the rise of Neo-Confucianism.

strangely enough it did not start in the period of the rise of  Confucianism. probably they needed 1200 years to figure out the connection

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

… Confucianism …

There are several major differences between Confucianism and Neo-Confucianism. 
 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

59 minutes ago, Cobie said:

major differences

 

[ChiDragon]

On 12/15/2023 at 8:46 AM, Mig said:

I couldn't find where the 四字 came from in the traditional Confucianism. Any sources you can share to explain the reason of those four which includes  節; jié ?

忠孝节义，作主语、宾语、定语，成语，中华传统美德，四字美德：忠、孝、节、义 。

四字美德: the four characters of the virtue.

Edited December 16, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

 

 

On 13/12/2023 at 9:54 PM, Taoist Texts said:

… 四字; sìzì …

• Yi [righteousness, justice]
• Loyalty (忠; zhōng)
• Filial piety (孝; xiào)
• Continence (节; 節; jié)

節 jié - (Traditional form of 节)

 

21 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… 四字美德：忠、孝、节、义 …

 

义 yi4 - righteousness, justice 

 

Yippee, you agree. 
 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

On 13/12/2023 at 9:54 PM, Taoist Texts said:

… Continence …

 

The word is a link:
 

definitely not meaning #1

 

meaning #3 does imo not fit in this context

 

so I think meaning #2, imo like this one:

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

@Taoist Texts imo all the other virtues require “continence”, so it all comes down to 虛心 。

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Cobie