Paganism

[NaturaNaturans]

I love the myths and epics and poetry of the indo-europeans. We know they had a concept of a drink that made them immortal/gods: wine of Dionyous, Soma, Mead of poetry… I dont know why i meantioned that, i just think it is cool. 
Anyway, we know quite a bit of their myths and epics and gods, but it seems to me, their practice (like magic), is for the most part lost? How did the indo-euro pagans seek approach the divine?

There is only one of the brances that is still alive, hinduism, so maybe thats a start? Or maybe they did not care so much about religion or the gods, but saw the divine in nature and tried to live life fully.

[Nungali]

Hinduism isnt the only surviving branch -  in Zoroastrian Avestan scripture we can piece together a little of the original form of that religion that Zoroaster  reformed .

" The description of the old Aryan religions, the names of their deities, and the groups that worshipped them, are not uniformly described in  texts. However, in reading the texts, some common themes do emerge, themes that allow us to attempt an understanding of the early Aryan religious beliefs, customs, and groupings - as well as the relationship between the different Aryan groups.

The opening paragraphs of the Avesta's Farvardin Yasht and the Yasht's verse 13.150 also tell us that Gaya Maretan and the other Pre-Zoroastrian Mazdayasni were called paoiryo-tkaesha meaning keepers of the original ancient law. In order to differentiate early Mazda worship from the later Zoroastrian Mazda worship, we will call this original Aryan religion, Mazdayasni Paoiryo-Tkaesha.

 

The Farvardin Yasht's verses 89 & 90 mention that later in Aryan history, Zarathushtra proclaimed the Ahura-tkaesha, the laws of the Lord (Ahura). If the word 'mazda' related to the creative aspect of the divinity grounded in an ultimate concept of wisdom, the word 'ahura' related to the aspect of having dominion over creation through order and laws that are innate in every part and particle of creation (cf. fravashi). Zarathushtra used these two concepts to propound a belief described as Mazdayasno Zarathushtrish Vidaevo Ahura-Tkaesho, that is, Zarathushtrian Mazda-Worship opposed to the daeva through the laws of the Lord (Ahura). "

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/religion.htm

 

So we can assume the type  of religion Zoroaster reformed 'away from' was more like the original Aryan religion , especially in the areas he banned :   animal sacrifice , the consumption of drugs during ritual , the use of 'soma' , not for a medicine but to mix with other different drugs to 'amp up'   before battle   ( soma -  ephedra herb - ephedrine -  'speed'  )  . Also 'idolatry ' .. throw a mix of that in .

 

[NaturaNaturans]

Grazie, a little treasure of texts there

 

[Nungali]

It does seem a rather 'pagan ' religion , in some aspects

 

 

Mid-Winter festival 

 

 

[rocala]

Perhaps Hinduism is not the only one still alive, if we include modern versions. I recall that 2-3 years ago I found something on-line that mentioned some people researching similarities between early Hinduism and what is known of Druidry.

Sorry I cannot provide any links.

[Nungali]

There is a whole lot of 'across the board' similarities  in the Indo-European traditions .

 

But ... where did they  come from ?

[Nungali]

( Possibly , Northern Siberia  .... during  the Ice Age  !  )

[NaturaNaturans]

On 22.10.2023 at 7:14 AM, Nungali said:

It does seem a rather 'pagan ' religion , in some aspects

 

 

Mid-Winter festival 

 

 

The eternal flame 🔥 The kvahrna part was also insightfull. Finally haha

[NaturaNaturans]

I Wonder If monotheism was acctually the default for Paganism. Reasons: Odin being named allfather, sol invictus cult, Cleanthes Hymn to Zeus  (worth a read in my opinion) and so on. Zarathustra definetly deserves a mention. Then we have have plationism and his concept for the demiurge. Many often argue that monotheism is an jewish «invention,» I however, suspect that the jews got it from Zarathustra and greek tradition, and not the other way around. And then we have hinduism and buddhism with their «over soul» and none duality. We know that all these tradition predates Judaism, and that judaism as we know it only happened after hundrets og years of greek and persian  occupation.

[NaturaNaturans]

A little more controversial document/book is one past trough generations of frisians, before they delivered it to a library. 
The nazis were absolutley fascinered by it, so that is probally why it is so unlnown, tabboo today.

it is called the orea Linda manuscript, and makes many refferences to their surprime, monotestic and trancendet deity called Ralda.

[Maddie]

Thought you might find this interesting.

 

 

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

Thought you might find this interesting.

 

 

Your intuistion is spot on;) I am so interrested that i have watched long, long ago, but ty!

[NaturaNaturans]

On 22.10.2023 at 11:34 PM, Nungali said:

There is a whole lot of 'across the board' similarities  in the Indo-European traditions .

 

But ... where did they  come from ?

Why not the pontic step? I know some aspects survived into the americas, but not at the scale it did in Eurasia, did it?

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Your intuistion is spot on;) I am so interrested that i have watched long, long ago, but ty!

 

I love that channel and nerd-ing out about the whole Indo-European commonalities topic.

[NaturaNaturans]

11 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I love that channel and nerd-ing out about the whole Indo-European commonalities topic.

My fav subject in religious and mythologies as well. I just read that @Nungali have studied compative religion. Do you have any book reccomentions?

[NaturaNaturans]

12 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I love that channel and nerd-ing out about the whole Indo-European commonalities topic.

Check out creganford on YouTube, he is a true blessing. If you become a Patreon for like 2 pounds, something like that, you Get a lot benefists alwell. Highly reccomended.

 

[NaturaNaturans]

bought this, sounds promising:
 

«The return of Odin,» Richard Rudgley

Summary:

Quote

Summary

A controversial examination of the influence and presence of the Norse god Odin in contemporary history and culture. It:

 

• Documents Odin’s role in the rise of Nazi Germany, the 1960s counterculture revolution, nationalist and ecological political movements, and the occult revival 
• Examines the spiritual influence of Odin in relation to Jesus Christ 
• Profiles key individuals instrumental in the rise of the modern pagan renaissance 

Exploring the influence of the Norse god Odin in the modern world, Richard Rudgley reveals Odin’s central role in the pagan revival and how this has fueled a wide range of cultural movements and phenomena, including Nazi Germany, the 1960s counterculture revolution, the Lord of the Rings, the ecology movement, and the occult underground. 

Rudgley argues that it is Odin and not Jesus Christ who is the single most important spiritual influence in modern Western civilization. He analyzes the Odin archetype - first revealed by Carl Jung’s famous essay on Wotan - in the context of pagan religious history and explains the ancient idea of the Web - a cosmic field of energies that encompasses time, space, and the hidden potentials of humanity - the pagan equivalent to the Tao of Eastern tradition. The author examines the importance of the concept of wyrd, which corresponds to “fate” or “destiny”, exploring techniques to read destiny such as the runes as well as the existence of yoga in prehistoric and pagan Europe, which later produced the Norse Utiseta, an ancient system of meditation. 

Rudgley documents how the Odin archetype came into play in Nazi Germany with the rise of Hitler and the pagan counterculture of the 1960s. He examines how the concept of subterranean and mythic realms, such as the Hollow Earth, Thule, and Agartha, and mysterious energies like Vril were manifested in both occult and profane ways and investigates key occult figures like Madame Blavatsky, Guido von List, and Karl Wiligut. He provides pagan analyses of Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings and documents the impact the Odin archetype has had on nationalist and fascist groups in America and Europe. 

Examining pagan groups in Europe and America that use the Norse template, Rudgley reveals true paganism as holistic and intimately connected with the forces at work in the life of the planet. Showing how this “green” paganism can be beneficial for dealing with the adverse consequences of globalization and the ongoing ecological crisis, he explains how, when repressed, the Odin archetype is responsible for regressive tendencies and even mass-psychosis - a reflection of the unprecedented chaos of Ragnarok - but if embraced, the Odin archetype makes it possible for like-minded traditions to work together in the service of life.

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The Good News for modern pagans is Henadology and its prophet Edward Butler.

What are Henads you might ask, and it would be a good question.  Henads are an ontological framework for paganism derived from the Pythagorean part of Platonism.  Henads are "unities" which derive from and participate in the One, they provide an ontological basis for paganism.  The paper by Butler linked below is a good introduction and shows how it influenced the Christian mysticism of Meister Eckhart.    A good discussion of this can be found in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Phil0sophy  here:

 

6.1 The Boiling (Over) of Being: Eckhart’s “Metaphysics of Flow”

 

and the downloadable paper here:

(PDF) The Godhead Beyond God and Proclus's Henads

This is an extract from the paper's Abstract:

 

Quote

Meister Eckhart fluctuates between a rather traditional understanding of the Trinity and an extreme nontraditional, even heretical, one according to the Church. In his more traditional formulation, Eckhart proposes that the Persons have come into being through bullitio, in which the essence of God boils eternally within itself, generating the Son and thereby becoming the Father. He also teaches that a Godhead exists beyond the Persons. This Godhead is purely passive, unreachable, and unknowable, and the Persons are divine agents connecting the Godhead with the created universe. This idea of the Godhead beyond God has its roots in Proclus’s writings which has the One as imparticipable but surrounded by Henads, deities that have being from the imparticipable One and act as a bridge between the wholly transcendent One and the rest of the existing entities. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Henads gave me an explanation through Eckhart's doctrine of bullitio for an experience that I had when working to invoke and understand the various sephiroth of the Qabalistic Tree of Life in my late teens over fifty years ago.  When I reached the top of the Tree and proceeded to invoke Kether the first sephiroth, rather than finding the expected experience of pure unchanging One, I found myself envisioning what could only be described as a radiant white cauldron bubbling with life.  This was my own experience of Eckhart's bullitio, decades before I had any idea of Eckhart's ideas.

 

My personal Pythagorean interpretation of Henads at this time is that they are like the set of prime numbers, numbers which are only divisible by one and themselves.  At last I have a use for the prime factorization that I learned in high school algebra!

 

i hope this information is helpful, it would have been very useful to me, oh so long ago.

 

ZYD

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I love that channel and nerd-ing out about the whole Indo-European commonalities topic.

 

I got a bunch of nerdy related posts on DBums ;   IE expansion into Central Asia , IE religions ,  movements into BMAC  and out from there ; west to eventually 'Persia' and east to eventually Tibet  , over/around The Kush into India ,  tracking streams of philosophy and religious similarities , etc .

 

The roots of western ' ethics' .

 

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20170406-this-obscure-religion-shaped-the-west

 

https://infinitediscoveries.org/zoroastrianism-an-ancient-persian-faith-and-the-foundations-of-western-civilization/

[Cobie]

9 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

… the orea Linda manuscript …

The Oera Linda book is considered to have been written as a practical joke.

 

- The language is not actually Old Frisian.
It also contains Dutch, German, French, English, ‘Modern Frisian’ and ‘Town Frisian’ words and the syntax is that of modern Dutch and German.

- A translation key was added to enable reading the so-called ‘runic script’.

 

- The suspected authors are three Dutch people: Over de Linden, who published it; Eelco Verwijs, a linguist specialised in Dutch language; and François HaverSchmidt, aka Piet Paaltjens, a minister and very famous writer.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda 

 

The Oera Linda Book is 19th century literature.

https://www.academia.edu/619669/Het_Oera_Linda_boek_facsimile_transcriptie_vertaling_Goffe_Jensma_editor_Hilversum_Verloren_2006_  

 

OLB was a practical joke 

https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_gid001187801_01/_gid001187801_01_0001.php  
 

OLB was written in a made up language 

 https://www.friesmuseum.nl/collectie/objecten-verhalen/oera-linda-boek  

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Cobie

[NaturaNaturans]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

The Oera Linda book is considered to have been written as a practical joke.

 

- The language is not actually Old Frisian.
It also contains Dutch, German, French, English, ‘Modern Frisian’ and ‘Town Frisian’ words and the syntax is that of modern Dutch and German.

- A translation key was added to enable reading the so-called ‘runic script’.

 

- The suspected authors are three Dutch people: Over de Linden, who published it; Eelco Verwijs, a linguist specialised in Dutch language; and François HaverSchmidt, aka Piet Paaltjens, a minister and very famous writer.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda 

 

The Oera Linda Book is 19th century literature.

https://www.academia.edu/619669/Het_Oera_Linda_boek_facsimile_transcriptie_vertaling_Goffe_Jensma_editor_Hilversum_Verloren_2006_  

 

 

There are some intruging aspects of it though, all tho as you correctly point out, most mainstream academics are sceptical today. I asked chatgdp for some of the reasons it might be real:

 

Certainly, here's the translation of the arguments that suggest the "Oera Linda Book" might be authentic, into English:

1. **Detailed Narratives:** Some proponents claim that the book's detailed and complex narratives are too sophisticated to be purely fictional, especially considering the time of its first presentation. These narratives could indicate a deeper knowledge of history or culture that was unknown at that time.

2. **Lack of Motive for Forgery:** Those arguing for the book's authenticity suggest there was no clear motive for forgery, particularly since there was no apparent financial or personal gain for the author.

3. **Linguistic Characteristics:** Some linguists and researchers have pointed out unique aspects of the language used in the book, which they claim could indicate an origin earlier than the 19th century.

4. **Cultural Resonance:** The fact that the book has had some cultural and historical impact, especially among certain groups in the Netherlands and among some neopagan or nationalist movements, has been used to argue for its significance, if not its authenticity.

5. **Mystique and Occult Interest:** The interest in the book within esoteric and occult circles has sometimes been used as evidence of its unique nature or hidden truths.

It's important to note that these arguments are not widely accepted in the scientific community, and most historians and linguists still consider the "Oera Linda Book" to be a forgery. The evidence and methodologies used to support its authenticity have often been criticized as inadequate or flawed. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the book is a product of the 19th century, rather than an authentic ancient text.

 

 

——————

shouldnt it be fairly easy to test when a book was written?

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

… I asked chatgdp for some of the reasons it might be real …

Bias in the question.
You would need to balance that out with asking chatgdp for some of the reasons it might not be real. 

 

Quote

… 1. … 5. …

 

Do you have a brain? The points 1. to 5. are all ridiculous.
#1 we modern Dutch people can fantasise very well, thank you!

#2 it was never intended as a ‘forgery’, it was a practical joke.

#3 it was written in a made up language.

#4 and #5  lol, now something is true because some people believe it?

 

Quote

shouldnt it be fairly easy to test when a book was written?

 

Indeed it was very easy - read my above post, first 2 quotes.

 

~~~
 

But then there never is any convincing of ‘true believers’ with facts.

 

This was my last ever reply to you.

Firstly, you seem to be unable to think, see above 1. to 5.
Secondly, more importantly, the stuff in the OLB is extremely racist and ultra right wing.
Seems to me you like that stuff, so I say to you “bye bye”.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Cobie

[NaturaNaturans]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Bias in the question.
You would need to balance that out with asking chatgdp for some of the reasons it might not be real. 

 

 

Do you have a brain? The points 1. to 5. are all ridiculous.
#1 we modern Dutch people can fantasise very well, thank you!

#2 it was never intended as a ‘forgery’, it was a practical joke.

#3 it was written in a made up language.

#4 and #5  lol, now something is true because some people believe it?

 

 

Indeed it was very easy - read my above post, first 2 quotes.

But then there never is any convincing of ‘true believers’ with facts.

 

This was my last ever reply to you.

Firstly, you seem to be unable to think, see above 1. to 5.
Secondly, more importantly, the stuff in the OLB is extremely racist and ultra right wing.
Seems to me you like that stuff, so I say to you “bye bye”.

 

 

Dont worry, no reason to say good bye. Just thought it included some historical events that wouldnt have been known at the time (Bronze age collapse) and that the language was older. And i did Ask the opposite question aswell, and admitted that it seems you are correct. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[NaturaNaturans]

And yes, @Cobie, after a Google search it is clear that it is overwhelmingley considered a fraud, and i understand your concern about confirnation bias

Edited November 21, 2023 by NaturaNaturans