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[Cobie]

@Daniel re. entities

 

14 hours ago, Cobie said:

And 自然 。

Ch. 25 (*) , mentions 5 entities ( 人, 地, 天, 道, 自然  , see last 4 lines).
 

Dao “developed from” (first line: 又状虫成 ); Dao takes 自然 as “its model” (last line: 道法自然  ).

 

自然 does not have  a “model”, it’s “that which is so on its own” (last line: 道法自然  ).

 

The origin, 自然 , is unknowable (** ).

 

~~~
* Terebess Henricks 2000, it’s in the next post

** see my 自然 thread https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54593-zi4-ran2-自然/?do=findComment&comment=1003399 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Terebess Henricks 2000, Ch. 25

 

又状虫成， 
先天地生， 
敚[糸禾]， 
独立而不亥， 

There is a form that developed from primordial chaos 
That was born before heaven and earth. 
Silent and still, it stands on its own and does not change. 
... 

 

 

可以为天下母。 
未智（知）其名， 
字之曰道。 
吾强为之名曰大。 

 

It can be regarded as the mother of all under heaven. 
Not yet knowing its name, 
We refer to it as the Dao. 
Were I forced to give it a name, I'd call it the Great. 

 

 

大曰筮， 
筮曰远， 
远曰反。 

 

The "Great" means "overflowing"; 
"Overflowing" means "going far"; 
"Going far" means "to return." 

 

天大、地大、道大、王亦大。 
国中又（有）四大安（焉）， 
王居一安（焉）。 

Heaven is great; the earth is great; the Way is great; and the king too is great. 
In this realm there are four greats, and the king counts as one of them. 

人法地， 
地法天， 
天法道， 
道法自然。 

Humanity takes as its model the earth; 
The earth takes as its model heaven; 
Heaven takes as its model the Way; 
And the Way takes as its model that which is so on its own. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited November 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited November 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited November 29, 2023 by Cobie

[helpfuldemon]

On 9/18/2023 at 2:40 AM, Cobie said:

Terebess Henricks 2000, Ch. 25

 

又状虫成， 
先天地生， 
敚[糸禾]， 
独立而不亥， 

There is a form that developed from primordial chaos 
That was born before heaven and earth. 
Silent and still, it stands on its own and does not change. 
... 

 

 

可以为天下母。 
未智（知）其名， 
字之曰道。 
吾强为之名曰大。 

 

It can be regarded as the mother of all under heaven. 
Not yet knowing its name, 
We refer to it as the Dao. 
Were I forced to give it a name, I'd call it the Great. 

 

 

大曰筮， 
筮曰远， 
远曰反。 

 

The "Great" means "overflowing"; 
"Overflowing" means "going far"; 
"Going far" means "to return." 

 

天大、地大、道大、王亦大。 
国中又（有）四大安（焉）， 
王居一安（焉）。 

Heaven is great; the earth is great; the Way is great; and the king too is great. 
In this realm there are four greats, and the king counts as one of them. 

人法地， 
地法天， 
天法道， 
道法自然。 

Humanity takes as its model the earth; 
The earth takes as its model heaven; 
Heaven takes as its model the Way; 
And the Way takes as its model that which is so on its own. 

 

 

 

From Chaos comes All

Unknown is All

That is All, except

For that which is revealed

In the all.

 

The way is to follow the self.

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

Don't Believe A Word - YouTube

[ChiDragon]

42 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

独立

独立: independent; independence.
The non-natives are not familiar with the compound character. FYI When two characters are compounded, it becomes a term with a complete different meaning than the original meaning of the two separated characters.

[Daniel]

@Cobie,

 

apologies, I missed the notifiications on this thread last week.  I love that translation of Chap. 25.  And the ideas you brought about ziran are really cool.  

 

regarding the Jewish influence, I vote no, so far.  I think you saw that.  I'm not sure what to make of the ming2 connection to "HaShem".  HaShem is nothing more than hebrew meaning "the name"  Ha="the" Shem ="name".   I can explaiin that if you want, but, it doesn't make much sense to me to link up HaShem with 名 based on what is in Chap 1.  Both 無, and 有 are HaShem?  It doesn't fit.  And then there would be 道, above and beyond HaShem?   That's not Jewish.  It can be stretched, I can force it to fit if I get very creative.  VERY creative.  But it's not worth even typing that out.

[Cobie]

 

On 23/09/2023 at 12:05 AM, ChiDragon said:

… Energy do not store in the dantian(丹田) as what people claims. …

 

Yes they do,  look  … energy stored in the dantien:

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

13 hours ago, Daniel said:

… Ha="the" Shem ="name".  …

Thanks, so no connection really. Righto, no need to explain further; I think Van Praag was doing a bit of wishful thinking. 

To do him justice,  I just saw he does say in the book it’s only a ‘hypothesis’. Righto.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited September 28, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

The Chen book is $180 in the Netherlands.  But it’s online:

 

The Annotated Critical Laozi With Contemporary Explication and Traditional Commentary 

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/amb.pdf 

 

Please use it as a good source of reference before going into Kroll.

[Cobie]

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Edited November 29, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

I have read quite a bit in it now, and am distinctly underwhelmed. It’s not based in facts. It’s more of a religious statement.

 

hmmm......
Can you give an example that you think is a religious statement?

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I use the Kroll dictionary.

That would be out of context with the TTC.

[Cobie]

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Edited September 28, 2023 by Cobie

[silent thunder]

When everyone's cup is full, it's time to stop talking and drink the koolaid tea.

[Cobie]

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Edited November 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

I have no interest in the ‘horizon’, so posting further in my own thread.

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

…

The painting, handmade on papyrus paper, represents the Goddess of the sacred tree quenching the thirst of King Khens Mose. On their right the symbol of the Universe, on the left the adoration of the God Rha. It is taken from a painting dating back to the 11th century. B.C. kept at the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna.
…

As a “symbol of the Universe” it’s interesting.

 

If it had no-things in it, it would look like 無極 

 

And the vertical lines in the middle remind me of the 小周天 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

On 26/09/2023 at 9:57 AM, ChiDragon said:

hmmm......
Can you give an example that you think is a religious statement?

 

 

Dont use condoms !

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

I have no interest in the ‘horizon’, so posting further in my own thread.

 

 

As a “symbol of the Universe” it’s interesting.

 

If it had no-things in it, it would look like 無極 

 

And the vertical lines in the middle remind me of the 小周天 

 

 

 

 

I am assuming TT's description was a quote from somewhere ? In any case, yes the 'symbol of the Universe' is interesting  - and unfamilar .

 

The only reference I could find was to the 'shen ring'   as a symbol of  ' the eternity of the entire universe, symmetry, and completeness'.

 

The shen is the hieroglyph of a circle with a line under it . Supposedly originally a coil of rope  ( something that is encircled and defined ) . It later evolved into a form or the cartouche  ( that encircles King's names , hence also related to the falcon , Horus and the Sun  )

 

 

The image in the quote can be seen in Wikiwand where its caption reads : " The sun rises over the circular mound of creation as goddesses pour out the primeval waters around it . "

 

It would seem to relate more to the Hermopolis and Heliopolis traditions  .

 

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths

 

 

[Cobie]

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Edited October 10, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

@ChiDragon,

 

5-6 years ago I was advised by someone I trust, a fluent native Chinese person, daoist, very high cultivator by my immature estimation:

 

never try to interpret a Chinese written character by its shape.

 

( please don't laugh too much when reading this ) The advice was given to me because I was sharing with a friend that I noticed, to me, 善 reminds me of a dragon's face blowing me a kiss.  Hopefully you know this English phrase?  "Blowing a kiss"

 

Spoiler

 

Do you have an opinion about this?  Interpreting a Chinese character like a pictogram?

 

Since I received that advice I try to avoid it.  But it's tempting, and I find myself doing it accidentally in an effort to aid memorization.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

I’m going to take a break from the forum for 3 weeks. Be well. 

 

 

 Thank you for all your help.  I consider you a valuable and knowledgeable resource.