Recommendable and not legit systems

[wandelaar]

I haven't got the expertise to rule out fraud by setting the conditions. Many people wrongly think they do, but that's a huge mistake. If it were that simple than stage magicians and illusionists would have gone out of business long ago. People would have seen trough their tricks. The opposite is true. So going to a Chi Master (true or fake) myself would be of no help.

[Shadow_self]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I haven't got the expertise to rule out fraud by setting the conditions. Many people wrongly think they do, but that's a huge mistake. If it were that simple than stage magicians and illusionists would have gone out of business long ago. People would have seen trough their tricks. The opposite is true. So going to a Chi Master (true or fake) myself would be of no help.

 

Because of the nature of the effect, it is very simple. There's only so many variables here

 

People all over the forum have mentioned the various ways you can do so. None of them are experts really, they just understand the properties. I still don't think Yang Qi is a great measure though.

 

The effect of Yin Qi is a lot better imo. Id be really interested to see someone replicate that effect internally  with trickery 

 

What is a lot harder to figure out, is whether the practice itself works. The only way to do that is to actually do it

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

13 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I may well be searching for something (a simple DIY experiment proving faqi) that can't be done. But a session as in the video wouldn't solve the problem. The first thing I thought of when viewing the video was: what is in the desk? This might be solved by asking permission to look inside, but I'm sure that I would come up with more doubts when at home. 

You can do the same thing without a desk. It can be on clear glass or whatever you like. Will have the same effect. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

So going to a Chi Master (true or fake) myself would be of no help.

It would. Once you feel it you won’t have any doubts. It feels different than just an electric shock. 

[wandelaar]

I have made my point several times now. But it's ignored. If others are happy with the generation of internal feelings and/or unverified beliefs, so be it. That's not my cup of tea.

[Shadow_self]

43 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I have made my point several times now. But it's ignored. If others are happy with the generation of internal feelings and/or unverified beliefs, so be it. That's not my cup of tea.

 

Its not that its ignored, its just not really a valid reason to not seek out something you state genuine curiosity about. Fleeting interest? Sure, but a genuine curiosity warrants a bit more imo

 

I really don't mean this in an bad way, but it comes across like you are saying "I am not discerning enough to figure out whether im being fooled or not". That's a pretty bleak view to take of oneself. These people aren't all master manipulators believe it or not.

 

@Pak_Satrio is trying to tell you that whatever reason you give to yourself not to go searching, is something that can be dealt with in person.

 

Take freeform's many accounts of what he's left behind in pursuit of such things.

 

Things are far more accessible now than they were a decade ago, and WAY more than two decades ago. We also have the time and experience of people who did go out and waste time, money and effort, who fortunately tell us truths to save us the same struggles.

 

We owe them a great debt imo. Minefields without such guidance

 

Outside of monetary shortages, health reasons, family commitments etc there's really no reason why someone cant go do a bit of search and exploration, if its what they are really interested in. It makes no difference to us. We have teachers, practices and know the actual truth of the matter

 

But like I said, people will either find a way to dig deeper, or find an excuse not to. And that's fine

 

From what I've seen, people that fall into the latter category tend to be protecting some kind of deep seated emotional belief or something that forms a core part of their identity, and so it is easier to avoid challenging that.

 

Before anyone goes there pointing fingers, Im not saying that's you,

 

However in my experience, people who have tended to shy away from confronting this in my circles, have generally been of that makeup

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

I have made my point several times now. But it's ignored. If others are happy with the generation of internal feelings and/or unverified beliefs, so be it. That's not my cup of tea.

You don’t even have to go to verify anything. Go for your own curiosity, and also for the health benefits.

 

But like I said, if it’s legit it will feel different than a static shock or touching an electric fence. This is something anyone can notice, you don’t have to be an expert.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[kakapo]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

The problem is: I can't create such a protocol because I haven't got the expertise to do so. However if a skeptical (but nevertheless open minded) organization that has the expertise to rule out fraud to the best of their ability would find the electrical chi phenomenon to exist then I would reckon it a lot more likely that it does actually exist. And when other skeptical organizations afterwards are able to replicate the positive result than I would consider it even more likely that the electrical chi phenomenon exists. Physics has come to except even more strange phenomena in the fields of relativity theory and quantum mechanics so I have no doubt that after the first shock on seeing the electric chi phenomenon actually happen scientists would eventually accept the existence of electrical chi, that is: if there is a good repeatable experiment that shows it. But such a trajectory would take some years or even decades, and the best approach for me personally would be to have a simple experiment that I can do myself to take away my doubts. But such a simple experiment may well be impossible. And I don't want to invest years of training to acquire some capability that might not even exist and that I don't plan to use for any other purpose than convincing me of its existence anyway.

 

I am pretty sure you could strip Chris Angel naked, check him with a metal detector, have him change into clothes you provided, take him to a random hotel you choose while under your constant supervision while someone else drove you, and when you got to your location, you could have him strip and check his body with a metal detector again and check the clothes themselves for hidden devices.

Stage magic depends on devices hidden on his person and props he has set up at the location beforehand.

If you followed that protocol, you could be fairly certain that stage magic would not be possible.

If it would work on a stage magician, it would work on a person claiming Siddhis too.

Edited February 8, 2023 by kakapo

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

You don’t even have to go to verify anything. Go for your own curiosity, and also for the health benefits.

 

But like I said, if it’s legit it will feel different than a static shock or touching an electric fence. This is something anyone can notice, you don’t have to be an expert.

 

Kostas represented it quite well here imo, noting it is rather like the second, not the first

 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

49 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

I am pretty sure you could strip Chris Angel naked, check him with a metal detector, have him change into clothes you provided, take him to a random hotel you choose while under your constant supervision while someone else drove you, and when you got to your location, you could have him strip and check his body with a metal detector again and check the clothes themselves for hidden devices.

Stage magic depends on devices hidden on his person and props he has set up at the location beforehand.

If you followed that protocol, you could be fairly certain that stage magic would not be possible.

If it would work on a stage magician, it would work on a person claiming Siddhis too.

 

It also wouldn't work one someone who actually had them  

 

While true that it can rule out fraud at the level of someone using a device or props, it  still does not give legitimacy to the practice imo at least

 

Recall, that is not the only way of generating the effect via an alternative cause.

 

You would still need to rule out an external source (such as the rather questionable practice I linked earlier) or taking external pills etc. Its possible that these may be controlled for too, though it is a bit trickier, especially the latter

 

At this stage self experimentation becomes more important to legitimize something, imo at least

[forestofemptiness]

12 hours ago, kakapo said:

John did it:

 

I don't think he was open to all amateurs, nor do these people appear to be professional debunkers. They were introduced to him by the filmmaker John had a prior established relationship with. It is certainly a weird crew: the CEO of an organization initially formed to find the yeti, a doctor who is well known as a competitive sailor, and a neurologist. Neither rank amateurs randomly calling him out, nor an established team versed in either mechanical or electrical engineering, illusions, nor fraud. Rather, they seemed to be contacts of the filmmaker John already knew and was quite sympathetic toward him given his prior documentary. I would note that he wore neither handcuffs and still had his shirt and underwear on, so he failed your established criteria as well. But I would hardly equate this to some stranger calling him out and he immediately agreeing to whatever terms they set out.  

 

In addition, Harry Houdini famously went through strip searches from doctors before his escapes. One trick he was said to have used was to put a lockpick on a fishhook, and when he met the doctor would give the doctor a friendly pat the doctor on the back, hooking the lockpick on the rear of the doctor's jacket. At the end of the exam, he would then give the doctor a thank you pat, picking it back up. So here we have a fraud that arguably may have passed your criteria.

 

Most importantly, we don't see his feet. If he had a device in his sandals as is often done, he could have slipped out of his sandals during any search and then put them back on before any demonstration. So there are still ways to defraud in that video (obviously, since it is not well accepted in the skeptical community, as no demonstration would be). 

An example here: 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

So again, it falls back to your own personal experience. I'm not saying John was a fraud, but the proof is not as conclusive as you claim. So again, why go through all the effort at the request of some one you don't even know? 

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

Those interested in finding out more about scientific study of such phenomena can take a look at this study done at the Menninger Institute in the 1960s on Swami Rama 

 

https://swamij.com/pdf/swami-rama-beyond-biofeedback.pdf

 

 

[wandelaar]

I'm happy to see that the problem of the possibility of fraud is taken seriously now.

 

Thanks to dwai for the pdf, I will read it.

[forestofemptiness]

I note that the longer video is a bit different than the presentation here. In this longer video, John ceases contact once he learns the initial film is made public. Years pass, and he reached out again to Mr. Blair for a brief time. He then refuses any more testing after the chopstick incident. So it sounds like he only opened himself up for a very short period of time to very specific individuals, which undercuts this myth that he was open to testing generally. 

 

I would also note in this video it is clear that he is wearing his slippers when they are touching his arm and feeling the shocks. Again, not saying he is a fraud, but these videos are hardly any sort of "gold standard" for testing. 

 

The Final Qigong Demonstration of John Chang (martialdevelopment.com)

[freeform]

8 hours ago, kakapo said:

you could strip Chris Angel naked, check him with a metal detector, have him change into clothes you provided, take him to a random hotel you choose while under your constant supervision while someone else drove you, and when you got to your location, you could have him strip and check his body with a metal detector again and check the clothes themselves for hidden devices.

Is this really science or just an erotic fantasy you’ve got 🤔 😄

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Just now, freeform said:

Is this really science or just an erotic fantasy you’ve got 🤔 😄

Once he’s cuffed they’ll put copper wire up his bum

[kakapo]

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Once he’s cuffed they’ll put copper wire up his bum

I know this was meant as a joke, but I just want to state again that no one in our group at least puts wires in their bum or anything like that.

John taught people to sit on the earth during meditation, and a grounding wire was only to be used if it was snowing or raining.

Even then, no wire went anywhere near anyone's bum.

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, kakapo said:

John taught people to sit on the earth during meditation, and a grounding wire was only to be used if it was snowing or raining.

 

I don't like the joke either. But perhaps you could tell us what exactly the wire was for and how it was used.

[kakapo]

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

I don't like the joke either. But perhaps you could tell us what exactly the wire was for and how it was used.

 

John taught that it was necessary to be electrically grounded during meditation in order to absorb yin chi, which comes from the earth.

[kakapo]

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I don't think he was open to all amateurs, nor do these people appear to be professional debunkers. They were introduced to him by the filmmaker John had a prior established relationship with. It is certainly a weird crew: the CEO of an organization initially formed to find the yeti, a doctor who is well known as a competitive sailor, and a neurologist. Neither rank amateurs randomly calling him out, nor an established team versed in either mechanical or electrical engineering, illusions, nor fraud. Rather, they seemed to be contacts of the filmmaker John already knew and was quite sympathetic toward him given his prior documentary. I would note that he wore neither handcuffs and still had his shirt and underwear on, so he failed your established criteria as well. But I would hardly equate this to some stranger calling him out and he immediately agreeing to whatever terms they set out.  

 

In addition, Harry Houdini famously went through strip searches from doctors before his escapes. One trick he was said to have used was to put a lockpick on a fishhook, and when he met the doctor would give the doctor a friendly pat the doctor on the back, hooking the lockpick on the rear of the doctor's jacket. At the end of the exam, he would then give the doctor a thank you pat, picking it back up. So here we have a fraud that arguably may have passed your criteria.

 

Most importantly, we don't see his feet. If he had a device in his sandals as is often done, he could have slipped out of his sandals during any search and then put them back on before any demonstration. So there are still ways to defraud in that video (obviously, since it is not well accepted in the skeptical community, as no demonstration would be). 

An example here: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

So again, it falls back to your own personal experience. I'm not saying John was a fraud, but the proof is not as conclusive as you claim. So again, why go through all the effort at the request of some one you don't even know? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://mindscience.org/the-foundation/about-tom-slick/

An intrepid explorer, Tom sponsored two expeditions to Nepal in the late 1950s, hoping to find the Yeti in order to scientifically determine whether it was a legitimate "missing link" between Homo sapiens and earlier primates.

While he didn’t find the Yeti, Tom returned from his expeditions in Nepal with a profound desire to explore the unknown mysteries of the mind, inspired by the powers of the mind he observed in the yogis and holy men he encountered. That desire inspired his creation of the Mind Science Foundation.

 

 

Roger Nilson, a medical doctor.

Gregory V. Simpson, a very well-known neuroscientist:

Formerly the director of the dynamic neuroimaging laboratory at UCSF, co-director of the dynamic brain activity imaging laboratory at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and a senior scientist at the brain plasticity institute,

Kosta was the lead engineer for the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon program.

Kosta convinced John to call Lawrence Blair and assemble a team to investigate him. The hope here was that it would inspire people to pursue and preserve this knowledge, which is at risk of dying out.

John was stripped down to his shirt and underwear and checked with a metal detector.

As to John hiding a negative ion generator and a 9-volt battery on the back of one of the researchers, rest assured that didn't happen.

Also, these negative ion generator devices were not available in the early 1990s, to the best of my knowledge.

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, kakapo said:

John taught that it was necessary to be electrically grounded during meditation in order to absorb yin chi, which comes from the earth.

 

Then wat else was the ground wire connected to apart from the earth? Strange speculations will likely keep circulating as long as it isn't clear how exactly this grounding was done.

[wandelaar]

7 hours ago, kakapo said:

Also, these negative ion generator devices were not available in the early 1990s, to the best of my knowledge.

 

They may or may not have been commercially available back then, but I think an electronics hobbyist would have been able to build one himself even then.

[kakapo]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Then wat else was the ground wire connected to apart from the earth? Strange speculations will likely keep circulating as long as it isn't clear how exactly this grounding was done.

 

There is a grounding rod, a grounding wire, and a grounding rod nut.

The rod is driven deep into the earth, leaving only a small bit exposed.

A grounding rod nut secures the wire.

The wire is run inside the home.

Some people use an unpainted metal chair.

Some people use a large flat sheet of chainmail over a cushion.

Some people use a cooking sheet.

I'm sure there are countless variations on this.

I don't know of anyone in our group who sits with a wire in their bum, though.

[wandelaar]

Thank you very much, this explains a lot.

[kakapo]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

They may or may not have been commercially available back then, but I think an electronics hobbyist would have been able to build one himself even then.

 

To the best of my knowledge, these devices hit the market in the early 2000s.

 

 

https://smartenergy.illinois.edu/ionization-technologies/

 

Overview: Ionization technologies have been in use for air purification since around 2000 when Sharper Image released the Ionic Breeze air purifier. Early versions of ion generating devices used plasma tubes to energize air flowing over the plasma, breaking the water vapor molecules into hydroxyl radicals, ozone, and other reactive oxygen species (ROS). The problem with these early models was the purposeful or incidental production of ozone, a respiratory irritant. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by kakapo