Cobie

Ch 3 - a totalitarian dark place?

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19 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

… when we come across a piece that presents a difficulty, why not modify it a bit? …

 

Changing the text instead of enduring the agonies of changing your own conviction. (Paul R Goldin)

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I believe the earliest extant commentary on the DDJ is that by Hanfeizi, who indeed interpreted it as advocating his legalist approach to statecraft. 

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30 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Changing the text instead of enduring the agonies of changing your own conviction. (Paul R Goldin)

 

My convictions are a loving attitude, intuitive insight, and practical reason.

 

Handed down claims by 'authorities' take a back seat in my mind.

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On 09/05/2022 at 9:45 AM, wandelaar said:

The Tao Te Ching indeed contains some parts that could be called 'legalist' …

 

43 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

… commentary on the DDJ … by Hanfeizi, who indeed interpreted it as advocating his legalist approach to statecraft. 


 

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我稍微有點看懂你們在討論什麼了

從我的角度看到的第三章

是說統治者的態度會影響人民

 

這個第三章在帛書當中屬於第四十七節

 

反過來說,如果人民會爭賢名,那就是因為統治者推崇賢者

如果人民偷盜,那是因為統治者以稀有的貨物為貴

 

也就是說人民的偏差是源自統治者的偏差態度

 

是一種反求諸己的態度

 

I kind of understand what you're talking about

Chapter 3 from my point of view

It means that the attitude of the ruler affects the people

This third chapter belongs to the forty-seventh verse in the silk book

Conversely, if the people will strive for the reputation of the virtuous, it is because the rulers respect the reputation of the virtuous

If the people steal, it's because the rulers value rare goods

That is to say, the deviation of the people is due to the deviation of the ruler's attitude

is a self-seeking attitude

 

 

 

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1. Dejectedly soliciting intelligentsia,

2. Discourage people from striving.

3. Not to value hard to obtained goods,

4. Prevent people from being thieves.

5. Not being seen as desirable,

6. People won't become perturbed.

7. With the sagacious ruling,

8. Emptied one's heart,

9. Solidified one's belly,

10. Weaken one's volition,

11. Strengthen one's bones,

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing couldn't be handled.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

You previously advised to use the “silk book” 
https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53587-paul-golding/?do=findComment&comment=981960

 

Looking at  http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC3.pdf  ,  seems you use the Wang Bi characters.
 

Why not use 馬王堆帛書 (Mawangdui silk book)?  Text B is complete.

 

 

你的建議更加嚴謹

 

我比較懶

Your advice is more rigorous

i'm lazy

 

這個章節被竄改的地方不多

大致上意義還是跟帛書版差不多

 

不像帛書版的『致虛,極也,守靜,表也』被改成『致虛極,守靜篤』那就是非常嚴重的竄改了

Not much has been tampered with in this chapter

Generally speaking, it is similar to the silk version.

Unlike the silk version of "Zhixu, extreme, keep quiet, surface" is changed to "Zhixu, keep quiet", that is a very serious tampering

 

這個竄改已經嚴重影響到搬運法的其中一本假經典的核心價值

 

This tampering has seriously affected the core value of one of the fake classics of the handling method

Edited by awaken
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7 hours ago, awaken said:

… the attitude of the ruler affects the people …

 

6 hours ago, Mango said:

… 7. With the sagacious ruling … 


I don’t think the DDJ addresses the ‘ruler’.

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3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 


I don’t think the DDJ addresses the ‘ruler’.

 

why?

 

那你如何解釋這段?

 

So how do you interpret this passage?

 

 

帛書甲本

治大國,若烹小鮮。
以道立天下,其鬼不神;非其鬼不神也,其神不傷人也;非其神不傷人也,聖人亦弗傷也。
夫兩不相傷,故德交歸焉。

 

Governing a big country should not easily disturb the people. It should be like frying fish. Fry it until it is cooked enough before turning it over and frying it again. But don't stop turning it completely, or the fish will burn.

 

Governing the world with Dao, so as to achieve "the success of the work, the people all say that I am natural." The world can be free from problems, and there is no need to believe in ghosts and gods, so ghosts and gods can't harm people.

 

Not only can gods not hurt people, but the people don't think saints hurt people

 

Since ghosts, gods and saints do not harm people, virtue is added to the whole country.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, awaken said:

… Generally speaking, it is similar to the silk version. …

 

Comparing the MWD B characters with the WB, I found meaningful differences in 3 places:

 

不 上 賢 bu4 shang4 xian2 
~~> 不 尚 [ shang4 - to value ] 賢
 
使 民 不 亂 shi3 min2 bu4 luan4 
~~> 使 心  [ min2xin1 - will of the people ] 不 亂;
 
弗 為 而 已 則 无 不 治 矣  fu2 wei2 er2 yi3 ze2 wu2 bu4 zhi4 yi3 
~~> 為 也。為 無 為,則 無 不 治。
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Cobie

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https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/93082941

 

這個人的解釋跟傳統的解釋完全不同,但是卻非常合理,給大家參考一下

 

This person's explanation is completely different from the traditional explanation, but it is very reasonable. For your reference

不上贤,使民不争;不贵难得之货,使民不为盗;不见可欲,使民不乱。是以圣人之治也:虚其心,实其腹,弱其志,强其骨,恒使民无知无欲也。使夫,知不敢,弗为而已,则无不治矣。

 

 

侯王不以贤者为好,在治理过程中体现民众的意愿(不争,不强行体现自己的意志);不贵难得之货,在治理过程中不象盗贼那样掠夺民财;不要求体现自己的欲望,在治理过程中不乱为。

所以圣人所治理的清平世界,圣人应当是:虚其心,实其腹,弱其志,强其骨的状态,在管理中应当是无知无欲(正与本章前三句相呼应)。

(侯王)知道什么是他们所应该不敢做即不该做的事情,对于这些事没有做就应当结束,如此则无不治矣。

The princes and kings do not regard the sages as good, and in the governance process reflect the will of the people (do not fight, do not forcefully reflect their own will); do not value rare goods, and do not plunder people's wealth like thieves in the governance process; do not ask to reflect their own desire, and do not act chaotically in the governance process.

Therefore, in a clean and peaceful world governed by sages, sages should be in a state of emptying their hearts, strengthening their stomachs, weakening their aspirations, and strengthening their bones, and should be ignorant and without desires in management (which echoes the first three sentences of this chapter).

(Hou Wang) know what they should not dare to do or should not do, and if they do not do these things, they should end, and everything will be cured.

 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, awaken said:

… 无不治矣。… everything will be cured.


Yes, I too choose the meaning ‘cure’ for 治 .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Cobie said:


Yes, I too choose the meaning ‘cure’ for 治 .

 

抱歉,我覺得google把『治』翻譯成『cure』真的有點奇怪

 

很抱歉,我沒有仔細看google的翻譯

 

治應該是治理

 

Sorry, I think it's a little strange that google translates "治" into "cure"

I'm sorry, I didn't read the google translation carefully

治 should be govern

Edited by awaken
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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, awaken said:

… 治 …


Kroll dictionary 治 includes the meanings < heal, cure (sickness); solve (difficulties) >

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Just now, Cobie said:


Kroll dictionary 治 includes the meanings < heal, cure (sickness); solve (difficulties) >

 

https://www.zdic.net/hans/治

 

yes, 治 can be ‘cure’

 

but 治 should be 'govern' here

 

治 also can be 'stable'

for example, 天下治

the world is stable

 no war

 

there are many meanings of 治

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, awaken said:

… should be …


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I don’t think so. :P:P:P:P:P
 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Cobie said:


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

I know what you means

 

yes, It is also a bit strange that “治” is translated as govern

 

则无不治矣。

 

nothing can not be governed to stable

 

so 治 here means everything in the country will be OK

 

Because the king know what he should do or should not do

 

 

Edited by awaken

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Posted (edited)
… no problem will not be solved!
 
无 不 治 矣 
wu2 bu4 zhi4 yi3
< nothing | not | heal, cure (sickness); solve (difficulties) | (GP)>
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Cobie

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2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

… no problem will not be solved!
 
无 不 矣 
wu2 bu4 zhi4 yi3
< nothing | not | heal, cure (sickness); solve (difficulties) | (GP)>
 

 

雖然你說得合理

但是以我一個中文母語使用者來說

還是覺得很奇怪

Although what you said is reasonable

But for me, a native Chinese speaker

still feel weird

 

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

… a loving attitude, intuitive insight, and practical reason. …

 

 

I share these values. :)
 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)

不過對於『不貴難得之貨』

在台灣的我很有感覺

因為快篩在台灣變成『難得之貨』

因為官員想要賺錢

所以限制進口

只有與官員有關係的商人才可進口

而且被賣貴了

 

But for "raise up the price of the rare goods"

I feel very much in Taiwan

quick testing for covid-19 has become a "rare product" in Taiwan

Because officials want to make money

So restrict the import

Only businessmen with ties to officials can import

And it's overpriced

Edited by awaken

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

I believe the earliest extant commentary on the DDJ is that by Hanfeizi …


:lol: Those who do not understand write a commentary. :P
 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, awaken said:

… for me, a native Chinese speaker still feel weird


Laozi did not speak the way you currently speak. Language and the meaning of characters evolved over time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cobie

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Posted (edited)
Kroll dictionary  includes the meanings: 
<possessing wisdom, judgement and moral excellence. a. profoundly wise and virtuous; sage(ly) >

聖人
In the context of Ch 3, 聖人 sheng4 ren2 imo means ‘a wise and virtuous person’. 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Cobie

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