Power centers/vortices

[awaken]

On 2022/4/7 at 2:27 AM, dwai said:

At one stage of my life (in my 20s), I used to see Himalayan Sadhus every night -- in my dreams, in between sleeping and waking -- they used to call me to join them. This happened every night for months until the day I decided to get married. Then the main Sadhu, a kindly old man said, "He's not going to make it this time." 

A couple of decades later, while I was visiting the Himalayas, they told my teacher that he was to be my guide/mentor this time and that I will have to come back again to complete a mission. 

 

Later on, it became visits from other (dimensional) beings (for example one visited me with the head of a fox and then split into nine fox beings). And then it became visits from sages and deities during the day, in waking time as well. The last big one, was by Lord Krishna -- when he visited me, there was so much light and such a high tone that accompanied it, that I had to close my "eyes", bow my head and say "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna"  -- and I was embraced by him. It was like looking into the sun as the sun came hurtling towards you...

 

Now it only happens when I want it to happen -- ie when I'm looking to connect with specific deities or Gurus (works better with those whom I have a connection with). 

Also, I am visited by those (there have friends and family as well), who have either just departed or are on the verge. I usually send them love and direct light towards them. This happens to my teacher on a regular basis too -- something to do with my lineage through him.

 

 

 

我二三十歲的時候，卡在欲界幻境很多年，也經常出現這類的人物，印象最深刻的就是觀世音菩薩，從天空而降，伴隨著金色的煙花噴出，同時我的全身氣感也很強。

 

但是多年之後，當過經歷過真正的空定之後，我終於知道，這些都是欲界幻境。

 

祝你早日看穿這一切。

 

When I was in my twenties and thirties, I was stuck in the illusion of the Desire Realm for many years, and such characters often appeared. The most impressive one was the Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva, who descended from the sky, accompanied by golden fireworks, and at the same time my whole body felt a sense of qi. Also strong.

But after many years, after experiencing true emptiness, I finally know that these are all illusions of the Desire Realm.

[old3bob]

 

The Historic Buddha did not dismiss deities yet many "modern" Buddhists seem to feel free to do so....umm

[forestofclarity]

20 hours ago, dwai said:

It depends on what perspective one takes. From a transactional perspective, where one only considers the physical layer, only waking state phenomena matter.

 

If one considers the subtle and causal layers, then the dreams, visions, etc  can be relevant. 

 

Even on subtle and causal layers, I presume there needs to be some discrimination. But usually (as in your example as well) the test for the "truth" or objectivity or intersubjectivity or whatever usually falls on the physical dimension (although it need not, for example with awareness teachings). For example, with energy work, the most convincing display is not the inner feeling but the outer manifestations. 

 

Between two data points, there are many connecting stories that can be told. I've never really been comfortable with drawing conclusions, only letting the experience stand for itself, but it is interesting to see which connections people like to draw. Another example is the Daoist Dan tians, the various chakras systems, Tibetan Buddhism, etc. Many people presume one or more of these are "true," but it seems to me whatever one you cultivate will be the true one manifesting physical and psychological effects. Not because that is how the body is set up, but more due to the malleability of the world. And yet malleability only goes so far, as I doubt you can just invent a made-up system and have it work. A paradox. 

 

One interesting thing is the distinction between veridical and non-veridical out of body experiences. Near death, there are strong reports of people observing things their body could not detect. Typical non-near death OBE procedures, however, usually fail to uncover actual data, such as the ability to correctly read an obscured card. Personally, I don't think in any case is anyone leaving their body, because the body is not the container. Rather, it would seem closer to describe these as shifts in consciousness. 

 

[forestofclarity]

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

it seems like there is tons of commentary to be found  on the internet about Adi Shankara teachings compared to there not being tons of direct quotes.  But a main and directly stated  one  is on the reality of Atman/Brahman which is contrary to Buddhist teachings

 

I actually went through Shankara's (translated) writings to see how much he attacked Buddhism. turns out, it wasn't much. I don't think Buddhism at the time in India (if it even existed) was much of a force. Rather, the focus of his critiques were directed at Mimamsa schools. And the critiques against Buddhism were based primarily on Abhidharma concepts (especially momentariness) as opposed to the Mahayana and Tantric ideas espoused by Stirling. And if you choose to stick to Shankara, you might want to check out Swami Satchidanandendra on the topic because stripping Vedanta back to Shankara eliminates about 1,000 years of Vedanta. Per Swami, even typical notions like the Self or Atman are not actually positive descriptions, but rather part of the larger method of adhyasa -apavada method of proposing and negating. 

 

I was listening to Swami Sarvapriyananda describe that in Vedanta, in addition to mantra, there has traditionally been deity visualization and practice. This would align the core practices of Vedanta, Tantra, and Tantric Buddhism in that specific regard. And of course, in none of these systems is that the highest practice. It seems very clear that all of these systems share roots.

 

I have had at least one teacher traditionally trained in both Zen and Vedanta who thought there was no conflict. But scholars vary along the lines of comparison, which can be read about here:

Shankara: A Hindu Revivalist or a Crypto-Buddhist? (gsu.edu)

[awaken]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

The Historic Buddha did not dismiss deities yet many "modern" Buddhists seem to feel free to do so....umm

 

如果你說的是晚期的佛教經典，那確實是神佛滿天飛。

 

但是如果你說的是早期的阿含經，那就完全是另外一套價值觀了。

 

如果你真的對佛經有興趣，最好也研究一下佛經產生的時代，和價值觀的改變。

 

If you are talking about the late Buddhist scriptures, it is indeed full of gods and Buddhas.

But if you're talking about the early Agam Sutra, it's a completely different set of values.

If you are really interested in Buddhist scriptures, it is best to also study the era of Buddhist scriptures and the changes in values.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, awaken said:

 

如果你說的是晚期的佛教經典，那確實是神佛滿天飛。

 

但是如果你說的是早期的阿含經，那就完全是另外一套價值觀了。

 

如果你真的對佛經有興趣，最好也研究一下佛經產生的時代，和價值觀的改變。

 

If you are talking about the late Buddhist scriptures, it is indeed full of gods and Buddhas.

But if you're talking about the early Agam Sutra, it's a completely different set of values.

If you are really interested in Buddhist scriptures, it is best to also study the era of Buddhist scriptures and the changes in values.

 

I'm talking about what was recorded and passed down as witness to what the Historic Buddha said before his passing, thus not what later Buddhists said nor per whatever sect they are part of or per whatever the founders of (later) sects may have said.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

8 hours ago, awaken said:

 

 

我二三十歲的時候，卡在欲界幻境很多年，也經常出現這類的人物，印象最深刻的就是觀世音菩薩，從天空而降，伴隨著金色的煙花噴出，同時我的全身氣感也很強。

 

但是多年之後，當過經歷過真正的空定之後，我終於知道，這些都是欲界幻境。

 

祝你早日看穿這一切。

 

When I was in my twenties and thirties, I was stuck in the illusion of the Desire Realm for many years, and such characters often appeared. The most impressive one was the Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva, who descended from the sky, accompanied by golden fireworks, and at the same time my whole body felt a sense of qi. Also strong.

Very good  

8 hours ago, awaken said:

But after many years, after experiencing true emptiness, I finally know that these are all illusions of the Desire Realm.

Who experienced true emptiness? 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I actually went through Shankara's (translated) writings to see how much he attacked Buddhism. turns out, it wasn't much. I don't think Buddhism at the time in India (if it even existed) was much of a force. Rather, the focus of his critiques were directed at Mimamsa schools. And the critiques against Buddhism were based primarily on Abhidharma concepts (especially momentariness) as opposed to the Mahayana and Tantric ideas espoused by Stirling. And if you choose to stick to Shankara, you might want to check out Swami Satchidanandendra on the topic because stripping Vedanta back to Shankara eliminates about 1,000 years of Vedanta. Per Swami, even typical notions like the Self or Atman are not actually positive descriptions, but rather part of the larger method of adhyasa -apavada method of proposing and negating. 

 

I was listening to Swami Sarvapriyananda describe that in Vedanta, in addition to mantra, there has traditionally been deity visualization and practice. This would align the core practices of Vedanta, Tantra, and Tantric Buddhism in that specific regard. And of course, in none of these systems is that the highest practice. It seems very clear that all of these systems share roots.

 

I have had at least one teacher traditionally trained in both Zen and Vedanta who thought there was no conflict. But scholars vary along the lines of comparison, which can be read about here:

Shankara: A Hindu Revivalist or a Crypto-Buddhist? (gsu.edu)

 

the bottom line is that Shankara taught of that which is 180 degrees out from the core Buddhist teaching which is against Atman/Brahman,  and that still stands regardless of anyone beating around the bush about it or in trying to draw correlations.  Granted  there is much common ground per many of the teachings in Hinduism and Buddhism that don't conflict but not in the core or central one.  And for anyone to espouse that they are somehow equal in that core teaching is a disservice too both, imo. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Even on subtle and causal layers, I presume there needs to be some discrimination. But usually (as in your example as well) the test for the "truth" or objectivity or intersubjectivity or whatever usually falls on the physical dimension (although it need not, for example with awareness teachings). For example, with energy work, the most convincing display is not the inner feeling but the outer manifestations. 

it’s a tough one to answer, for sure. When you know, you know (and that’s why I said it is hard to describe, most people will think I’m crazy and so on 😜). There is no objective evidence possible for 1st person experience. Sometimes if we’re lucky our teacher can corroborate the validity of such things, but that implies there must be faith/trust in the teacher. All spiritual work relies on foundational faith — one cannot progress without it. 

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Between two data points, there are many connecting stories that can be told. I've never really been comfortable with drawing conclusions, only letting the experience stand for itself, but it is interesting to see which connections people like to draw. Another example is the Daoist Dan tians, the various chakras systems, Tibetan Buddhism, etc. Many people presume one or more of these are "true," but it seems to me whatever one you cultivate will be the true one manifesting physical and psychological effects. Not because that is how the body is set up, but more due to the malleability of the world. And yet malleability only goes so far, as I doubt you can just invent a made-up system and have it work. A paradox. 

For sure, how we view/understand phenomena is influenced by our background (cultural filters). These are called categorical frameworks — what you subscribe to, grew up on, and made an agreement (involuntary or voluntary) to use these (whatever those might be) as your lenses with which to interact with the world (including spirituality). It might be possible that what I saw as Krishna, someone might see as the Buddha, someone else might see as Jesus or something else. But it might not be either. In my experience they are “real” on the level of the universal mind (collective subconsciousness). 
 

Of course this is still all at the relative level (there is not a single relative level, but layers of relativity). 

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

One interesting thing is the distinction between veridical and non-veridical out of body experiences. Near death, there are strong reports of people observing things their body could not detect. Typical non-near death OBE procedures, however, usually fail to uncover actual data, such as the ability to correctly read an obscured card. Personally, I don't think in any case is anyone leaving their body, because the body is not the container. Rather, it would seem closer to describe these as shifts in consciousness. 

 

I’ve had experiences like NDE/OBE, and have first hand accounts of similar experiences by others.
 

If we think of life as an immersive VR game, death is then the logging out from the game. Consciousness withdrawn from the avatar, which allowed during the period of game playing the ability to spin up and interact in a virtual world through the VR avatar interface. 

[old3bob]

how could (normal) death be logging out when it is connected at the hip to (normal) life?  While Self Realization is beyond both...

[awaken]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Very good  

Who experienced true emptiness? 

 

當你體驗過無幻境之後，你就會知道什麼是幻境。

當你在幻境當中的時候，你很難覺察什麼是幻境，特別是當你相信幻境不是幻境的時候，你更難走出幻境。

 

幻境與真景沒那麼容易分辨。

老師確實重要。

但是一個老師去證明學生的幻境是真實的。如果是我遇到這種老師，我會盡快遠離他。

因為他將學生導向了一個信仰而非實修的道路。

 

When you have experienced the non-illusion, you will know what the illusion is.

When you are in an illusion, it is difficult for you to perceive what an illusion is, especially when you believe that the illusion is not an illusion, it is even more difficult for you to get out of the illusion.

Fantasy and reality are not so easy to distinguish.

Teachers are really important.

But a teacher goes to prove the student's fantasy is real. If I meet this kind of teacher, I will stay away from him as soon as possible.

Because he leads his students to a path of faith rather than practice.

 

神佛不是不存在。但不會存在於幻境之中。

而這是現在大多數人遇到的最大問題。

將幻境中的集體意識當作是真正的神佛。

 

Gods and Buddhas do not exist. But not in fantasy.

And that's the biggest problem most people have right now.

Think of the collective consciousness in the illusion as the real god.

 

中文裡面的神有兩種意思，當講到修煉當中的神的時候，會使用英文字shen。

當講到神格化的神的時候，會使用gods。

事實上這兩個字在中文是同一個字。

這不是衍生使用，也不是誤用。

而是一個道家修煉的定義。

必須經過神的轉化，才能產生神。

Shen in Chinese has two meanings. When talking about Shen in cultivation, the English word shen is used.

When talking about a deified god, gods are used.

In fact, these two characters are the same in Chinese.

This is not a derivative use, nor is it a misuse.

It is a definition of Taoist cultivation.

Shen must be transformed in order to produce God.

 

換言之，在神尚未轉化之前所出現的，都是顛倒夢想。

這些都是五臟陰氣所導致的幻境。

不可信以為真。

如果一個老師真的練到該練的程度，他不會將學生的幻境當作是真實的。而讓學生去相信幻境當中的神是真實的神。

 

In other words, what appeared before Shen was transformed was an upside-down dream.

These are all illusions caused by the yin qi of the five internal organs.

Unbelievable.

If a teacher is really practicing to the extent that he should, he will not take the illusion of the students as real. And let the students believe that the god in the illusion is the real god.

[dwai]

50 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

當你體驗過無幻境之後，你就會知道什麼是幻境。

當你在幻境當中的時候，你很難覺察什麼是幻境，特別是當你相信幻境不是幻境的時候，你更難走出幻境。

 

幻境與真景沒那麼容易分辨。

老師確實重要。

但是一個老師去證明學生的幻境是真實的。如果是我遇到這種老師，我會盡快遠離他。

因為他將學生導向了一個信仰而非實修的道路。

 

When you have experienced the non-illusion, you will know what the illusion is.

When you are in an illusion, it is difficult for you to perceive what an illusion is, especially when you believe that the illusion is not an illusion, it is even more difficult for you to get out of the illusion.

Fantasy and reality are not so easy to distinguish.

Teachers are really important.

But a teacher goes to prove the student's fantasy is real. If I meet this kind of teacher, I will stay away from him as soon as possible.

Because he leads his students to a path of faith rather than practice.

 

神佛不是不存在。但不會存在於幻境之中。

而這是現在大多數人遇到的最大問題。

將幻境中的集體意識當作是真正的神佛。

 

Gods and Buddhas do not exist. But not in fantasy.

And that's the biggest problem most people have right now.

Think of the collective consciousness in the illusion as the real god.

 

中文裡面的神有兩種意思，當講到修煉當中的神的時候，會使用英文字shen。

當講到神格化的神的時候，會使用gods。

事實上這兩個字在中文是同一個字。

這不是衍生使用，也不是誤用。

而是一個道家修煉的定義。

必須經過神的轉化，才能產生神。

Shen in Chinese has two meanings. When talking about Shen in cultivation, the English word shen is used.

When talking about a deified god, gods are used.

In fact, these two characters are the same in Chinese.

This is not a derivative use, nor is it a misuse.

It is a definition of Taoist cultivation.

Shen must be transformed in order to produce God.

 

換言之，在神尚未轉化之前所出現的，都是顛倒夢想。

這些都是五臟陰氣所導致的幻境。

不可信以為真。

如果一個老師真的練到該練的程度，他不會將學生的幻境當作是真實的。而讓學生去相信幻境當中的神是真實的神。

 

In other words, what appeared before Shen was transformed was an upside-down dream.

These are all illusions caused by the yin qi of the five internal organs.

Unbelievable.

If a teacher is really practicing to the extent that he should, he will not take the illusion of the students as real. And let the students believe that the god in the illusion is the real god.

You have a very elaborate and complex worldview. The truth is that there is only consciousness/awareness — everything else is an appearance within it. 
 

There IS no illusion apart from the reality (awareness/consciousness) - samsara is nirvana, form is void, void is form. Stop cogitating and agitating, instead simply turn back to your true nature. Who you are is not a sage teacher, nor a Dan dao expert, not even a person. You are the source itself — as is everyone else  

[BigSkyDiamond]

On 4/3/2022 at 4:07 PM, Lairg said:

Many places of pilgrimage are power points - where humans can have trans-human experiences.

Some have very specific functions such as "the hill with its back to Ireland" on Iona.

 

I would be interested to hear more about Iona and this site mentioned.  I visited Iona about 27 years ago and it felt signficiant but I was never quite sure how or in what way.  I remember crawling inside a small cave at low tide and lying inside there for awhile, it felt wonderful.  And I loved all the pink granite.

[Lairg]

Traditionally St Columba left Ireland and Iona was where he landed - hence the naming of the hill with its back to Ireland.  

 

The important spiritual and human sites of Iona fit nicely on to the geometric Tree of Life.  The most populated areas are on the lower part of the Tree

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:10 AM by Lairg

[Nungali]

When you spend the night sleeping in a power center /  vortice / sacred site   it can 're-arrange '  your life  .... and your resultant artworks;

 

 

 

 

one even made it onto our currency ;

 

 

Ainsley Roberts ... he wasn't really going anywhere , seemed to suffer depression and general malaise  about life. he became a little annoying to those around him  and a couple of them chipped in and sent him on a holiday up north . He was pretty much the same up there until someone took pity on him, took him out for a horse ride and decided to sleep  inside a  sacred site .  

 

“Palka Karrinya”

 

 

 

 

 

" The Palka Karrinya is situated at the entrance to a large gorge which is a sacred site that has been a focal point for ancient Aboriginal ceremony, still practised to this day. Central Mount Wedge is situated in the arid Western Desert of the Northern Territory and is approximately plum centre in the middle of Australia. The white explorer Peter Warburton came here in 1873 and his camels refused to enter the gorge to drink water.

 

 " From a Taoist perspective, all the horizontal strata of the rocks in the gorge and the red colour would create a very potent masculine Yang chi. Conversely the sole vertical shard, due to its vertical Yin orientation and the yin water in the rock pool next to it, would concentrate, by virtue of polarity, a powerful Yin feminine force. 

 

" 

Ainslie Roberts visited Palka Karrinya in 1956 on a tour of the sacred sites of Central Australia with Charles Mountford, who had an deep interest in Aboriginal art and culture. Charles was recording the rock art while Ainslie wished to retell the Aboriginal myths in painting, drawing and photography. Of all the sacred places that Ainslie Roberts visited in Central Australia, Palka Karrinya had the most profound influence. He believed that Universal archetypes manifested through myths and could be channelled by the artist. Mountford felt the original spirit of the land could be accessed through the ceremonies, art and myths of the Aborigines and glimpses of ancient powers and histories as old as time itself could be experienced. They used the services of an Aboriginal guide called One Pound Jimmy who currently features on the Aussie $2 coin

Ainslie went on to take up full time painting and the first book of his paintings of traditional indigenous beliefs and practises called ‘The Dreaming’ was published in 1965 and it helped to fill the abyss that existed between the general Australian public and the rich and ancient cultural heritage of Australia."

 

https://www.veniceclayartists.com/outback-art-inner-centre-centre/

[BigSkyDiamond]

48 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Traditionally St Columba left Ireland and Iona was where he landed - hence the naming of the hill with its back to Ireland.  

 

The important spiritual and human sites of Iona fit nicely on to the geometric Tree of Life.  The most populated areas are on the lower part of the Tree

 

I had not ever thought of mapping physical sites with the Tree of Life.  For the map shown below, with people at say village of Baile Mor and the Abbey, would the upper parts of the tree then be towards Colmuba's Bay and the Quarry, at the bottom of this map (southern tip of the island)?  I am trying to visualize it.  Then I can try and match where the small cave was that i liked so much.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:55 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

I was relying too  much on memory.  The Tree runs more or less North to South

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:05 AM by Lairg

[BigSkyDiamond]

20 minutes ago, Lairg said:

The Tree runs more or less North to South

Thank you.  I will now review further  the parts of Iona where I spent the most time, and felt the greatest affinity 

Edited yesterday at 01:23 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

I remember when i visited Peru a few decades ago, how important towns or areas were laid out in the shape and form of a sacred animal, including key buildings corresponding with power centers in the anatomy of the animal .  Cusco was laid out in the shape of a puma (with the temple Sachsayhuaman built in the head of the puma).  And the Machu Picchu complex was laid out in the shape of a condor with spread wings.  This took my breath away, then and now.

[Lairg]

For five  years I would spend  a week at each solstice on Iona - near Dun I

 

Once I saw the setting sun with flat sides.  It was a duodecahedron - the simplest regular solid formed by 12 intersecting planes/energies

 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

45 minutes ago, Lairg said:

For five  years I would spend  a week at each solstice on Iona - near Dun I

 

how fortunate you are!  that sounds idyllic

[Nungali]

Bora Ring

The song is gone; the dance
is secret with the dancers in the earth,
the ritual useless, and the tribal story
lost in an alien tale.

Only the grass stands up
to mark the dancing-ring; the apple-gums
posture and mime a past corroboree,
murmur a broken chant.

The hunter is gone; the spear
is splintered underground; the painted bodies
a dream the world breathed sleeping and forgot.
The nomad feet are still.

Only the rider's heart
halts at a sightless shadow, an unsaid word
that fastens in the blood of the ancient curse,
the fear as old as Cain.

 

- Judith Wright.

 

Analysis (ai): The poem reflects on the loss of an indigenous culture and its rituals, which are now only hinted at through the enduring landscape. It depicts the disappearance of the song, dance, and story, leaving only remnants like the grass marking the dancing ring and apple-gums mimicking the corroboree. The hunter, spear, and painted bodies are all gone, their memory reduced to a dream.

The poem echoes other works by Judith Wright that explore similar themes of loss and cultural displacement. It is representative of the post-colonial era, where the impact of European colonization on indigenous cultures was deeply felt and reflected in literature and art. By capturing the remnants of a lost culture through evocative imagery, the poem serves as a reminder of the fragility and resilience of human traditions. (hide)

 

Analysis ( Nungali ) : Not really,  and dated information .  It is not ALL memory reduced to a dream . During the time Judith writes of, the tradition survived underground , yes a lot was lost , but a lot is coming back again .  I am sure many Daobums have seen at least film of some Aboriginal ceremony and painted bodies, and some of them still hunt and spear , some even make stone tools and use them , I have seen it and also posted video here of it . 

 

We still have Bora rings and some are still 'active ' . 

 

 

 

You are not supposed to enter them .....   

 

But they hold the 'memory' of what has gone on in them before , one can imagine how it was done in the old days ...

 

The deep drone of the music, the rhythm of the sticks and the stamping feet , the high wailing singing ...

 

the entrance 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

( These images are in the public domain  - already published )  

 

song;

 

The other types of power centers  here have various purposes ; the energy of the Bora ring is suitable for initiation ,  other places for birth, often pools . There is one near my place , in some areas they are common .  Other centers  are for 'travel'  that are more like 'vortices'    and seem to relate to fire energy or at least lightening   and  connect underground through quartz seams .   We have one here up on the back ridge . It all links together with 'lines' . 

 

Once an indigenous elder staying here 'mapped' it for me - verbally . Interesting as he had not been here before , had arrived after sunset and come straight inside . Later he sat on the floor closed his eyes and described the environment energetically ,  which also coincided with the the physical landscape .