Buddha "Don't worship anything". Buddhists "With folded hands I turn to you". Me "Huh?".

[steve]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I kind of agree ... but I'm not sure if you can actually use the ego to weaken the ego ... I see it more about just admitting that there's 'something' greater than you (ego) as I see the refuge assembly to be illustrative of the continuum of buddha-nature.  It's like you've come across the Holy Grail in the woods and you cannot help but bow before it because it is so ... awesome (there I used that dreadful word).

 

 

 

I get that.

I also get a sense of the repetitive, sometimes abstract, deferential, or tedious activity causing a bit of a conflict with the identity that has other things to do or the one who doesn’t really identify with this foreign cultural indulgence… The one who rebels, the busy and important person, all these different personas come out to complain, to argue, and I begin to see how arbitrary, hollow, fragmented, and unimportant they, I,  all seem to be. The central sense of an individual loosens. Hard to express it well…

[Nintendao]

What about giving someone a hug? Is that also an empty prostration programmed into an indulgent culture? Sometimes, sadly, it may be just that. I can see how that could make someone uncomfortable. Often though, it is a genuine circulation of love, or any number of other energies. I can see how that is also sometimes uncomfortable. Even if not uncomfortable but just confused, curious, or condescended.

 

As for the larger concern, offering actual prayers for liberation and of  "Praise to Buddha Shakyamuni," quoted below for reference. Does a baby worship its mother when it receives sustenance from her? An interesting point of view.

 

Quote

O Blessed One, Shakyamuni Buddha
Precious treasury of compassion,
Bestower of supreme inner peace,

You, who love all beings without exception,
Are the source of happiness and goodness;
And you guide us to the liberating path.

Your body is a wishfulfilling jewel,
Your speech is supreme, purifying nectar,
And your mind is refuge for all living beings.

With folded hands I turn to you,
Supreme unchanging friend,
I request from the depths of my heart:

Please give me the light of your wisdom
To dispel the darkness of my mind
And to heal my mental continuum.

Please nourish me with your goodness,
That I in turn may nourish all beings
With an unceasing banquet of delight.

Through your compassionate intention,
Your blessings and virtuous deeds,
And my strong wish to rely upon you,

May all suffering quickly cease
And all happiness and joy be fulfilled;
And may holy Dharma flourish for evermore.

- Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche

 

^{https://www.xavier.edu/jesuitresource/online-resources/prayer-index/buddhist-prayers}

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Nintendao

[Nungali]

On 02/11/2021 at 9:10 AM, Seeking said:

As the title says really. I went to a couple of Buddhist meetings and none of them could answer why they do this. Its in direct contradiction to their founders wishes and yet, they do. Stranger still was they prickled at me pointing it out. I know what you're going to say "Its a token of respect" etc but really its just worship/deification in another form.

 

Its odd because out of all of the spiritual paths I'd thought that they would have had the most self awareness. Given the nature of their day to day it seems like a given. Guess not. If you do, why? Do you see the cult of personality that surrounds this guy and his achievements, much like every other prophet, when he didn't want that at all. From what I can tell (and my knowledge of Buddhism could fit on the back of a stamp) his aim was liberation. Pure and simple. The rest is mere commentary. The devout however seem to tie themselves up in knots over pointless things or sit there spinning empty wheels thinking they're getting somewhere. I found it quite odd and didn't go back again. Prefer my solo practice.

 

In many ways people try to make Buddhism a religion , its human nature, we dont seem to be able to help it .  The same with Buddha himself , he has been deified , worshipped, idolised , etc . 

 

really , he should be approached more like Socrates or Plato - a philosopher of the mind teaching practices . But his  area of operation was very exoteric  and 'out there'  -    meaning, people there where immersed in a society that saw everything as religious and magical  and  the associated practices where open explored  in public .   Maybe they and many people nowadays have difficulty putting it in a context that is not religious .

 

And they didnt like that pointed out to them ?   Really  ?   .....   

 

A word on worship . Its a great practice as long as it is  consciously understood as part of invocation  and it is supposed to be directed towards a 'force' (  a 'God' one wants to evoke  so as to incorporate a articular energy into your psyche .  ) But  in magic this is said to be a dangerous practice for the unprepared ; the magician may loose himself in it as it is powerful .

 

Eg. Instead of the magician  convincing all the other parts of himself that a particular God force is real and  he is receiving the qualities of that God , he might start actually believing that himself .  Its like the difference  of practising certain Hare Krishna beliefs  to becoming some sort of mindless devotee that only ever has an interest or operation in that area . Eventually that can blind one  to lead to obsession or fanaticism . 

[Nungali]

On 02/11/2021 at 12:42 PM, Seeking said:

Yes, it does seem that way. It struck me as strange because Buddha transcended all of that and forged his own path. The story I'd heard (maybe apocryphal, I haven't researched) was that his "Don't worship anything" statement was an admonishment to those who were seeing him as more than them. If you wish to be like he do as he did, no more no less. This simple truth seems to go over the heads of the devout is virtually every faith I've noticed.

 

I think most founders of the religions would be shocked to see the manifestations that came out of their teachings .

 

 

 

On 02/11/2021 at 12:42 PM, Seeking said:

 

Thought I'd ask on here as there seem to be a few Buddhists here. The reception at the meetings to this question was quite frosty though. You'd have thought I just flipped the tables over or something. Even the not joining in that part seemed to irk them, although it was hidden under a layer of faux tolerance but you could see they were miffed.

 

Then  you should have done a Jesus ; flipped the tables over and scourged them from their temple ! 

 

Actually, I am interested to read if any Buddhists here can defend this action .... not   my suggestion just then     but the actions you describe in your first post .

 

On 02/11/2021 at 12:42 PM, Seeking said:

 

There's something about the West. It just renders everything artificial whether it intends to or not. I do agree about what you said with the language as it shapes our minds, which influence our behaviour, which dictates our life. You see it with anything it imports from East be it food, forms, norms or inspiration - it "McDonaldizes" it into something simplistic and derivative with the subtle complexity removed to create mass appeal. And yet in all this time its never birthed a wholly new or original system since the days of Alchemy and even that came from Egypt. 

 

Yes. The west is esoteric , spiritual knowledge is occult , hidden , obscured by clouds , materialised and commercialised .

 

Hmmmm ... struggling to think of something significant  or some system that DID come  from the West .

 

Sumer and Babylon  seeded a lot of things that came afterwards .  Zoroastrianism came from Central Asia.  Judaism  from Middle east .  A whole range of major stuff from India and China . Baha'i from Persia .  Greek religions seem developed from Egypt and influenced by migrations from further east .

 

I know  !    I know  what a big huge thing the east developed  ...... the Roman Empire !

 

 

[Nungali]

On 03/11/2021 at 6:30 AM, Eduardo said:

Dhammapada

Chapter 8: Thousands

 

107. "Although for a century a man performed the rite of fire in the forest, if he for a single moment he honored an enlightened one, this reverence is better than the sacrifice of fire for a century"

 

Other translations

 

107. "Though for a hundred years one should tend the sacrificial fire in the forest, yet if only for a moment one should worship those of perfected minds, that worship is indeed better than a century of sacrifice"

 

The meaning of the verb to adore or it is only to revere, the Buddha will have used a literary figure destined to extol the teachings of the dharma and its exponents, the enlightened ones, or it must be understood literally. I am not the one to solve that question.

 

In the mind of the Westerner (perhaps cellular memory) the teaching "You will not have other gods in front of me" is always installed, and the Enlightened One is clearly not the Judeo-Christian God and any change to another religion or set of beliefs will trigger strong internals resistances.

 

 

Yes, good, you bought up the issue of translation .   What word was translated as  worship , and what else could that word mean .

 

In my tradition it is specific  (and in English - thank God ! )  . One is admonished never to 'bend the knee'  in sublimation  but as a practice in  adoration (as a part of ' magical technology' ) it is acceptable  .

[Nungali]

On 21/11/2021 at 1:50 AM, johndoe2012 said:

I think this link is inline with your thinking

 

https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Buddha-tell-people-to-worship-him

 

 

 

Excellent . The devotee follows the teacher first and his teachings second . The magician practices the techniques that the teacher used  and developed .

 

" Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts ( ie. methods)  than the words of those who attain it. "

 

" Super-consciousnes of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.

Therefore, by employing the quintessence of known methods we cause the world to progress."

[old3bob]

Any real master can and will give temporary (or in the short run) help to students (and even so called strangers),  but in the longer run they will see to it that people become self-reliant because by leaning on him or her they remain children or worse!  Btw, Jesus rejected being put on a pedestal... 

Edited November 29, 2021 by old3bob

[Nungali]

On 22/11/2021 at 10:07 AM, Apech said:

 

 

He can't - he is 'Steve on the internet' - and that's that.

 

 

 

Magic cat casts a spell and imprisons him forever .

 

[Nungali]

On 22/11/2021 at 10:36 AM, Apech said:

 

I kind of agree ... but I'm not sure if you can actually use the ego to weaken the ego ... I see it more about just admitting that there's 'something' greater than you (ego) as I see the refuge assembly to be illustrative of the continuum of buddha-nature.  It's like you've come across the Holy Grail in the woods and you cannot help but bow before it because it is so ... awesome (there I used that dreadful word).

 

 

 

I think there are two types of bow .

 

 

One is a peasant grovelling before his superior .

 

The other is making a mudra (triangle with fingers and thumbs ) , placing that on the ground , putting your 'eye in the triangle '  ( 'earthing your third eye'  ) .

 

Try it with that intent  folks  .... I found the results rather  interesting .

[Mark Foote]

In the speeches recorded close to his death, Gautama said:

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?
 

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. As to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world."

(Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108; Rhys Davids’ “body, feelings, moods, and ideas”, above, rendered by Horner in her translations of the Majjhima Nikaya as “body, feelings, mind, and mental states”)
 

As it turns out, Gautama had a distinct version of the mindfulness he described above, that was his own way of living.  After an incident in which a lot of monks "took the knife" because he had recommended meditation on "the unlovely (aspects of the body)", he taught the remaining monks his own practice of mindfulness in sixteen elements, and said:

"… if cultivated and made much of, (the mindfulness in sixteen elements) is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too."

(SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society SN V pg 285)

The point I'm making is that Gautama, at least in his later years, emphasized the "setting up" of mindfulness, and that's what he put forward as being "a lamp unto (oneself)" before he died.  

The fifteenth element of the mindfulness that made up Gautama's way of living was:
 

[One] trains [oneself], thinking: ‘I will breathe in… breathe out beholding stopping [cessation].’

(MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III pg 124; parentheticals added)
 

I hope I make the case in The Early Record that the cessation that was a part of Gautama's way of living was the cessation of "determinate thought" in the action of the body, that is to say, the cessation of habitual or volitive action of the body.  That's not the "cessation of [determinate thought in] perception and feeling", the cessation that was synonymous with Gautama's enlightenment.

I do believe that what passes for enlightenment these days is mostly the mindfulness that includes breathing in or breathing out beholding cessation (of habitual or volitive action of the body).  That would have been Gautama's way of living, particularly in the rainy season (or so he said).

The final element of the sixteen was:

[One] trains [oneself], thinking: ‘I will breathe in… breathe out beholding casting away.
 

(MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III pg 124)
 

"Casting away" would be the relinquishment of the notion of a self associated with the body, with feelings, with the mind, with habitual tendencies, or with mental states.

I agree with Apech, when he said "It's like you've come across the Holy Grail in the woods and you cannot help but bow before it because it is so ... awesome."  Here is a real and verifiable path, to lay down “latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body” in the course of everyday living, and to reorient beliefs and assumptions to the mind that has no home:
 

Let the mind be present without an abode.

 

(Diamond Sutra, translation Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from “The Rabbit’s Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra”, Buddha’s Light Publishing pg. 60)

I'm ok with bowing, maybe I should also shake my head in disbelief that we could be so lucky.
 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mark Foote

[Seeking]

On 11/29/2021 at 7:17 PM, Nungali said:

 

In many ways people try to make Buddhism a religion , its human nature, we dont seem to be able to help it .  The same with Buddha himself , he has been deified , worshipped, idolised , etc . 

 

really , he should be approached more like Socrates or Plato - a philosopher of the mind teaching practices . But his  area of operation was very exoteric  and 'out there'  -    meaning, people there where immersed in a society that saw everything as religious and magical  and  the associated practices where open explored  in public .   Maybe they and many people nowadays have difficulty putting it in a context that is not religious .

 

And they didnt like that pointed out to them ?   Really  ?   .....   

 

A word on worship . Its a great practice as long as it is  consciously understood as part of invocation  and it is supposed to be directed towards a 'force' (  a 'God' one wants to evoke  so as to incorporate a articular energy into your psyche .  ) But  in magic this is said to be a dangerous practice for the unprepared ; the magician may loose himself in it as it is powerful .

 

Eg. Instead of the magician  convincing all the other parts of himself that a particular God force is real and  he is receiving the qualities of that God , he might start actually believing that himself .  Its like the difference  of practising certain Hare Krishna beliefs  to becoming some sort of mindless devotee that only ever has an interest or operation in that area . Eventually that can blind one  to lead to obsession or fanaticism . 

 

Yes, exactly. From what I see of Buddha he was very much attempting to get people to make the leap from mensch to ubermensch by thinking for themselves aka "Do the works I do and greater by being you" and instead people want to walk around looking like a straight up mess within but with a cutout Buddha face they wear as a mask. Who are they trying to fool? The circle jerk echo chambers congratulate each other on their fakeness as they buy into each others pretense and this is evidenced by the simple fact that none of the supposed "followers" have ever reached enlightenment or anything close to the insight and impact of the one they try and emulate.

 

My intent was purely to question the ritualism, the contradiction, the surface level understanding of the obviously profound realizations of which he speaks. Later I came to realize that describing enlightenment and the steps required to get there is akin to instructing a blind paraplegic how to dance into the sunset. They simply lack the frame of reference but good on old Buddsy for giving it a pop as some us get his drift and stroll along the way via the guidance of our own inner glow.

 

On 12/4/2021 at 12:56 AM, Mark Foote said:

In the speeches recorded close to his death, Gautama said:

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves.

 

Nothing more needs to be said. This quote reflects my intent perfectly as you can't borrow anothers light and the plan is to make your own by recognizing your own glow ergo none is high nor low. Feel me?

[Seeking]

On 11/21/2021 at 11:45 PM, freeform said:

All religious paths have an outer ‘common’ face and a hidden ‘inner’ face.

 

The common folk use worship, prayers and mantras as means of generating favour, luck or some sort of gain (in merit, in spiritual growth, a better rebirth etc).

 

The hidden aspect of ‘worship’ is internal… meaning that one isn’t actually worshiping something outside of themselves - but they do use an outer form as a means to generate a state of deep inner humility which opens up the space necessary to allow the divine aspect  of themselves to arise. This is what Buddha or Guan Yin or some other deity represents - a divine quality within.

 

Observing these two approaches will look the same to an onlooker… ritual respect - whether its bowing or lighting incense or some other ritual. But what’s happening on the inside is very different.

 

Its worth knowing that what you think you see is also subject to the outer and the inner form of seeing  

 

Beautiful, this is exactly it. The difference between listening and hearing. I feel that I hear whilst those who inspired this thread did listen and weren't aware of the difference between sitting out the outer gate or actually making an entrance to the temple, only to find yourself seated within, waiting saying "Glad to make your acquaintance" and then the next spiral begins.

[Mark Foote]

On 11/29/2021 at 12:00 PM, Nungali said:

 

... The devotee follows the teacher first and his teachings second . The magician practices the techniques that the teacher used  and developed .

 

" Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts ( ie. methods)  than the words of those who attain it. "

 

" Super-consciousnes of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.

Therefore, by employing the quintessence of known methods we cause the world to progress."

Nungali, I'm wondering what you are quoting from?

Along the same lines:

"The internal develops the ch’i; the external develops the sinews, bones, and skin."

(“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, translated by Douglas Wile, 1st ed p 39)

One route to freedom:

"With this method of circulating ch’i (Tai Chi), it overflows into the sinews, reaches the bone marrow, fills the diaphragm, and manifests in the skin and hair."

(Ibid, p 17)

My explanation of the above:

"Here’s the way I understand the four stages: “sinews” are tendons that connect muscle to bone, as opposed to ligaments that connect bone to bone, but the words are used interchangeably in the classics–“overflows into the sinews” describes the effect of singularity in the location of consciousness on the stretch of ligaments; “reaches the bone marrow” captures the role of placement of the bones and gravity in reciprocal activity; “fills the diaphragm” refers to the tight connection between balanced stretch and activity around the abdominal cavity and the free movement of the diaphragm; “manifests in the skin and hair” concerns the arrival of a heightened ability to feel dermatomes, as a consequence of the relaxed nerve exits from the sacrum and spine provided by an even stretch of ligaments."

That quote, and much more on activity of the body generated by the stretch of ligaments, here.