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dindin

Where do I begin? Newbie? Looking for paths which help to ground mind in body and reality

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As title suggests. I am new to qigong and daoism. So don't know which paths are right for me. How things are structured in it. I am mostly looking for practices which build basics and foundation. Aid in keeping mind in reality. And centered.

 

Recently I am having increased troubles with anxiety, irritability, anger and hostility. I was hoping qigong practices can help in managing these and other mental health problems.

 

Basically I want to know about practices helpful and safe for people with mental illness.

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Posted (edited)

Hello, Sir.

 

I too have anxiety, very strong anger and hostility to people. 

 

There are very "dark" thoughts, so to say.

 

For example, when I have anger, my eyebrows are itching very much.

 

Eyebrows are of the Liver and Anger is in the Liver.

 

People with strong eyebrows tend to be angry more.

 

They can withstand anger more.

 

I have a question for You.

 

Why do You think Qigong and Daoism will help You?

 

I think this is a good start to answer this question.

 

To clear the Delusions.

 

Edit: I was once to the Accupunturist. The issues, he said, are in the very being of the self. Not in the Qi. Maybe he was a charlatan, but the idea is quite interesting. :D

 

Be well.

AL.

Edited by Indiken

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33 minutes ago, Indiken said:

People with strong eyebrows tend to be angry more.

 

I don't know what you actually mean by this but I do have thick eyebrows.

 

41 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Why do You think Qigong and Daoism will help You?

 

I am not sure it will. Or if it is even safe for person like me. My first post was flagged by mods becasue it seemed disturbing to them. When I followed upon reason why it was not approved mod told me so and approved within few days. When my post become finally live it got replies mentioning starting on foundations and focusing on grounding practices and staying away from "powerful" stuff.

 

Another aspect of it is that Qigong and Daoism tend to more secular and agnostic. They include both practice and philosophy. I find philosophy of which is more aligned with Buddhism which is devoid of theistic assumptions. They don't seem as dogmatic when compared with traditional yoga system I have seen.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dindin said:

 

I don't know what you actually mean by this but I do have thick eyebrows.

 

Everything I say is only my opinion, so be careful.

 

I mean that it is natural for You to be angry. Contact sports are a good way to use this anger fruitfully.

 

You see, every organ in the human body has an "opening" in the face, which shows the state of the organ. The thick eyebrows, I think, means that your state of the liver is good and healthy. I know one good book about this in english. This healthy liver can experience strong anger. It desires anger, so to speak. I know people who have thin and greyish eyebrowns. Theirs anger is quite pathetic and they feel tired after easily. 

 

I am not a doctor, but earlier when I searched for answers, I did amateurishly practice accupresure. There are various points in the meridians. My experience is that they can alleviate Your condition, but not solve it. The problems are not in Qi I think. If there are "problems", so to speak, these problems are deep in the self. 

 

Quote

 

I am not sure it will. Or if it is even safe for person like me. My first post was flagged by mods becasue it seemed disturbing to them. When I followed upon reason why it was not approved mod told me so and approved within few days. When my post become finally live it got replies mentioning starting on foundations and focusing on grounding practices and staying away from "powerful" stuff.

 

I am quite ignorant, so You have to take my words with caution. I did not try these things. But everyone is speaking from their perspective, so to say. It might be that they do not really understand what is going on with You. Nor do I. Everyone is unique, although have has the same basic makeup.

 

Quote

Another aspect of it is that Qigong and Daoism tend to more secular and agnostic. They include both practice and philosophy. I find philosophy of which is more aligned with Buddhism which is devoid of theistic assumptions. They don't seem as dogmatic when compared with traditional yoga system I have seen.

 

I did need to view the definition of agnostic. So be cautios. :D In other forum I just threw everything "bad" I had openly. People responded very gently. I thought, that this way I will "remove" unwanted things. And guess what, these things I do worry about did not dissapear. 

 

I realized, that what I fear, keep repressed and running away from, in reality, I want it to happen. What a relief. For example I fear criticism, but deep inside I want people to criticise me. Strange huh?

 

Life is not "safe" by my definition and is risky in essence. I think to try any of the esoteric traditions is risky. Even in Qigong an injury can occur. The more with the mental disciplines of Daoism.

 

I think that all answers You need are inside Yourself.

 

Again I am newbie and young. For me writting in the forums is one of the ways to do what I feared, but wanted to do.

 

Be well.

AL.

 

 

Edited by Indiken

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3 hours ago, dindin said:

Recently I am having increased troubles with anxiety, irritability, anger and hostility. I was hoping qigong practices can help in managing these and other mental health problems.

 

Basically I want to know about practices helpful and safe for people with mental illness.

 

I wouldn't do any practice without consulting and working with a qualified teacher. Qigong can be like tossing gas onto the fire. 

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3 hours ago, dindin said:

 

Basically I want to know about practices helpful and safe for people with mental illness.

Clinically, really basic simplified short form taiji without any focus on qi has been used for decades to aid people suffering from psychotic episodes. Working with balance, gently correcting breathing patterns, using centered movement patterns and developing body awareness are key points. 

 

Avoiding sexual exercises and heavy visualisation is a good advice, as is avoiding methods where the primary objective is to activate a lot of energy. @RiverSnakeexplained why in your first thread. 

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@forestofemptiness @Cleansox

I was watching Damo Mitchell's video on Qi Gong Quackery. I have seen him and his websites recommended on this forum in several posts and for right reason. About a month ago I was going through description of his video series on MCO. In which explicitly state people with psychiatric problems should stay away from MCO practice and he mentions it was an intermediate to advanced level practice. Well back to the Qi Gong Quackery video. I haven't watched complete video yet but listened to him speaking about who should stay away from Qi Gong. One thing I liked about Damo Mitchell he is a straight shooter. There is no sugarcoating or defending of things. First group of people he mentions are those with psychiatric problems or with a troubled mind. I was saddened to know hear it. But I realized I needed to hear it from someone.

 

14 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Clinically, really basic simplified short form taiji without any focus on qi has been used for decades to aid people suffering from psychotic episodes. Working with balance, gently correcting breathing patterns, using centered movement patterns and developing body awareness are key points. 

 

Avoiding sexual exercises and heavy visualisation is a good advice, as is avoiding methods where the primary objective is to activate a lot of energy. @RiverSnakeexplained why in your first thread. 

 

I had this thought about taiji on back of my mind. Can you give me any pointers? Online resources?

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Posted (edited)

From a Buddhist perspective:

 

If you have mild anxiety, and just want a calmer, quieter mind I would recommend 10 - 20 minutes of open awareness or samatha meditation a day. This is simply resting the mind in its own still nature. This will make you calmer, and less reactive when thing happen that don't meet your expectations in everyday life.

 

If you have deeper mental illness, this pursuit may not be for you. These practices, Buddhism, Daoism, Qigong, Sufism and other non-dual systems at their CORE are intended to cause a perspective shift to a unity consciousness... this is what enlightenment is - seeing and understanding the underlying nature of reality.

The point is to transform consciousness, not attempting to  improve you experience of everyday delusion. People with mental illness often have acute resistance to this, and can make existing vulnerabilities MUCH WORSE. Much better in these cases to work on overarching psychological issues first and establish real stability, if seeing things as they truly are is desired. 

 

There is an old Zen saying:

 

"Better not to start. Once started, better to finish"

 

or a newer quote that covers it:

 

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill‚ÄĒthe story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill‚ÄĒyou stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more." - Matrix

Edited by stirling
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19 minutes ago, stirling said:

From a Buddhist perspective:

 

If you have mild anxiety, and just want a calmer, quieter mind I would recommend 10 - 20 minutes of open awareness or samatha meditation a day. This is simply resting the mind in its own still nature. This will make you calmer, and less reactive when thing happen that don't meet your expectations in everyday life.

 

If you have deeper mental illness, this pursuit may not be for you. These practices, Buddhism, Daoism, Qigong, Sufism and other non-dual systems at their CORE are intended to cause a perspective shift to a unity consciousness... this is what enlightenment is - seeing and understanding the underlying nature of reality.

The point is to transform consciousness, not attempting to  improve you experience of everyday delusion. People with mental illness often have acute resistance to this, and can make existing vulnerabilities MUCH WORSE. Much better in these cases to work on overarching psychological issues first and establish real stability, if seeing things as they truly are is desired. 

 

There is an old Zen saying:

 

"Better not to start. Once started, better to finish"

 

or a newer quote that covers it:

 

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill‚ÄĒthe story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill‚ÄĒyou stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more." - Matrix

 

How do Buddhists explain mental illness?

 

Be well.

AL.

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54 minutes ago, dindin said:

@forestofemptiness @Cleansox

 

I had this thought about taiji on back of my mind. Can you give me any pointers? Online resources?

I mentioned Paul Lam taichi for arthritis in a thread a couple of days ago. The reason I know about it is that a person I did some clinical research with a couple of years ago was trained in that method. But she also has 40 years of experience with psychiatric health care, as a physiotherapeut, so she understood how to use it for different patient groups. 

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24 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

How do Buddhists explain mental illness?

 

I'm not sure there is a "party line" on that one, but if I had to take a stab at it I'd say that it is dualistic misinterpretation of thought and body sensation. Awakening is the sudden understanding there is only sensation appearing and disappearing. Even our thoughts are like this, being unreal due to their purely conceptual nature.

 

Enlightenment is the understanding that time, space, self and other have never been real as we understood them. There is a unity present that has no parts... no facets, or separatenesses. It is one consciousness, one whole, one moment. Nothing in this moment is ever other than just as it should be. There is, then, a natural complete surrender to things as they are. 

 

Mental illness is seemingly the resistance to what is happening and our elaborately crenelated defenses against having our worst projections of the future be true. Sometimes those defenses are so elaborate and apparently real that the mind can get lost in them, and deep patterns develop that are hard to deconstruct. This is where mental health professionals are recommended... but note that these practices WERE the mental health practices available in the East for thousands of years, though they might not be considered the easiest route today.

 

Speaking solely for myself, before insight I had diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder (which I took medication for) which would come and go day to day. I have not had anxiety since that day. How this would present in someone with schizophrenia I can't say for sure... I don't know anyone with a more serious mental illness that has awakened.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I'm not sure there is a "party line" on that one, but if I had to take a stab at it I'd say that it is dualistic misinterpretation of thought and body sensation. Awakening is the sudden understanding there is only sensation appearing and disappearing. Even our thoughts are like this, being unreal due to their purely conceptual nature.

It is a pity. I think it is simply a shortcut, shall I say, to ignore the problem.

 

Enlightenment is the understanding that time, space, self and other have never been real as we understood them. There is a unity present that has no parts... no facets, or separatenesses. It is one consciousness, one whole, one moment. Nothing in this moment is ever other than just as it should be. There is, then, a natural complete surrender to things as they are. 
How can one know Enlightenment if one is not Enlightened? Then the Enlightened person would be very immoral and unsocial as per definition. When he got the thought to hurt, he would hurt instantly, without remorse. I think it is very dangerious to surrender to things as they are, so to say. 

 

Mental illness is seemingly the resistance to what is happening and our elaborately crenelated defenses against having our worst projections of the future be true. Sometimes those defenses are so elaborate and apparently real that the mind can get lost in them, and deep patterns develop that are hard to deconstruct. This is where mental health professionals are recommended... but note that these practices WERE the mental health practices available in the East for thousands of years, though they might not be considered the easiest route today.

Yet why the resistance occurs? What to do if one has no trust in people, how then to approach a profesional?

 

Speaking solely for myself, before insight I had diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder (which I took medication for) which would come and go day to day. I have not had anxiety since that day. How this would present in someone with schizophrenia I can't say for sure... I don't know anyone with a more serious mental illness that has awakened.

It is quite hard for me to say this, but I too I am taking the medication. And to me it looks that it is useless. To explain all complexities with lack of seratonin is foolish to me, to say the least. Then is the question why this substance is lacking.

 

 

Thank You, Sir.

I share with You my perspective.

Edited by Indiken

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Posted (edited)
Quote

It is a pity. I think it is simply a shortcut, shall I say, to ignore the problem.

 

It's actually realizing that there never WAS a problem, or that there have never been "shortcuts".

 

Quote

How can one know Enlightenment if one is not Enlightened? Then the Enlightened person would be very immoral and unsocial as per definition. When he got the thought to hurt, he would hurt instantly, without remorse.

 

A competent teacher with understanding can demonstrate what is being pointed out. In Tibetan traditions this is called an "introduction to the nature of mind". Conceptually an enlightened person could be considered "amoral" EXCEPT that the very understanding of enlightenment actually engenders a sort kindness and compassion that is beyond what normally arises in a typical person. Hurting and killing are highly unlikely from this perspective. I'm not sure where you are gathering your information from, but it certainly doesn't match my experiences of people with deep insight.. 

 

Quote

Yet why the resistance occurs? What to do if one has no trust in people, how then to approach a profesional?

 

Resistance happens because we believe we are in control of what is happening, or we attempt to resist things that have ALREADY happened. If you lose some money from your pocket you get angry... but why? It has already happened... your anger can change nothing. It is your resistance to the reality of your loss. The problem becomes that there is no acceptance of the reality of things as they are. Our projections about how we want the future to be, or wish the past had been are is the predominant form of suffering for most people. If you need help from others you HAVE to trust at some point. 

 

Quote

It is quite hard for me to say this, but I too I am taking the medication. And to me it looks that it is useless. To explain all complexities with lack of seratonin is foolish to me, to say the least. Then is the question why this substance is lacking.

 

Why do you resist wanting to say it? Because it damages your image of yourself, right? This is the source of much of our suffering. Realize - that is not an image that I have of you, and whether or not you need help from medication has no bearing on how I see you. You create the image, and then your suffering based on your resistance to your reality. I agree that your serotonin level is probably not the entirety of your problem. This is where counseling helps. You begin to see what it is that you torture yourself with and that much of it isn't based in reality.

Edited by stirling

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Posted (edited)

Here is an exercise, for the OP, don't do it for anymore than 5 minutes a day, for the first 7 months, the process of working through the issues in your system will likely be painful (uncomfortable releases). Once things "gently open", you can go deeper. If you'd like any personal assistance to help smooth out and accelerate healing, you can PM me ($).    

 

 

 

Edited by RiverSnake
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

It's actually realizing that there never WAS a problem, or that there have never been "shortcuts".

I did not understand. I am sorry. There are infinite number of problems. There are no problems. Two sides of the same coin. Choose which You like.

 

A competent teacher with understanding can demonstrate what is being pointed out. In Tibetan traditions this is called an "introduction to the nature of mind". Conceptually an enlightened person could be considered "amoral" EXCEPT that the very understanding of enlightenment actually engenders a sort kindness and compassion that is beyond what normally arises in a typical person. Hurting and killing are highly unlikely from this perspective. I'm not sure where you are gathering your information from, but it certainly doesn't match my experiences of people with deep insight.

I search for him, the Teacher. But the more I search, the more I realize, that the only Teacher is the self. The otherself provides the necesary experience for the self. I did not I say I have deep insight. For me there are no "deep" insights, so to speak. It is only an image one use in one reality to be. I can say You many things. For example what are the lights that regulary apear when I sleep and goes straight to my soul and modifies what is needed. I am visited since childhood. Many people are visited. Can You explain this? Do You have an open heart enough to accept this? Ask Your teacher about this. It is "real" as real is this letter I do write. I learn from experience. I too experienced the great compassion couple of times. At those times I am not a human anymore, I am just consciousness in the head, fully impersonal. At these times times I have a huge desire to call people around as "children" with huge compassion in my heart. Earlier I feared these states, now I think that this is manifestation of advancement, so to speak. This could be a mental illness of course. But I like to think it is not.

 

Resistance happens because we believe we are in control of what is happening, or we attempt to resist things that have ALREADY happened. If you lose some money from your pocket you get angry... but why? It has already happened... your anger can change nothing. It is your resistance to the reality of your loss. The problem becomes that there is no acceptance of the reality of things as they are. Our projections about how we want the future to be, or wish the past had been are is the predominant form of suffering for most people. If you need help from others you HAVE to trust at some point. 

From my perspective suffering and not suffering are the same. People choose what they like for the advancement to realize.

 

Why do you resist wanting to say it? Because it damages your image of yourself, right? This is the source of much of our suffering. Realize - that is not an image that I have of you, and whether or not you need help from medication has no bearing on how I see you. You create the image, and then your suffering based on your resistance to your reality. I agree that your serotonin level is probably not the entirety of your problem. This is where counseling helps. You begin to see what it is that you torture yourself with and that much of it isn't based in reality.

This is the hardest to answer. The questions gives this paragraph the weight. Why is a good question to ask. Yes it does damage. The image I strive is - humble, sincere, helpfull, smart, generous, respectfull, NORMAL. All because that people would accept me, because they did not accept me as myself. In other words real me does not fit in the reality. I see I even do not fit here. Try or not try the same happens. People behave not the way I like them to behave. Once my university professor said that "I am not of this world". Painfull it was. Yes I create the image. Why I do create this image? Can You answer, Sir?

 

 

Thank You, Sir.

I cannot resist to offer my perspective again.

 

Be well.

AL.

Edited by Indiken

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5 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

How do Buddhists explain mental illness?

 

Be well.

AL.

 

Mental illness, like everything else, arises from causes and conditions. Mental illness is largely seen as a brain/body problem, IME. So when you are in the bardos between lives, for example there is no mental illness. It is a product of the brain/body. 

 

I'm not saying mentally ill people cannot meditate. I'm just saying it needs to be done with a teacher (actually, any of this should be done with a teacher). There was a member here who had meditation induced mental illness who used Taoist techniques to overcome them. But she did it with a teacher. There are other people who are mentally ill who meditate as well. 

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Posted (edited)

Thank You, Sir.

 

I am Sorry, but I do not find any substance in the material You did provide Dindin.

 

By substance I mean the mechanical and objective view of the what can be called "illness".

 

I think reasons are not important, but I desire more substance like this:

 

Questioner: How does an individual go about balancing himself? What is the first step?

Ra: I am Ra. The steps are only one; that is, an understanding of the energy centers which make up the mind/body/spirit complex. This understanding may be briefly summarized as follows:

The first balancing is of the Malkuth, or Earth, vibratory energy complex, called the red-ray complex. An understanding and acceptance of this energy is fundamental.

The next energy complex which may be blocked is the emotional or personal complex, also known as the orange-ray complex. This blockage will often demonstrate itself as personal eccentricities or distortions with regard to self-conscious understanding or acceptance of self.

The third blockage resembles most closely that which you have called ego. It is the yellow-ray or solar plexus center. Blockages in this center will often manifest as distortions towards power, manipulation, and other social behaviors concerning those close and those associated with the mind/body/spirit complex.

Those with blockages in these first three energy centers, or nexi, will have continuing difficulties in ability to further their seeking of the Law of One.

The center of heart, or green ray, is the center from which third-density beings may springboard, shall we say, towards infinite intelligence. Blockages in this area may manifest as difficulties in expressing what you may call universal love or compassion.

The blue-ray center of energy streaming is the center which, for the first time, is outgoing as well as inpouring. Those blocked in this area may have difficulty in grasping the spirit/mind complexes of its own entity and further difficulty in expressing such understandings of self. Entities blocked in this area may have difficulties in accepting communication from other mind/body/spirit complexes.

The next center is the pineal or indigo-ray center. Those blocked in this center may experience a lessening of the influx of intelligent energy due to manifestations which appear as unworthiness. This is that of which you spoke. As you can see, this is but one of many distortions due to the several points of energy influx into the mind/body/spirit complex. The indigo-ray balancing is quite central to the type of work which revolves about the spirit complex, which has its influx then into the transformation or transmutation of third density to fourth density, it being the energy center receiving the least-distorted outpourings of love/light from intelligent energy and having also the potential for the key to the gateway of intelligent infinity.

The remaining center of energy influx is simply the total expression of the entity‚Äôs vibratory complex of mind, body, and spirit. It is as it will be, ‚Äúbalanced‚ÄĚ or ‚Äúimbalanced‚ÄĚ has no meaning at this energy level, for it gives and takes in its own balance. Whatever the distortion may be, it cannot be manipulated as can the others and, therefore, has no particular importance in viewing the balancing of an entity.

 

Be well.

AL.

Edited by Indiken

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Indiken said:

I did not understand. I am sorry. There are infinite number of problems. There are no problems. Two sides of the same coin. Choose which You like.

 

How are they two sides of the same coin? My experience is that the coin HAS no sides. 

 

When the mind is quiet and empty, there ARE no problems. It is worth investigating how that is possible.

 

Quote

I search for him, the Teacher. But the more I search, the more I realize, that the only Teacher is the self. The otherself provides the necesary experience for the self. I did not I say I have deep insight. For me there are no "deep" insights, so to speak. It is only an image one use in one reality to be. I can say You many things. For example what are the lights that regulary apear when I sleep and goes straight to my soul and modifies what is needed. I am visited since childhood. Many people are visited. Can You explain this? Do You have an open heart enough to accept this? Ask Your teacher about this. It is "real" as real is this letter I do write. I learn from experience. I too experienced the great compassion couple of times. At those times I am not a human anymore, I am just consciousness in the head, fully impersonal. At these times times I have a huge desire to call people around as "children" with huge compassion in my heart. Earlier I feared these states, now I think that this is manifestation of advancement, so to speak. This could be a mental illness of course. But I like to think it is not.

 

It is absolutely true that what is needed is always present if there is the ability to see it and listen to it. The value of a teacher is that they know the terrain and can directly point to what you are looking for. Supernatural phenomenon are as real as any other phenomena, which is to say they are inherently dreamlike. I have had many as well, and in no way discount them. 

 

When you have experienced being "just consciousness", are there still problems? Who is present during the experiencing? 

 

Quote

 

This is the hardest to answer. The questions gives this paragraph the weight. Why is a good question to ask. Yes it does damage. The image I strive is - humble, sincere, helpfull, smart, generous, respectfull, NORMAL. All because that people would accept me, because they did not accept me as myself. In other words real me does not fit in the reality. I see I even do not fit here. Try or not try the same happens. People behave not the way I like them to behave. Once my university professor said that "I am not of this world". Painfull it was. Yes I create the image. Why I do create this image? Can You answer, Sir?

 

 

 

 

You seem humble, sincere, etc. to ME. I do notice a hardened set of ideas. It feels like you ask questions, but aren't interested in the answers if they don't agree with your ideas. This could be my imagination. I fully understand the feeling of not belonging. I never felt I belonged anywhere, UNTIL I realized that I had always belonged everywhere. Why does your apparent image in the world get created? The short answer is that it is created by how you push against the world. You get what you expect, and what you expect is rejection. If you truly believed that the world loved you, and approached it this way, how would it appear to you? It is worth an experiment. 

 

While you appear defensive, and don't seem that interested in other opinions, I do not see you in the negative ways you describe yourself. If you are here for help, and ask for it, you will find it granted - but you must be brave enough to ask. If you aren't here for help, but are here to validate your opinions you will be disappointed. The world has never been, and will never be what we think it is, or should be. :) 

 

Deep bows to you.

Edited by stirling

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Questioner: How does an individual go about balancing himself? What is the first step?

 

The mind is like a jar of muddy water. Our thoughts take over our daily life. The voice of our thinking mind tells us we are stupid, unlikable, lazy, arrogant, etc. etc. We are confused, taken for a ride by the voice of our thoughts, suspicious, paranoid, afraid to be vulnerable. This muddiness causes our anxiety, fear, anger, and most intensely our deluded ideas about how things really are. 

 

Underneath this mind is a quiet, still awareness. This awareness, that is always present and never changes is what we really are. It is a joy to rest in, because we have never been apart from it. It has always been there.

 

If we allow the mind to rest in this awareness through meditation practice, the mud in the muddy jar settles, the water clarifies, the mind is relaxed, joyful and clear. 

 

Repeatedly bringing the mind back home, to this awareness eventually makes it the predominant way of being. Commit to sitting in meditation 40 minutes a day or so. Learn to bring the mind back to this awareness once or more an hour, and keep increasing the amount of time the mind rests in it. It helps to have someone familiar with the awareness show it to you, so you know what you are looking for. At some point there is insight and understanding of what this mind really is - a permanent shift.

 

These are ALL of the steps.

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34 minutes ago, stirling said:

How are they two sides of the same coin? My experience is that the coin HAS no sides. 

Ok. Experience is undeniable, in my opinion. :D 

 

When the mind is quiet and empty, there ARE no problems. It is worth investigating how that is possible.

I do not know how to achieve this. 

 

It is absolutely true that what is needed is always present if there is the ability to see it and listen to it. The value of a teacher is that they know the terrain and can directly point to what you are looking for.

Is the teacher who asks money a teacher I should listen to?

 

Supernatural phenomenon are as real as any other phenomena, which is to say they are inherently dreamlike. I have had many as well, and in no way discount them. 

They are not all dreamlike. An UFO craft in the daylight when playing basketball with a friend. Both see the same. Classical flying saucer. Then blinking stars straight above myself and my Mom and 45 degrees in the sky. Both see the same.

 

When you have experienced being "just consciousness", are there still problems? Who is present during the experiencing? 

No. The body and mind seems to be peripherical and foreign, so to say. Myself. Walking in the open with a friend. After reading metaphysical book about allien phenomena. 

 

You seem humble, sincere, etc. to ME.

I am this way. This needs to be refined, in my opinion, because humbleness is only one side of the picture.

 

I do notice a hardened set of ideas.

Yes. I am Capricorn. Very Capricornish. :D

 

It feels like you ask questions, but aren't interested in the answers if they don't agree with your ideas.

Yes. This way I do strengthen my perspective.

 

This could be my imagination.

No.

 

I fully understand the feeling of not belonging. I never felt I belonged anywhere, UNTIL I realized that I had always belonged everywhere.

I do want experience both belonging and not belonging.

 

Why does your apparent image in the world get created? The short answer is that it is created by how you push against the world. You get what you expect, and what you expect is rejection.

Yes, I do want do be rejected. Why do people do not reject me? 

 

If you truly believed that the world loved you, and approached it this way, how would it appear to you? It is worth an experiment.

I feel to much shame. I need more experience to reach this conclusion.

 

While you appear defensive, and don't seem that interested in other opinions, I do not see you in the negative ways you describe yourself. If you are here for help, and ask for it, you will find it granted - but you must be brave enough to ask.

I do beg for constructive criticism with my posts. To ask for help is a huge undertaking.

 

If you aren't here for help, but are here to validate your opinions you will be disappointed. The world has never been, and will never be what we think it is, or should be. :) 
But I do validate my opinions.

 

Deep bows to you.

I have mixed feelings about this. :D

 

Thank You, Sir.

I think, You should not answer anymore to me. Because I will not stop to answer You soon. :D

 

Be well.

AL.

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On 4/14/2021 at 11:12 AM, Indiken said:

I think, You should not answer anymore to me. Because I will not stop to answer You soon. :D

 

Ooops.... I am apparently still answering you!

 

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Ok. Experience is undeniable, in my opinion.

 

Sensation, empty of our interpretation is all there is. Phenomena appear and disappear experiencing. The flashing metal boxes we think we are measuring our reality with are mere abstractions, their measurements often bear no relation to what is sensed. Can anyone find the marvel of the first star appearing at twilight in such a device? 

 

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I do not know how to achieve this. 

 

You can't... it arises when all of the supposed achieving ceases. It actually happens to you all of the time. You are INTIMATELY familiar with it. IT is actually ALWAYS there. It is your thoughts that are adding something that isn't there to your experiencing. It really helps to have someone show you where to look in person. Where are you located? Somewhere in Europe, I would guess? Maybe I (or someone else here) could help find you someone who could show you in person.

 

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Is the teacher who asks money a teacher I should listen to?

 

If you feel should pay for it, perhaps. I personally don't think you should need to, unless you feel motivated to support the organization, or facilities used by the teacher. What you are asking for is free and has always been your true nature.

 

 

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They are not all dreamlike. An UFO craft in the daylight when playing basketball with a friend. Both see the same. Classical flying saucer. Then blinking stars straight above myself and my Mom and 45 degrees in the sky. Both see the same.

 

Even waking experiences are dreamlike, which is not to say they are a dream exactly. How often do you explain away your missing keys that you saw a moment ago on the table, or hearing the voice of a friend or loved one when no-one is there, never mind ghosts, time distortion, etc. Waking experience is actually the deepest level of duality, so, perhaps, the deepest dreaming. 

 

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No. The body and mind seems to be peripherical and foreign, so to say. Myself. Walking in the open with a friend. After reading metaphysical book about allien phenomena. 

 

No-self = No problem. The mind works to find problems... to compare and contrast. Without it churning away, things are simply as they are.

 

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"To a hammer everything is a nail, to the problem solver, everything is a problem." - Frank Heile

 

The mind and body are constructs of the self, and how you are used to imagining the world. The objects of your experience don't go anywhere, there is just the simple dropping away of constructed self in the silence of being. 

 

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I am this way. This needs to be refined, in my opinion, because humbleness is only one side of the picture.

 

If you can construct a kind, but fearless sincerity you are on the right track. The willingness to surrender the idea that you must know everything frees up a lot of baggage. 

 

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Yes. I am Capricorn. Very Capricornish.

 

Would you believe that this is actually just another hardened idea? Ideas like this pre-limit how we interact with the world.

 

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This way I do strengthen my perspective.

 

 

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‚ÄúIn the beginner‚Äôs mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert‚Äôs there are few‚ÄĚ-¬†¬†Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind

 

 

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I do want experience both belonging and not belonging.

 

I believe we ALL do. You belong here, now. 

 

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Yes, I do want do be rejected. Why do people do not reject me?

 

Some of the people here seem to be good at seeing things as they are... or COMPASSION - being with what is.

 

 

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I feel to much shame. I need more experience to reach this conclusion.

 

Why not work on that experience today?

 

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I do beg for constructive criticism with my posts. To ask for help is a huge undertaking.

 

Help is here the moment you ask for it. Why not close your eyes for a moment, turn away from the computer and say something like, "I don't know what to do. I need and am open to help. Please help me."

 

If you can wait and watch, if you are open to help EVEN IF it isn't how you want to be helped, it will be there.

 

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But I do validate my opinions.

 

 

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You have never had a thought that was true - Adyashanti

 

Deep bows to you... again. :D

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