Deep breathing practices

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Guys,

 

Im at work (hospital) and asked the nurse what would happen if you slowed your breathing down to 1 breath per minute or 3 breaths per minute and he said that anything under the normal rate starves the body of oxygen and you have too much carbone which is not good for the brain.

 

So my question is what are the benifits of the very deep breathing of the Yoga and old daoist masters? Does slow breathing hurt you like modern science says?

 

Is it true or false?

 

WYG

[joeblast]

If your body starts to feel starved for oxygen, your brain will increase the heart rate and force you to want to breathe. There's a general acceptable range of respiration rates that will be compatible with your current metabolic rate. You cant just all of a sudden slow your breathing to a great extent, you have to work towards it, ease yourself there. If your internal environment isnt right, then you will only be able to slow your breath rate so much, might not be as much as you're shooting for...

 

Tension inhibits qi flow. The most profound meditative moments I've experienced have been where there is no movement, in between inspiration and expiration.

 

Its all a matter of what your body can handle in its given state! She was probably speaking of average joe that doesnt meditate. For someone that has spent years working on meditative breath, its aint the same ballpark...aint even the same sport, in a way

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Joe,

 

For instance i can do 4 breaths per minute pretty easy that is what i usually do during a normal sitting between 3-4 but i tried 2 breaths per minute and was able to do it without much discomfort OR any to be honest it was just more concerntrated rather then natural.

 

So what would be the major benifits of this type of breathing?

 

WYG

[Cameron]

From my understanding, your breaths per minute slows down naturally with meditation. It's not something you force at all should just be the natural result of deep relaxation and abdominal breathing.

 

One thing might probably have to do with it is the average Joe is an upper chest, fast breather while the qigong student learns to sink the qi and breathe into the belly(not literally but the diaphragm becomes a big part of it, massaging the internal organs with each abdominal breath).

 

One of the ways Ken Cohen says to measure your progress in his book is to count your breaths during standing meditation. Count 60 breaths while holding a standing posture. In the beginning, 60 breaths takes about 5 minutes. After a few months of training your breath gets slower and 60 breaths might take 15-20 minutes!!

[joeblast]

You can 'guide' your breaths longer, but you cant force them. When it gets to the point of forcing, then you are trying to extend beyond your limits and it will soon have the opposite effect on your respiration and heart rates.

 

To really relax with your breath, you need to relax as much as possible. Try this: inhale, but put emphasis on your nose, feel the air rush through it. Now try again, this time put emphasis on your sinuses, listen to the turbulence created by the speed of the air as well as the slight muscular contracts that produce the effect. Try again with the back of your throat, then your trachea, then bronchi, then lungs...then diaphragm. Get a sense of what muscles & tendons you are using in each aspect, familiarize yourself with them. Then do the opposite; you will know exactly what you need to relax to achieve a truly calm, slender, yet full breath.

 

The most relaxing breathing I have done is just a dantien breath - start out the session by taking some very deep breaths, exhale fully to make sure you are emptying any areas of the lungs that may have some stagnant air in them. Then relax and begin to slow your breathing, work your way through relaxing each of the components above until you are just using the dantien and diaphragm to breathe. It will probably take a little while before you can let go of the diaphragm and only breathe with your dantien. By the time you do that, you should have 30 second breaths easily. There is no turbulence in any of your air passageways. An aid for this is simply a good pair of earplugs - it brings you very much in tune with your breath and you can hear turbulence in the breath much more noticeably.

 

When I worked on this in the past, hitting consistent 30-40 second breaths in meditation has actually increased my metabolic rate in the coming days after the fact. At 30 seconds I can feel qi much more strongly, beginning to feel qi sort of glowing around me, then as I've progressed its grown to a sphere around me - by that time I havent even felt as if I was breathing any longer...that's the point where you are simply respirating...

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Yes, guide is a better word then forcing and i totally agree with Cameron on the proper type of meditation will put you into stillness and you dont even know if you are breathing or not its as doing as non doing.

 

Thanks for your responses im looking at what the slow breathing does for oneself apart health and relaxation is this where yoga call Siddah (i dont know if thats the correct spelling or word). Just trying to study up on things and thought i would ask!!!

 

WYG

 

Have you guys ever had deep tiny little breaths during deep meditation or felt like its only small breaths but in a relaxed way. Hard to explain!!!

[Fire Dragon]

Hello

 

During my experiences with the white tigress system I did a meditaion with slow breath. The meditaion was to concentrate on a point behind the eyes, as the tird eye but behind the eyes. After some weeks I could see a flacing light there. The point is cald original cavity and ancestors hall and more names. When doing this you start to breath more and more slow breaths. First an inhalation during 12 hart beats. Then when managing this wery well an inhalation during 36 heart beats. Quite dificult and I never manage more than 9 such breaths. After this u increase stepwise to over 1000 heartbeats during an inhalation and at last you not breath at all.

 

It is possible to slow down the breath at unbelivable slow phase if you have the capability to breath chi instead. This is my conclusion. Interesting phenomena.

 

F D

[mwight]

The goal of deep breathing practice is to slow your metabolism down. Your body goes into hibernation. You do not require as much oxygen as you used too.

 

The goal should be to feel completely comfortable breathing only a few times per minute, if it is not comfortable your body has not shut down.

 

I would not worry about hypoxia, unless your forcing your breath to be less than your body is telling you it requires.

[林愛偉]

Everyone's wisdom on this is great.

 

In meditation the whole body becomes less active, as does the mind. As a result, less maintanence needed, therefore breathing wouldn't be needed.

 

If modern science's "idea" that breathing less results in more carbon in the body, then these great masters in Yoga, Buddha and Daoist schools must be totally crazy, and wrong. I'll stick to those great masters and leave modern science in the closet...lol

 

Peace,

Lin

[Daeluin]

I like understanding this similar to breathing during sleep. When I wake up here in there in the middle of a deep sleep, I find my breathing is much slower than it was when I'd just laid down. My body is also very relaxed, so that the oxygen and qi I breathe in has an easier pathway to reach all my cells.

 

In meditation it is the same. I can't just use concentration to slow my breath - after a few minutes I notice the need to take a couple bigger breaths. But if I concentrate on opening up and relaxing every part of my body except my lungs (and even them), letting my bones hold me up, it is better. In a sense letting go of the hold I have over my body, my control over it, so that I may replenish it. Like how in sleep my focus is in dreams and has let go of my body completely.

 

I think more than I practice, but when I do practice it can sometimes feel as though I understand how one might breathe without using the lungs. Maybe.

[sheng zhen]

If modern science's "idea" that breathing less results in more carbon in the body, then these great masters in Yoga, Buddha and Daoist schools must be totally crazy, and wrong.

...and hallucinating or dead

 

Science has actually confirmed that meditation gives us better circulation especially in the periferal parts, better oxygen uptake, better metabolism, more blood through the brain, etc. etc. We need less air, but the air we get is used a lot better in meditation than not. EVERYTHING in the body works better when we are meditating.

 

If a scientist or doctor says otherwise it is just because he is not to up to date with the research he relies on

 

If the science community, the doctors and health authorities has really been up to date with the research being done on meditation, they would have more than enough documentation to make it a mandatory part of ANY treatment.

[freeform]

I agree with sheng zhen,

 

Is your nurse really the authority on modern scientific research?

 

There has been a lot of research on the benefits of carbon dioxide - the uptake of oxygen is regulated by the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood... Apparently there is an effect at a certain concentration of carbon dioxide that activates many more cells than 'normal' to take up more oxygen directly.

 

Look up Buteyko and Frolov for related research...

[松永道]

What your nurse is not taking into account are the other very obvious physical effects of deep breathing.

 

First, deep breathing massages the body interior. Filling up the lungs, expanding the diaphragm squeezes the internal organs. Squeezing and relaxing brings circulation to these areas. These means more oxygen going into these tissues and more waste products coming out.

 

Second, not every breath is created equal. Short shallow breaths bring less oxygen into your system than long deep ones. It's a fact. Why? Our lungs are made up of little bags called alveoli and alveoli are connected to capillaries. This is the interface for gas exchange. Gas exchange works via osmosis. So the more in your lungs the more oxygen entering into your blood stream. Combine this with the dual benefit of having a higher concentration of carbon dioxide and other waste gases in our bloodstream (from the improved circulation) and even more fresh oxygen enters and more waste gases out!

 

Now with shallow breaths you barely get any benefit to blood circulation meaning gas exchange is less efficient. And you're not even filling up your lungs meaning the lower depths of your lungs don't participate in gas exchange at all! Relaxed deep breathing will with practice lead to full use of the lungs. Obviously 3 regular puny breaths a minute would achieve the opposite of deep breathing and starve the body.

 

Oxygen is without a doubt our most important energy source. Food metabolism doesn't take place without it. There are more factors at work here but this is pretty much the gist of it. Your nurse doesn't understand the process.

 

 

 

Hi Guys,

 

Im at work (hospital) and asked the nurse what would happen if you slowed your breathing down to 1 breath per minute or 3 breaths per minute and he said that anything under the normal rate starves the body of oxygen and you have too much carbone which is not good for the brain.

 

So my question is what are the benifits of the very deep breathing of the Yoga and old daoist masters? Does slow breathing hurt you like modern science says?

 

Is it true or false?

 

WYG

Edited March 9, 2008 by 松永道

[Jakara]

I agree with sheng zhen,

 

Is your nurse really the authority on modern scientific research?

 

There has been a lot of research on the benefits of carbon dioxide - the uptake of oxygen is regulated by the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood... Apparently there is an effect at a certain concentration of carbon dioxide that activates many more cells than 'normal' to take up more oxygen directly.

 

Look up Buteyko and Frolov for related research...

 

 

I'm glad you made this point we can't really say that one person's opinion represents the whole view of the modern scientific community. I doubt the nurse in question had a thorough understanding of the topic.

 

Of course if you were going about a daily life which required plenty of oxygen (like an athelete might) then forcibly slowing your intake down wouldn't be healthy. But if we are sitting in meditation our bodies require less oxygen so there is no problem in gently slowing the rhythm of breathing down accordingly.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

So if the metabolism speeds up that means meditation can help you loose weight?>

 

Hmm must breath deeper....hehehehe

 

Thanks guys

[voidisyinyang]

I recommend reading about "Immortal Breathing" -- chapter 10 of "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality"

 

Essentially the breath is electrochemical while the chi is electromagnetic but consciousness enables breath to be converted FROM chi -- so you actually breathe through the conversion of electromagnetic energy. the whole body fills with electromagnetic bliss and the center of the hands and feet pulse as electromagnetic breathing while the brain produces water -- through reverse electrolysis -- that pores down the roof of the mouth. That's how samadhi works -- no need for water, nor food, nor sleep, and in deep levels you go past death.

[lotusbud]

The lungs are bacically shaped like cones or pyramids pointing upwards. Every tiny bit they expand downwards their capacity is increased by quite a lot. I find it a fantastic guide to how much tension is in my body (and mind).

 

Has anyone mentioned the skin?

[voidisyinyang]

Well I guess I did:

 

the center of the hands and feet pulse as electromagnetic breathing

[松永道]

I recommend reading about "Immortal Breathing" -- chapter 10 of "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality"

 

Essentially the breath is electrochemical while the chi is electromagnetic but consciousness enables breath to be converted FROM chi -- so you actually breathe through the conversion of electromagnetic energy. the whole body fills with electromagnetic bliss and the center of the hands and feet pulse as electromagnetic breathing while the brain produces water -- through reverse electrolysis -- that pores down the roof of the mouth. That's how samadhi works -- no need for water, nor food, nor sleep, and in deep levels you go past death.

 

Hey Drew, you have a lot of interesting hypotheses on understanding the alchemical body in terms of western scientific mechanisms. I'm studying in China now and I haven't the money to buy or time to read a lot of books right now. But I'm wondering, aside from Taoist Yoga, are there any other books you'd recommend on western physiology coming to understand esoteric practice? I've read a few, "The Tao of Natural Breathing" comes to mind, but I've also run into too many new age books that make pretty fantastic claims (like stimulating DNA, regenerating telomeres, activating "junk" DNA, etc) which, true or not, are not corroborated by any research whatsoever. They just seem to be buzz words to dazzle laymen and make a few more bucks.

 

As for metabolism, more efficient gas exchange and circulation doesn't mean faster overall body metabolism. Meditation, qigong, taiji, etc all, over time, slow the metabolism. The whole idea of fast metabolism being a good thing is relatively new in human history. A person with fast metabolism is basically like a car that gets terrible gas mileage. Sure it usually leads to a thin body, which we've deemed attractive, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Today's fatties were yesterday's hotties and thin tan folks were peasants. However it's natural that we are attracted fast metabolisms these days, in a way, they are an adaptation to our culture of excess.

 

It stands to reason that deep breathing, by way of restoring proper circulation would speed up metabolic function at first. And it's not uncommon to see new, sincere meditators sweating it out. But once the area is opened up the accumulated waste from poor circulation can be cleared away. And when the waste is gone, the tissues can become more efficient and metabolism slows. This is my theory anyway. I know Wang Liping does fine on a small piece of tofu every so often and other practiced meditators don't eat anything at all. Mainstream science doesn't understand the mechanism yet, and certainly neither do I.

 

But there are some theories anyhow.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

There is a guy that lives off sun gazing and just drinks alittle water from time to time!

 

http://www.solarhealing.com/sungazing.htm

[voidisyinyang]

Well there's my blogbook -- http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com plus all my comments there.

 

Basically the issue is that the slower the nerve pulse frequency of electrochemical energy the faster or stronger is the time amplitude expansion of the proton-electron magnetic momentum (what's considered conscious observation in science). That's why Taoist Yoga says NO SALT -- because this increases the potassium ratio, slowing down the electrochemical nerve pulse. You get enough sodium just from vegetables, as Paul Bragg taught as well.

 

When I practiced Taoist Yoga while getting the energy from qigong master Chunyi Lin I followed that No Salt diet. The electromagnetic fields were so strong that I stopped practicing for several months and starting reading one book a day -- that was 7 years ago. I still read a book a day and slowly am building my practice back up while trying to mainstream it.

 

Anyway western science is based on deduction -- not logical inference -- so ever since Galileo and Descartes time is measured as geometric distance and is relative to the technology of measurement. Einstein expanded this concept but what is left out is the concept of time as pure number -- not tied to geometry -- but something we listen to as complementary opposites. That's what Taoism relies on -- the source of our thoughts is pure consciousness which is formless, not defined as time as geometry or amplitude, neither frequency (which is just number again based per distance measurement).

 

So in Western science this difference in time is called "phase shift" or "refractive index" -- phase shift to what?

 

The Tai-Chi symbol is the "phase shift" of reality -- it's an asymmetric sine-wave of complementary opposites so the energy naturally resonates back to its source when proper form is practiced.

 

Tai Chi form, small universe form, full-lotus form, etc.

 

Science is destroying the ecology and social harmony of the planet. It's part of a larger complementary opposite cycle -- whereby only pure consciousness is true harmony. This is why

 

No One can Know the Tao

 

we can listen to it and it exists as an eternal process that we are part of.

 

Here we go -- construction worker buried alive uses Buddhist deep breathing to slow down his use of air....

 

5 minutes of air lasted 2 hours!!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811

 

OK so the math -- normal person: 20 breaths per minute. So 5 minutes of air equals 100 breaths. 1 breath a minute for deep meditation for 5 minutes equals almost 100 minutes -- almost 120 minutes of normal breathing -- so the dude was breathing less than once a minute....!!!

Edited March 10, 2008 by drew hempel

[mwight]

Well there's my blogbook -- http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com plus all my comments there.

 

Basically the issue is that the slower the nerve pulse frequency of electrochemical energy the faster or stronger is the time amplitude expansion of the proton-electron magnetic momentum (what's considered conscious observation in science). That's why Taoist Yoga says NO SALT -- because this increases the potassium ratio, slowing down the electrochemical nerve pulse. You get enough sodium just from vegetables, as Paul Bragg taught as well.

 

When I practiced Taoist Yoga while getting the energy from qigong master Chunyi Lin I followed that No Salt diet. The electromagnetic fields were so strong that I stopped practicing for several months and starting reading one book a day -- that was 7 years ago. I still read a book a day and slowly am building my practice back up while trying to mainstream it.

 

Anyway western science is based on deduction -- not logical inference -- so ever since Galileo and Descartes time is measured as geometric distance and is relative to the technology of measurement. Einstein expanded this concept but what is left out is the concept of time as pure number -- not tied to geometry -- but something we listen to as complementary opposites. That's what Taoism relies on -- the source of our thoughts is pure consciousness which is formless, not defined as time as geometry or amplitude, neither frequency (which is just number again based per distance measurement).

 

So in Western science this difference in time is called "phase shift" or "refractive index" -- phase shift to what?

 

The Tai-Chi symbol is the "phase shift" of reality -- it's an asymmetric sine-wave of complementary opposites so the energy naturally resonates back to its source when proper form is practiced.

 

Tai Chi form, small universe form, full-lotus form, etc.

 

Science is destroying the ecology and social harmony of the planet. It's part of a larger complementary opposite cycle -- whereby only pure consciousness is true harmony. This is why

 

No One can Know the Tao

 

we can listen to it and it exists as an eternal process that we are part of.

 

Here we go -- construction worker buried alive uses Buddhist deep breathing to slow down his use of air....

 

5 minutes of air lasted 2 hours!!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811

 

OK so the math -- normal person: 20 breaths per minute. So 5 minutes of air equals 100 breaths. 1 breath a minute for deep meditation for 5 minutes equals almost 100 minutes -- almost 120 minutes of normal breathing -- so the dude was breathing less than once a minute....!!!

 

 

so taking just potassium chloride as a salt substitute would be beneficial?

[voidisyinyang]

According to the Straight Dope that stuff is dangerous:

 

Then I pulled out a few reports of deaths and near misses involving potassium chloride and did some math. You know what? The amount of salt substitute needed to kill somebody, or at least put him in some serious hurt, is surprisingly small. Some cases from the medical journals:

 

An infant went into cardiac arrest after being fed a mixture of grits and salt substitute by his five-year-old sibling. He was revived and eventually recovered. Amount of salt substitute in the grits (not all of which were consumed): less than a tablespoon.

A 75-year-old woman with a bad heart began using Morton Lite Salt, a mixture of potassium chloride and ordinary salt (sodium chloride), on the advice of her daughter. Within a few weeks she experienced shortness of breath and swollen ankles, and eventually she was taken to the emergency room and treated for congestive heart failure.

A woman attempted suicide by swallowing 100 potassium chloride tablets. She went into a coma and despite treatment died after two weeks. Total consumption of potassium chloride: 60 grams. Equivalent in commercial salt substitute, assuming a typical mixture of 90 percent potassium chloride: 11 teaspoons.

Another woman taking potassium chloride tablets for a medical condition began using them whenever she felt weak or tired. One evening she began suffering from diarrhea. She was told to stop taking the pills but was found dead the next morning. An autopsy revealed she'd consumed 47 tablets.

A mother, following the instructions in Adelle Davis's book Let's Have Healthy Children (1972), fed her infant about three-quarters of a teaspoon of potassium chloride mixed with her breast milk. The child stopped breathing and though rushed to the hospital died after 28 hours.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

wow, pretty scary should we all not have salt?

[voidisyinyang]

Those reports are from Potassium Chloride -- but I bet salt isn't much better. I know that if I have a high salt meal I usually am kept up as much as too much caffeine -- racing heart, high blood pressure, etc.