Why is there so much evil in the world?

[BigSkyDiamond]

59 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

logically the question of:  if everything is perfect then what unperfect is there to "escape" from per the Buddha's famous quote along that line, including suffering?  Thus I'd say it again until such an "escape" someone saying everything is perfect is a nice sounding platitude or as some call it bypassing.

 

there is awareness and observing.  of what just is.

pause.

separate from that and subsequent to that, a person may go into interpretation,  judgment opinions.  

"good and evil" are examples of judgment, opinion, interpretation.  

 

 

putting an end to something is not escaping it.  it is dissolving it.

it no longer exists.   there is no good or evil without the judgment, opinion, interpretation.

 

let's say there are conditions circumstances events people which are labeled "good" or "evil."

without those labels opinions judgment opinion there is no "good or evil."  good and evil no longer exist.

the events and circumstances still do exist.  so there is no escape.  but there is an end to the labels.  those no longer exist. 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

so with regards to the topic question asking "why is there so much evil in the world"

good and evil are opinion, belief, interpretation. they are not universal.  they are not factual.   they are not agreed upon and there is no baseline.

 

given that, if someone does not believe in "evil" then it does not exist for them.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:36 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

6 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

Yes, the 10,000 things are also perfect. 

They are just as they are, nothing missing, nothing misspelled.

Everything is just as it is when we open fully to it. 

Heaven and Earth treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs, as does the sage.

All that arises is perfected in the base, but that doesn't mean it's pleasant or meets my expectations.

The base has no bias, that is the job of my mind.

This has absolutely nothing to do with platitudes or making anyone feel better.

It's quite the opposite in fact. It means we must deal with what is, like it or not.

But perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

bold above, yes.

well put.  i agree.

[Tommy]

If one looks for it then one will find it. Seek and you will find. Look for evil and there will be evil. Look for the good and you will find the good. One's world is colored by the thoughts in one's head.

[BigSkyDiamond]

8 minutes ago, Tommy said:

If one looks for it then one will find it. Seek and you will find. Look for evil and there will be evil. Look for the good and you will find the good. One's world is colored by the thoughts in one's head.

 

yes, which is why "before thought" and "before thinking" are so delightful and so appealing.

being the big clear sky and not the passing turbulent stormy clouds.

 

(i am currently reading and adore the teachings of Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn)

Edited yesterday at 04:52 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

I am not sure perfect is the exact concept.   But it seems that the Dao wishes to achieve something by causing Existence.

If so, do humans have a useful role?  Or perhaps they are decorative

 

i'm not sure what is meant above by "existence."

 

why does there need to be a "wish to achieve" ?

being just is.

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

being just is.

 

Certainly Being is, but how does Existence occur if there is no decision?

 

Consider the Hindu concept of the Mahapralaya - the gap between the disappearance of the universe and the appearance of the next universe.

 

What decision triggers the appearance of the first universe?

 

What decision results in the removal of that universe?

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

11 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

logically the question of:  if everything is perfect then what unperfect is there to "escape" from per the Buddha's famous quote along that line, including suffering?  Thus I'd say it again until such an "escape" someone saying everything is perfect is a nice sounding platitude or as some call it bypassing.

 

 

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with things as they are.

And there is nothing wrong with our reactivity, with wanting some things to be different.

Problems arise for us when we are unable to accept things as they are but are unable to change them. 

Certainly we are free and encouraged to do what we can to change things that need to be changed but at some point we must face challenges in our lives which cannot be remediated to our satisfaction.

 

In the "everything is perfect" approach (eg. dzogchen), the method is to face these things as they are without platitudes, without resistance, but directly, with honesty and openness; the word often used in the teachings is to face them nakedly. My teacher uses the language of "hosting" our challenges or, more precisely, hosting the sense of self who is struggling; host with a sense of openness, inner quiet, and genuine caring. In the beginning this is done under controlled circumstances, like the quiet room on the cushion. Eventually we can bring this more alive in our day to day on demand. If we can be with uncomfortable and challenging things in this way, we find they eventually become less loud, less invasive, and we begin to feel some space and freedom even in their presence. We are no longer over-identifying with that sense of self who is resisting and suffering. This is liberation, not escape. The challenges are still there but no longer command our attention and direct our actions in a dysfunctional way. This allows us far more flexibility which comes from a more grounded, clear, and creative place.

 

A good example that practitioners can relate to is to look at what happens when we meditate in the presence of sounds or noise. In the beginning the noise can be very distracting. Our attention is repeatedly drawn away from openness (or whatever object of meditation we may be working with) and towards the sound, leading to thoughts and feelings that interfere with our practice. If we persevere, we become more familiar and stable and we find that the noise becomes less of a disturbance. It is still there but no longer interferes with our openness, focus, and stability. Eventually, the noise can become like fuel that strengthens our meditation, transforming from obstacle to support.

 

This is a method of facing our problems directly and nakedly, giving them the time and space they need to express themselves fully in consciousness, and the time and space they need to liberate in the spaciousness of mind. This is the opposite of bypassing, in which problems are repressed, suppressed, or ignored in favor of focusing the attention on good feelings and words. Platitudes in this context are meaningless. Problems and challenges arise for us for many reasons and they need to be seen and heard, they need the time and space to express what needs to be expressed. Equally important is that they are put in proper perspective which is the role of meditation.

 

 

 

 

 

[stirling]

@doc benway

Thank you. 

-

There is great wisdom in the good doctor's last post, despite its seeming simplicity. These are some of the deepest practices you could find anywhere, shared cleanly and openly. It is a joy to read teaching like this.

 

_/\_

[BigSkyDiamond]

9 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Certainly Being is, but how does Existence occur if there is no decision?

Consider the Hindu concept of the Mahapralaya - the gap between the disappearance of the universe and the appearance of the next universe.

What decision triggers the appearance of the first universe?

What decision results in the removal of that universe?

 

It is unclear to me what is meant by "existence" above .  Please clarify.  Thank you.

If "existence" refers to the physical universes and everything in them, then for me that is the 10,000 things.  This includes physical human beings.  That is the downstream physical byproduct of the upstream non-physical Source.    

 

What decision triggers the appearance of the first universe?

it is a passing thought.  consider a plane of reality where whatever is "thought" instantly becomes "real."  Have you ever stood on a balcony or cliff or rim of a canyon and for an instant imagined falling off?  Then you stepped back and went along on your hike and with your day.  You saw it was a bad idea and did not go there (did not fall off).    You remain unharmed and whole (whew) in your physical life, glad that it "did not really happen" though you imagined perhaps the crashing and rocks and pain and bloody bits. You wondered about it but also recognized it was not real.

 

The physical unverses and everything in them are like that. A passing thought for instance "what would it be like if there was a plane of reality so dense that i forgot the truth of who i am [unborn, unformed, unchanging, always was, always will be, no beginning, no end] and thought i was separate and even denied that Source existed" and boom instantly there was physical universe and everything in it.  or universes for those who subscribe to the multiverse variety.  

 

 

What decision results in the removal of that universe?

As long as a person is attached to the belief that separation is real (physical universe and everything in it) then they are stuck in the dream.  When we are in a dream, it feels very very real.  Systems in place such as karma keep us coming back over and over.  We also have systems (fortunately) that act as a map to shows us the exit door, the way to step off the repeated cycle of rebirth.  To step out of separation. 

 

What happens to a dream after you wake up?  well it wafts away.  and we have the sense of relief whew, that was a bad idea.  

 

let's say on the cliff you "fell into the dream" of falling off the cliff.  and that dream was a very scary dream, it felt so real.  the pain the agony the suffering.  and it kept happening over and over.  maybe you even recognized at some point hey this is a dream.  how do i get out of this dream.  wake me up.  get me out of here.

 

it's like that.  that's when we start paying attention to and taking seriously how do we step off the wheel of karma altogether.   It is called "Awakening" for a reason.

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

@doc benway

Thank you. 

-

There is great wisdom in the good doctor's last post, despite its seeming simplicity. These are some of the deepest practices you could find anywhere, shared cleanly and openly. It is a joy to read teaching like this.

_/\_

 

yes i wholeheartedly agree !

[Cobie]

 

On 07/06/2025 at 1:16 AM, doc benway said:

… characteristics of the Dao …

Dao is the Mother of us all. 

可 以 为 天 下 母  Dao can be regarded as the Mother of all under heaven. (DDJ ch. 25)

 

 

22 hours ago, doc benway said:

… I cannot treat common people as straw dogs.

 

Of course you can’t, , and a sage (being one with Dao, the Mother) cannot either. 

 

On 06/06/2025 at 11:56 PM, doc benway said:

… we must deal with what is, like it or not.

Indeed. 
 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

 

18 hours ago, Tommy said:

… One's world is colored by the thoughts in one's head.

 

Exactly. One has to become in control of one’s own thoughts.

 

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Cobie

[BigSkyDiamond]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

Exactly. One has to become in control of one’s own thoughts.

 

Yes. That means I have to take full 100% responsibility for all of my thought, speech, actions, feelings, emotions.

all of it. 

 

for me i can't think of it as "control."  but i am responsible for them.  a teacher of mine calls it "being master in your own house."

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

 

Exactly. One has to become in control of one’s own thoughts.

 

 

 

and here we have the root of  'good and evil'  , as said it is entirely subjective .

 

Although  we DO know evil when we see it .  I take it back ... right back , to some of the first 'organised' (or historical )  religious thought ;  Mainyu , often ending up in a concept of  Gods/angels  or demons and devils . In the original early Zoroastrian scripts , it meant 'quality of mind ' -   good thoughts , good words, good deeds .  It starts with the thoughts  ; bad thoughts (or 'evil thoughts', mostly in this case are based on the ideals of healthy society and accepted interactions , as that is what all 'good and bad' is based on )  engender eventually  bad actions .  later it all got externalized as 'evil'  'coming from' the influence of 'Ahriman '  and that all got mixed up later with the 'evil' 'boss of the invaders ' . 

 

But in its early form Zoroastrian was more like a 'science and yoga of the mind  and its control '  ,  much like the similar aspect in Buddhism is   (more like a 'psychological science' ) than a typical religion .  But it seems the need and trend is for people to 'externalize'  things . 

 

So control of one's thoughts is prime , but also control of the  unconscious process - this is where certain 'religious laws' come into practice . Eg, with the Zoroastrians , they were the first to make legislation against the abuse of animals .  One reason is , not only is it unkind to the animal , but by doing it you will subtly impact your own mind and psychology ... and it will not be long before that spreads and you will start abusing other people ... then yourself .  and so on . 

 

One of the most important practices is  finding  A WAY  to control the mind .  Not a way that suppresses or forces either ... as we know what that leads to . 

[doc benway]

46 minutes ago, Cobie said:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

 

 

Some might not appreciate his humor but William S. Burroughs is one of my favorite authors and this adage reminds me of a satirical excerpt from his book The Place of Dead Roads. Somehow this has stuck with me since first reading the book in the mid 80s.

 

https://genius.com/William-s-burroughs-introducing-john-stanley-hart-lyrics

[Nungali]

10 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Yes. That means I have to take full 100% responsibility for all of my thought, speech, actions, feelings, emotions.

all of it. 

 

for me i can't think of it as "control."  but i am responsible for them.  a teacher of mine calls it "being master in your own house."

 

A friend (  a woman , and here that is significant * ) has an indigenous teacher that  often speaks of  "Master of Self ' and if one tries to disrupt that by dragging her into things that do not concern her  , she  states  ; "  That's not my pineapple ."      

 

* Men's and  Women's 'business'  ( special spiritual and initiatory teachings ) is separated here in indigenous  society . 

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

Exactly. One has to become in control of one’s own thoughts.

 

In my practice, there is no attempt to control thoughts, only to be aware of them and my relationship to them.

My experience is that thoughts spontaneously arise without being invited necessarily.

I have not found it possible to select or screen them before they appear in consciousness.

What I can control is how much I engage with them, which affects how long they hang around.

I can also control what actions I take as a result but I can't really control what shows up.

I can go looking for specific trains of thought but I'm referring to those thoughts and feelings that simply show up without any particular reason or invitation.

Certainly we can cultivate mental and physical discipline and this will affect what comes up as thoughts and feelings.

On the other hand, I think it is impossible, at least for me, to control what arises in consciousness at any given moment. 

I'm curious about what it means to others to be in control of thought.

 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by doc benway

[Nungali]

I should have added above and followed on  from my post ; 

 

So where does this evil or good thought / nature come from. The 'good' us trained and  engendered by relevant initiation rites . 

 

Their basic denominator  is ;  making a wild animal  into a human social creature . Now, we are primates , and it is instinctive to us to band into our most desired groups - the extended family group - that is natural for primates and the best way to live for them .

 

But we also went through  stages of development previously and we still hold remnants of those 'mini - brains' or 'programs . They are embedded in us . Take the primal 'reptilian  consciousness ' ,  centered in the 'hind brain ' as one example . It has very limited consciousness and awareness  but a lot of influence regarding unconscious and autonomous psychological drives . 

 

The process of initiation  ( which has been going on since the advent of 'modern HSS' -  after 300,000ya. ) should be a reaching realization process  where , primarily,  the  person is taught what benefits living in and conforming with a society will give them and what individual  'base proclivities'   they might have to 'sacrifice' in order to get the social benefit . 

 

of course without a relevant system like that , one will see the opposite arise ; people will become 'ravenous beasts '  ( well, worse than that actually ! ) tearing and torturing each other . . .  inside their own group ! 

 

Just like we do today .  

[Lairg]

15 minutes ago, doc benway said:

thoughts spontaneously arise without being invited necessarily.

I have not found it possible to select or screen them before they appear in consciousness.

What I can control is how much I engage with them, which affects how long they hang around

 

 The physical, emotional and mental practices of the human tend to attract related thoughts and feelings and their associated intelligences.   This can result in long patterns of anti-social and self-destructive behavior

 

On the other hand, humans useful to the unfolding of the race and planet attract constructive images and thoughts/concepts, while simultaneously being the objects of adverse interference.

 

Thus every thought/feeling that seems out-of-context in my stream of consciousness is subjected to careful testing

 

On occasions I have been fooled but recently I have been able to go back along the timeline and make a better choice.  So far that has been successful at cleaning up the relationship mess generated by improper choices.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Lairg

[Nungali]

25 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

In my practice, there is no attempt to control thoughts, only to be aware of them and my relationship to them.

My experience is that thoughts spontaneously arise without being invited necessarily.

I have not found it possible to select or screen them before they appear in consciousness.

 

That is a job for the 'not I '    

 

Delegation Doc ... delegation !   

 

 

Quote

What I can control is how much I engage with them, which affects how long they hang around.

 

Indeed!   One might say , if you don't engage with them (on any level )  what does it matter ?   But they do work on subtle levels .

 

 

Quote

I can also control what actions I take as a result but I can't really control what shows up.

 

That's the main thing !   But by controlling the thought ... it is 'nipped in the bud' . Also there is no disharmony between thought and action . To have a thought constantly that is not acted on will still create some psychological dynamic . 

 

Quote

I can go looking for specific trains of thought but I'm referring to those thoughts and feelings that simply show up without any particular reason or invitation.

 

They are the 'special ones '    some can be bizarre  or down  right nasty .  They are surfacing from those deeper and 'other' parts of the psyche  I mentioned above . 

 

Quote

Certainly we can cultivate mental and physical discipline and this will affect what comes up as thoughts and feelings.

On the other hand, I think it is impossible, at least for me, to control what arises in consciousness at any given moment. 

I'm curious about what it means to others to be in control of thought.

 

 

It might be more difficult  to control 'arising '   but the control can  become 'less aware ' ( meaning you don't have to 'use up' or focus your awareness on it . There can be autonomous forces that can be trained to deal with this . 

 

Damn bush turkeys  !  Digging up the  garden ... I can hear them " Book ... book ... " occasionally . I go and and chase them off , but the damage is done .  If I am attentive , I hear them first ... go and  chase them off before damage is done .

 

But if I get a dog , he will hear them first and chase them off  ... and I might not even be aware that is happening . So although its arising , it isn't arising in my consciousness .

 

And after a while , turkeys  might not even come here anymore ......   " that place got that nasty dog creature ... don't bother going there . "

 

( I am sure you can interpret this in light  of my magical practices and  what I wrote about 'demons'   - daemons' , teaching spirits and 'menial' servitors .    ... and my  issue  that we are not just a 'single entity ' in our own psyche . ) 

 

So, for me , and to satisfy you curiosity , to be 'in control of my thoughts '   means , if thoughts arise that I consider bad,  unhealthy, detrimental; to my purpose, subversive , etc . Then I 'hand them over ' to the 're-educators ' .  if they will not conform , well, they have to be dissipated  and 'cleared ' .    At first it was a conscious meditation ... low it seems to 'run itself' .

 

Unwelcome thoughts rarely arise now , if they do ... I call upon 'the team'  and they dealt with it . 

 

We have immense facilities available to us in the unconscious ,  a big part of Magick  is the utilization  of those forces under a trained and balanced   King '  of the domain .

 

 

.

Edited 13 hours ago by Nungali

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

In my practice, there is no attempt to control thoughts, only to be aware of them and my relationship to them.

 

True, one may not be able to absolutely control thoughts or even predict the kind of thoughts that do arise. However, it is possible to influence them with the things we wish for. For example, if one is in fresh love and the thought will be about her, more or less. Simply that not a thing arises  from nothing. It is all connected in someway?

 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

My experience is that thoughts spontaneously arise without being invited necessarily.

I have not found it possible to select or screen them before they appear in consciousness.

What I can control is how much I engage with them, which affects how long they hang around.

I can also control what actions I take as a result but I can't really control what shows up.

I can go looking for specific trains of thought but I'm referring to those thoughts and feelings that simply show up without any particular reason or invitation.

Certainly we can cultivate mental and physical discipline and this will affect what comes up as thoughts and feelings.

On the other hand, I think it is impossible, at least for me, to control what arises in consciousness at any given moment. 

I'm curious about what it means to others to be in control of thought.

 

I do believe that what we surround ourselves with .. it does influence what thoughts arise.

Spend lots of time watching vampire videos and thoughts about vampires may arise?

Listen to lots of love songs .. and then, one pines about your lost loves??

If one has interest in auto mechanics then thought may be about cars?

 

What does control of thoughts means to me?? The choice of following those thoughts that do arise or to not follow those thoughts.

If there is emotions that take over ... then thoughts can move so fast to cover those emotions. Effectively backing those emotions.

To reinforce them beyond reason, before reason has a chance to think before actions taken . If we can have the choice, to be able to see the moments before and after the emotion then we might be able to direct the thoughts and/or actions to a wiser choices.

[BigSkyDiamond]

5 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

Yes. That means I have to take full 100% responsibility for all of my thought, speech, actions, feelings, emotions.

all of it.   for me i can't think of it as "control."  but i am responsible for them.  a teacher of mine calls it "being master in your own house."

 

oh and one more, add to the list

beliefs

 

I am also responsible for the beliefs i hold.  beliefs are powerful engines driving the bus and generating thought speech action feelings emotions.  (for instance the opening post includes a belief that "there is so much evil in the world."  not everyone holds that belief. i do not hold that belief.)  Responsibility for my beliefs includes being aware of them, identifying the beliefs i hold, unearthing them, and deciding whether to keep or discard this or that belief.  considering whether a belief is still valid for me.  is it aligned with my health and well-being.  does it contradict other beliefs i hold, if it does then something has to change.

 

beliefs are not facts.

just like emotions are not facts.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Nungali]

Good point BSD . I remember years back here on DBs some poster was amazed then incredulous then insulting at my stated belief that 'we are all part of the dream of the Rainbow Serpent , coiled up in an underground sea under Uluru . 

 

I kept  telling him it was what I ( chose to )    believe   ... with emphasis on   belief .   He didn't get it .

 

If he asked me what I thought ... our what 'the truth of the matter was' ... he would have got entirely different answers . 

 

People got  them things all mixed up . 

 

I have said it a few times here ; when I did Comparative Religion at Uni , the first few units where all about belief ; history, comparisons , whys and wherefores , psychology , even neurology . A few didn't like that at all , their beliefs were ( in a religious studies environment )  ,  held 'sacred' .

 

Handy maybe .... but not 'sacred ' and certainly not unassailable . 

 

 

.

Edited 7 hours ago by Nungali