Taomeow

Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

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All right, I think I have a choice of a few options.  I wanted the thread to be visible and contributable to from the get-go, and that's why I didn't start it in my PPD as originally planned...  not many people bother to visit PPDs (even though in some cases that's where all the gems of cultivation can be found).  And now I have wonderful and thoughtful people complain that they have to sift through too much garbage to get to the posts worth their bandwidth here.  So I'm debating with myself -- what ought to be done about it?  I'm considering several scenarios:

 

1. Screw it, abandon it and let the trolls have their ball.  We all exist for their entertainment anyway.  You cut one troll's head, three more grow in its place.  A losing battle.  Choose your battles and give them their daily bread.

 

2. Take the thread to PPD, delete all trolling/derailing material, clean it up.  And screw it once again, because no one will read or contribute and you'll run out of steam carrying on in no time.  Talking to myself about Sumer, civilization, all that jazz?  I can do that without typing.

 

3. I don't know what, I need another cup of coffee before I might have another idea.  

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10 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

All right, I think I have a choice of a few options.  I wanted the thread to be visible and contributable to from the get-go, and that's why I didn't start it in my PPD as originally planned...  not many people bother to visit PPDs (even though in some cases that's where all the gems of cultivation can be found).  And now I have wonderful and thoughtful people complain that they have to sift through too much garbage to get to the posts worth their bandwidth here.  So I'm debating with myself -- what ought to be done about it?  I'm considering several scenarios:

 

1. Screw it, abandon it and let the trolls have their ball.  We all exist for their entertainment anyway.  You cut one troll's head, three more grow in its place.  A losing battle.  Choose your battles and give them their daily bread.

 

2. Take the thread to PPD, delete all trolling/derailing material, clean it up.  And screw it once again, because no one will read or contribute and you'll run out of steam carrying on in no time.  Talking to myself about Sumer, civilization, all that jazz?  I can do that without typing.

 

3. I don't know what, I need another cup of coffee before I might have another idea.  

 

I vote for just getting back on topic - and I'll try to do so. :)

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5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Could argue about this one:

 

BrexitMapNikola93.jpg

 

No thanks . As it wasnt about arguing with you or maps. It was the nonsense gendao wrote -  again.

 

A further question  is about the name of America .

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4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I vote for just getting back on topic - and I'll try to do so. :)

 

I have done that several times , after we 'explored' other avenues .   I even hid some of my stuff ( side issues, pics, etc )  in spoiler boxes, as requested .  I thought it was going sort ok ... until ....

 

Isnt this the thread Sean told Gendao to fuck off from .

 

 

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For Nungali only:

Spoiler

 

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

I would love to watch Gendao walk across all that free land that no one owned and everyone was allowed to go   :D 

 

Hope he could keep his scalp on  .

 

" Each tribe pushed other tribes off the land it wanted and in turn was frequently forced out by other later more powerful tribes. Individual status in each tribal band was based on bravery in battle, coups and scalps taken, slaves and horses stolen, enemies tortured, “foreign” women raped  ....  "   -

 

I wont finish with some lame meme pic to  to show what a nong he is ... here is a paper that does it  ;

 

https://www.lagrange.edu/resources/pdf/citations08/CULTURALASPECTSOFWARFARE.pdf

 

In ancient Australia  too , yeah, you could walk all over the place..., where you had RIGHT to .... connections, extended family .... you might be cheered on the other side of the country .But it certainly wasn't free for all 

how did that turn out ?  He got  huge stone spear head through his right kidney ..... thunk   .... bye bye .

I don't see where your quote was in that paper?  Instead, the paper seems to show how aboriginal warfare was driven largely to replace their populations decimated by European contact.  I mean, these guys were in sheer survival mode soon after that, with their populations cut in half.  Whereas pre-contact, there were no horses or slaves to even trade...

Quote

As in many Indian cultures, the Iroquois practice of warfare was not driven by territorial expansion or economic gain; but the need for social continuity.
With the Europeans came disease and technology both unfamiliar and destruction to these tribes.  From the mid-sixteenth century, disease ran rampant through the Iroquois tribes and reduced them to half of their populationMaintenance of population levels was only possible through war and adoption of new members.  The significance of adoption and maintenance of population is best understood by the role of warfare in Iroquois society.
Similarly to their European counterparts, the Iroquois engaged in battle for prominence of society.  However, according to the Iroquois prominence was gained through maintenance and growth of tribal spiritual power.  War captives were used to replace the dead, literally and symbolically. According to Richter, warfare defined Iroquois mourning practices.  By the end of the first half of the seventeenth century, warfare practices were further redefined with European trade.

Death that spawned from war was considered traumatic and caused profound grief to loved ones.  The deceased’s family and village suffered a loss of power as a result of this loss of life.  The only way to appease the mourning families was to wage vengeance on their killers.
Pre-Cultural Aspects of Warfare: The Iroquois Institution of the Mourning War states, as many Native American societies are  defined,  fought “primitive” wars due to their lack of geopolitical concerns or plans of destruction of opponents will to fight.
The traditional wars of the Five Nations centered on the premise of population stability, which in turn provided individual and collective spiritual power.  When a person died, according to the Iroquois, “the  power of his or her lineage, clan, and  nation diminished in proportion to his or her individual  strength.  ”Requickening is a ritual in which the deceased’s name, along with the social role and duties it represented, transfers to a successor.
Through requickening, any vacancy in Iroquois families and villages are thus filled symbolically and physically.
Scalping also aided in demonstrating superiority while simultaneously spreading a sense of fear among Europeans.

And what's the point of referencing a fictional movie?  BTW, the stranger was killed there because he was mistaken for having kidnapped Ridjimiraril's second wife...not merely because he had come there.  But it was just a drama, not a documentary, so a moot poot anyways.

 

 

Edited by gendao
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21 minutes ago, gendao said:

For Nungali only:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I don't see where your quote was in that paper?  Instead, the paper seems to show how aboriginal warfare was driven largely to replace their populations decimated by European contact.  I mean, these guys were in sheer survival mode soon after that, with their populations cut in half.  Whereas pre-contact, there were no horses or slaves to even trade...

And what's the point of referencing a fictional movie?  BTW, the stranger was killed there because he was mistaken for having kidnapped Ridjimiraril's second wife...not merely because he had come there.  But it was just a drama, so a moot poot.

 

 

 

Well, what do you know -- you, gendao, may have THE solution to my problem.  If you kindly, pretty please, post everything like that in this thread, so that anyone who wants to familiarize themselves with your material can do it of their free will instead of feeling assaulted on their own land by a ruthless invader walking all over their online customs and their native way of thread life like a colonial conquistador, that would be awesome.  It would also indicate that you personally practice what you preach.  Resistance starts at home...  resist the temptation to colonize the thread and we'll have less of that unwelcome vibe in the world!!  Do we have a deal?      

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Bravo Taomeow 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

brilliant 'telling off'    ... but he 'liked it '     ...oh right , now I understand .... he didnt get it .

 

Edited by Nungali
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I was just discussing bronze age imports and exports elsewhere ;  eg lapis went from  BMAC (Afghanistan) ended up in Egypt , etc  but what did they get in return .   While explaining some things I put some pictures of artifacts up ... and then noticed something curious .

 

Ceremonial axe -   Sumer ;

thumb_50_default_full_screen.jpeg

 

a natural enough scene  - lion gets the pig  .....    or does it represent something else ?   Two 'things' opposed  or in conflict ?

 

 

BMAC ceremonial axe ;

BactrianAxHead2000BC.jpg

 

' Come on you two !  Break it up !

( the two headed bird man seemed  a common motiff in BMAC  .   Also in  Pisdadian mythology - transition from BMAC to YAZ cultures  -  it is described as  a   fair and just rule , more egalitarian  and people from other places migrated to live there becasue of this  ... it seems they considered it less oppressive .

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Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

 

 

5164.jpg

 

Jarron_Maya_2_-_Ixquic_y_los_Se%C3%B1ore

 

 

500px-Abraxas_gem_scan.svg.png

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And I was reminded of Scythian artifacts:

 

Image result for scythian art

 

image.png.ec3efa4064f142ba9a43c9a12addb2cf.png

 

And tattoos:

Image result for scythian tattoo

 

 

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U7 in Rostov Scythians

 
I found it quite interesting that in terms of mtDNA, the Rostov Scythians studied by der Sarkissian resembled closely the Shugnans of Tajikistan, who speak an eastern Iranian language. The author finds links between the Scythians and the "Central Asian Corridor", in particular with respect to mtDNA haplogroup U7.

This "Central Asian Corridor" sensu der Sarkissian (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India) seems to touch Frachetti's Inner Asian Mountain Corridor (shown below) in the region of the Pamirs.
 
Interestingly, the Sughnans belong, anthropologically to the Pamir-Ferghana type, which was also called Central Asian interfluvial type, the rivers in question being the Oxus and Jaxartes (Amu Darya and Syr Darya). And, of course, between these two rivers was the heartland of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex, which I have previously linked with the Indo-Iranians.
 
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A little off topic , so 

 

Spoiler

 

 

I found an  interesting early connection with China  ,   re my  Avestan     ' ancient original homeland ' ;  Airyanum Vaeja / Shamballa in the Pamir Mts  and their influence in BMAC , and their early incursions ( trade ? )  and contact into areas we now know as 'China' .   BMAC language is as yet 'unknown' ,   yet ;

 

In 2001, archaeologists found a thumbnail-size stone object from Bactria Margiana inscribed with three or four red symbols that may be an ancient form of writing. The symbols are different from those used in the writing of Mesopotamia, Iran and the Indus Valley. The scientists speculate the object may have been a seal, with a measure of units of grain, and was used in the accounting of commodities as was the case with seals in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. [Source: New York Times]

The symbols resemble an ancient form of Chinese writing that was used until about 200 B.C. A similar-sized seal found in Xinjiang, dated to the Han Period (206 B.C. to A.D. 9) has almost identical symbols. If there is a link between the newly-discovered symbols and the ancient Chinese writing it suggests that the Chinese writing was influenced by the writing of Turkmenistan’s ancient civilization.

The verdict is still out on whether the symbols are a true writing based on a spoken language. Critics claim the symbols are simply too limited to link them with a language. Dr. Fredrik T. Hiebert of the University of Pennsylvania, one the discoverer of the inscription, told the New York Times, “What is super significant to me, this is the first time that three or four signs have been found in relation to each there this long ago in Central Asia. At some basic level, this seems to be writing. These are not just a series of random signs, potter’s marks or decorations. Of course, with only one seal, it is premature to talk about how it was used, what the symbols meant or what kind of language it was.”

http://factsanddetails.com/central-asia/Central_Asian_Topics/sub8_8a/entry-4497.html#chapter-5

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Nungali said:

U7 in Rostov Scythians

 
I found it quite interesting that in terms of mtDNA, the Rostov Scythians studied by der Sarkissian resembled closely the Shugnans of Tajikistan, who speak an eastern Iranian language. The author finds links between the Scythians and the "Central Asian Corridor", in particular with respect to mtDNA haplogroup U7.

This "Central Asian Corridor" sensu der Sarkissian (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India) seems to touch Frachetti's Inner Asian Mountain Corridor (shown below) in the region of the Pamirs.
 
Interestingly, the Sughnans belong, anthropologically to the Pamir-Ferghana type, which was also called Central Asian interfluvial type, the rivers in question being the Oxus and Jaxartes (Amu Darya and Syr Darya). And, of course, between these two rivers was the heartland of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex, which I have previously linked with the Indo-Iranians.
 

 

 

I'm a bit lost on the timeline but is it possible that the BMAC are displaced IVC peoples???

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Heirbert and others show a development  from Kopet Dag  or , if elsewhere ;  Jiroft  -  in artefacts and style  that was refined in BMAC . Also archaeology shows a movement out of  'dry farming' in Kopet Dag foothills to the nearby eastern Oasis  and a transition to irrigation .

 

IVC influence /  outpost / 'trading post'       went as far as Shortugai  near the lapis lazuli  mines .

 

Some say a 'Proto-Elamite'  Influence , but that is hard to track down .   Also remember that BMAC went through  various stages of development  , and being on a trade cross roads had a lot of various cultural and technological influences  that they developed int their own 'style'  . .

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 Fishing in Sahara!  Feasting on fish -- that's how the inhabitants of that moist fertile land lived until 5,900 years ago...

 

"Archaeologists have previously found evidence that for much of the early Holocene period (around 10,200 to 8,000 years ago) the Tadrart Acacus mountains in the Saharan Desert was humid with many permanent bodies of water.

“It is hard to say how much water was there,” said Prof Savino di Lernia, the lead author of the study along with Prof Wim Van Neer. “During the early Holocene there were permanent water bodies with plenty of fish, but things changed around 5,900 years ago, with the onset of present desert conditions.”

 

What an interesting timeline for the "onset" of those conditions if we recall that this is within a small margin of error (a couple hundred years, give or take) of the time agriculture, cities, civilization, out of fucking nowhere like David Hasselhof, graced the region with their sudden appearance.  

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/early-humans-feasted-on-fish-in-the-sahara-desert-10000-years-ago/

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“Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that life for which you are looking. When the gods created humans they allotted to them death, but life they retained in their own keeping. Humans are born, they live, then they die, this is the order that the gods have decreed. But until the end comes, enjoy your life, spend it in happiness, not despair. Savor your food, make each of your days a delight, bathe and anoint yourself, wear bright clothes that are sparkling clean, let music, joy and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand, and make your lover happy in your embrace. That is the best way for a human to live.”
―  The Epic of Gilgamesh

 

 

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Well, that sounds a LOT better  than  " fear God "  .  (it also sounds like the 'religion of Nuit '  )

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1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Well, that sounds a LOT better  than  " fear God "  .  (it also sounds like the 'religion of Nuit '  )

 

Crowley was very aware of taoism.  Where this idea is central, and even immortalists were not all after actual god-like immortality but invariably after healthy and contented longevity, living out the full span of one's human years enjoying family and friends, good food, all things nature, all the simple pleasures of life. 

 

The disturbing part of the quote though is this imposition of death on humans by gods who don't choose it for themselves nor let humans choose. 

 

So Laozi's "followers of death" are merely obeying the will of the gods?..  And "followers of life," the immortalists, are the taoist insurrection!     

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I think the imposition of death from the Gods is a farce .   Look at nature , what is immortal , look at humans , they are a part of nature , so why should they be immune to death ?

 

Besides, the 'Gods' are immortal because they are not 'life'  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces , not having mortality.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nungali said:

I think the imposition of death from the Gods is a farce .   Look at nature , what is immortal , look at humans , they are a part of nature , so why should they be immune to death ?

 

Besides, the 'Gods' are immortal because they are not 'life'  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces , not having mortality.  

 

 

 

Actually, there's quite a few biologically immortal species in nature.  Turritopsis dohrnii, also known as the immortal jellyfish, 

is an example, and in general, if we don't insist on associating immortality with "complex" animals, it's fairly widespread.  And there's nothing to stop the gods from saying no specifically to complex animals, including their human pets.  How natural is nature?  How unnatural is the unnatural?  I had a very mind-opening discussion once with a taoist in China regarding the grey zones of this inquiry, but I don't want to interfere with my own thread by "going there" right now.

 

Your second paragraph is an article of faith.  

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Well, some would say that immortality/life is the ability to retain all your memory and remember all of your past lives with each reincarnation.  Or essentially, you are extremely psychic and all of your subconscious is conscious.

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15 hours ago, gendao said:

Well, some would say that immortality/life is the ability to retain all your memory and remember all of your past lives with each reincarnation.  Or essentially, you are extremely psychic and all of your subconscious is conscious.

 

 

OR , some indigenous not plagued with  obsessive ideas about  'the self' , individuality, ego, etc   see something similar to waht you describe, as 'awareness' back through a sting of ancestors .

 

probably accessed via    'genetic consciousness' ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#7._(Leary)The_neurogenetic_circuit_(Wilson)The_morphogenetic_circuit[39][40]

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