Taomeow

Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

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On 1/6/2020 at 5:37 PM, Taomeow said:

 

In theory, yes.  But how does it manifest in, e.g., Christianity?  Which god is the One?  Or even in Zoroastrianism, the prime candidate for being considered the de-facto if not de-jure mother of all Indo-European (not "Abrahamic") "monotheistic" religions?  They did have one god...  for a while.  Ahura Mazda, god-creator of the universe, the One God.  But then, he also created the twin gods,  Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu (Ormazd and Ahriman), the good guy and the bad guy (interestingly, they associated the good guy with matter and the bad guy with spirit!)  And then Ahura Mazda proceeds to sort of turn into Spenta Mainyu and gets to be identified with him.  So, from one god to three to two.  But that's not the end of the story, because later, around the 3rd century, the paternity of Ahura Mazda is questioned and the twin gods are assigned a new father, Zurvan (Time!), and get to rule the world alternately.  So, from two to three (one of which is two, so maybe a total of four) to one at a time.  It can get mighty confusing.

 

Its quite usual for polytheistic systems to have some account of creation which goes infinite/void - oneness - two - three - many without collapsing this into monotheism - I think that the key is whether or not one's One God is identified with the infinite or not.  Even in Christianity you can have the Godhead beyond the One God - and then as you mention the 'God in three persons' of the trinity - which is itself a way of dealing with the divinity of the person of Jesus (I and my father are one).  If we use the popular term 'energy' for the root/nature of everything and by analogy with physics say that energy is a measure of both motion and potential for motion (kinetic and potential energy) within a system - then if that system is infinite - then it is both infinite motion and infinite potential for motion - without becoming two infinites.  Polytheism solves this by seeing reality as an infinite number of overlapping domains - circles whose centres are everywhere and circumference nowhere (quote Bruno et al) - which can individually or collectively stand for the whole continuum - which has the potential without a great deal of painstaking clarity of seeming confusing and even arbitrary,

 

 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:37 PM, Taomeow said:

I think the source of the confusion is the gratuitous over-emphasis on the importance of monotheism as the explanation for socio-political peculiarities purportedly consequential to this mindset.  One of those theories that came to be accepted as fact, whereas all the facts point to its much lesser relevance to what we're going to have concocted against us socio-economically.  Mongolian religion that managed not to clash with shamanism in any way was, after all, also monotheistic, recognizing only one god -- Tengri.  The Mongolian khans also derived their "mandate of heaven," their right to rule, from this god alone.  Sometimes they tolerated other gods and sometimes they didn't.  It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.  Even unequivocally polytheistic religions still had a supreme ruler, it's always a hierarchy.  If they have the same methods and share the same goals, it doesn't matter that much if whatever sits on top is One or many, or many aspects of One (what Christians call the Trinity and what my scaled and feathered informant calls The Consortium.)      

 

Monotheism is touted as superior to polytheism - mostly I feel because it is simpler.  But then it is in the end a concealed duality - because if god is good then how do you explain the existence of evil?  Without demoting your god to one of a pair of opposing forces of light versus dark and so on.  Whereas a polytheism allows for say a positive dark and a positive light in relation to each other and ultimately non-different within an infinite field of 'power' (?)  And the dark is then something like the unknowable, the mother of all things etc.  

 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:37 PM, Taomeow said:

Ahura Mazda does look familiar...  

 

image.png.85bb93b4e78d2666678efe56f7d21f32.png

 

Bedhety?  with curly things like the Egyptian red Crown?

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Thought I would post this here for the reference library on this subject

 

Book review . The book look goods, its on my next list .

 

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/10/14/book-review-against-the-grain/

 

Extract;

 

" Against The Grain should be read as a prequel to Scott’s most famous work, Seeing Like A State. SLaS argued that much of what we think of as “progress” towards a more orderly world – like Prussian scientific forestry, or planned cities with wide streets – didn’t make anyone better off or grow the economy. It was “progress” only from a state’s-eye perspective of wanting everything to be legible to top-down control and taxation. He particularly criticizes the High Modernists, Le Corbusier-style architects who replaced flourishing organic cities with grandiose but sterile rectangular grids.

 

" ... Sumer just before the dawn of civilization was in many ways an idyllic place. Forget your vision of stark Middle Eastern deserts; in the Paleolithic the area where the first cities would one day arise was a great swamp. Foragers roamed the landscape, eating everything from fishes to gazelles to shellfish to wild plants. There was more than enough for everyone; “as Jack Harlan famously showed, one could gather enough [wild] grain with a flint sickle in three weeks to feed a family for a year”. Foragers alternated short periods of frenetic activity (eg catching as many gazelles as possible during their weeklong migration through the area) with longer periods of rest and recreation.

 

" And not because the new lifestyle made this happy life even happier. While hunter-gatherers enjoyed a stable and varied diet, agriculturalists subsisted almost entirely on grain; their bones display signs of significant nutritional deficiency. While hunter-gatherers were well-fed, agriculturalists were famished; their skeletons were several inches shorter than contemporaneous foragers. While hunter-gatherers worked ten to twenty hour weeks, agriculturalists lived lives of backbreaking labor. While hunter-gatherers who survived childhood usually lived to old age, agriculturalists suffered from disease, warfare, and conscription into dangerous forced labor.

 

"Scott argues that intensive grain cultivation was a natural choice not for cultivators, but for the states oppressing them. The shift from complicated and mobile food webs to a perfectly rectangular grid of wheat fields was the same sort of “progress” as scientific forestry and planned cities thousands of years later: "

Edited by Nungali
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3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Thought I would post this here for the reference library on this subject

 

Book review . The book look goods, its on my next list .

 

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/10/14/book-review-against-the-grain/

 

Extract;

 

" Against The Grain should be read as a prequel to Scott’s most famous work, Seeing Like A State. SLaS argued that much of what we think of as “progress” towards a more orderly world – like Prussian scientific forestry, or planned cities with wide streets – didn’t make anyone better off or grow the economy. It was “progress” only from a state’s-eye perspective of wanting everything to be legible to top-down control and taxation. He particularly criticizes the High Modernists, Le Corbusier-style architects who replaced flourishing organic cities with grandiose but sterile rectangular grids.

 

" ...

And not because the new lifestyle made this happy life even happier. While hunter-gatherers enjoyed a stable and varied diet, agriculturalists subsisted almost entirely on grain; their bones display signs of significant nutritional deficiency. While hunter-gatherers were well-fed, agriculturalists were famished; their skeletons were several inches shorter than contemporaneous foragers. While hunter-gatherers worked ten to twenty hour weeks, agriculturalists lived lives of backbreaking labor. While hunter-gatherers who survived childhood usually lived to old age, agriculturalists suffered from disease, warfare, and conscription into dangerous forced labor.

 

"Scott argues that intensive grain cultivation was a natural choice not for cultivators, but for the states oppressing them. The shift from complicated and mobile food webs to a perfectly rectangular grid of wheat fields was the same sort of “progress” as scientific forestry and planned cities thousands of years later: "

 

Read it some twenty years ago.  Count this book among a dozen or so that were formative for the worldview and overall perspective I gained since then.   Glad it's on your next list.  I'd move it to the top of the list.  

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On 1/8/2020 at 11:10 AM, Apech said:

 

 

 

Thanks for the reference.  I usually listen to something this long in the car if I have to travel somewhere far -- so I listened to a couple of Jordan Peterson's podcasts while going back and forth between San Diego and Los Angeles last year, though not this one.  I am more of a fan of his daughter's, one of the carnivores (there's a Youtube channel dedicated to her explorations, her name is Mikhaila Peterson).  She credits "zerocarb" with saving her life -- and she eventually got her parents on that diet too, which apparently made her dad quite energetic and consequently prolific.  I'll give a listen if I have a chance.  

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29 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Thanks for the reference.  I usually listen to something this long in the car if I have to travel somewhere far -- so I listened to a couple of Jordan Peterson's podcasts while going back and forth between San Diego and Los Angeles last year, though not this one.  I am more of a fan of his daughter's, one of the carnivores (there's a Youtube channel dedicated to her explorations, her name is Mikhaila Peterson).  She credits "zerocarb" with saving her life -- and she eventually got her parents on that diet too, which apparently made her dad quite energetic and consequently prolific.  I'll give a listen if I have a chance.  

 

This one isn't JP ... its just that the youtuber is a bit of a fan of his and tends to put his name in everything - but he doesn't really feature in this.

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Can you split this into another thread for a fuller discussion  ?   ..... please .

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5 hours ago, Apech said:

Just for discussion.

 

Interesting.  Rings some bells...  I recognized the ancient Altaic Scythian tattoos (3:08) -- seen many of those, they are artistically  astonishing.  Scythians were originally nomadic warriors of Siberia and went everywhere -- Herodotus notes that the Scythians raided and exacted tribute from "the whole of Asia," but they were certainly quite all over Europe too.  Their burial sites known as kurgans, some of which I've seen in Eastern Ukraine and some of which my then-boyfriend, an archeologist/historian, personally excavated, are found all over Central Asia and Eastern, Western and Northern Europe. 

 

Then those two circles tattooed on the forehead of the woman at 2:58 -- I think I know what they stand for.  They are the symbols of Mara and Rod, two principal proto-Slavic deities.  Mara became the first of the "new gods" when the monotheistic worship of Makosh, the Great Mother, was superseded by the appearance of her "children" and/or priests.  Eventually Mara somehow replaced Mother Goddess and became the main one -- she was the goddess of illness, death, and the underworld, ruling alongside Rod (which is also the Russian for "genealogy, origin, family, blood lineage" derived from "rody" -- childbirth and present in such words as "rodina" -- "motherland" in Russian" and "family" in Ukrainian, "narod" -- the people, etc.)  Rod was the god of crafts and masonry, the creator of the human fate and later of the whole visible universe (while Mara was in charge of the lower invisible one.)  

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3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Can you split this into another thread for a fuller discussion  ?   ..... please .

 

I can't split - maybe just start a new thread.

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The whole issue of the movement of people's in that part of the world is amazingly complex.

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I think its amazingly complex since we became we and started moving about .

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23 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I can't split - maybe just start a new thread.

 

I m taking this as  ' maybe you start  a new thread '

 

I will , and I will comment later after I finish watching that vid . .....  (  and return from my snorkel   :)  )

Edited by Nungali

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Another detour to Egypt.  Apparently the pharaohs smoked tobacco and snorted cocaine...  and where did they get these goodies?  ???Mighty intriguing...

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Not really , it was nicotine found  and many Egyptian plants contain it . 

 

Such as?

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4 hours ago, Nungali said:

Not really , it was nicotine found  and many Egyptian plants contain it .  The dope , well, they had that.  The '  cocaine '  ...... ?  

 

 

 

yeah ..... I'd probably sail in one of them little boats 1/2 way around the world for that  :) 

 

 

some more info ;   https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2019/05/new-world-drugs-in-old-world-mummies/

 

 

 

 

Its usually put down to contamination from Victorian Egyptologists.

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5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Not really , it was nicotine found  and many Egyptian plants contain it .  The dope , well, they had that.  The '  cocaine '  ...... ?  

 

 

 

yeah ..... I'd probably sail in one of them little boats 1/2 way around the world for that  :) 

 

 

some more info ;   https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2019/05/new-world-drugs-in-old-world-mummies/

 

 

 

Also it's a bit naive to think that trade routes consist of someone sailing half way across the world.  A more realistic model would be someone in South America trades with North Americans who trade with Greenland - who trade with Iceland - who trade with Ireland, who trade with Britain - who trade with Spain - who trade with North Africa - who trade with Egypt.  Thus products find themselves half way across the world.  Not saying this happened - just that its more believable.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Its usually put down to contamination from Victorian Egyptologists.

 

And if Egyptologists were snorting coke, it just further confirms my usual "they can't be trusted" attitude toward officialdom in these matters. ;)  Modern ones are probably more into synthetic opioids, which might puzzle the next generation of Egyptologists when they discover that the pharaohs were somehow able to lay their hands on oxycodone.   And the generation after them will wonder about microchipped mummies.   

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16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Such as?

 

see my 'more information link .

 

Or look up any  (non woo woo )  link  on the subject .  Its well published now .

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11 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Its usually put down to contamination from Victorian Egyptologists.

 

 Also with the nicotine perhaps . 'Tobacco water' was sometimes used as an insect repellent to stop mummy damage .

 

A mummy would seem a great place to hide your coke  (unless Zawi Hawass turns up  ... he can sniff it out from 500 meters I have heard  ! )

 

:D 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Also it's a bit naive to think that trade routes consist of someone sailing half way across the world.  A more realistic model would be someone in South America trades with North Americans who trade with Greenland - who trade with Iceland - who trade with Ireland, who trade with Britain - who trade with Spain - who trade with North Africa - who trade with Egypt.  Thus products find themselves half way across the world.  Not saying this happened - just that its more believable.

 

 

 

Yeah but ....

 

imagine how cut it would be by then  ..... as badly as Aussie coke  probably !

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here is Zawi

 

 

 

57843.jpg

 

 

note the terrible effects of nose damage from  cocaine long term snorting ....  as depicted on sphinx .

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4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

And if Egyptologists were snorting coke, it just further confirms my usual "they can't be trusted" attitude toward officialdom in these matters. ;)  Modern ones are probably more into synthetic opioids, which might puzzle the next generation of Egyptologists when they discover that the pharaohs were somehow able to lay their hands on oxycodone.   And the generation after them will wonder about microchipped mummies.   

 

Yes, we have ancient Egyptian descendent down here that are keen on that nasty stuff .

 

Spoiler

 

 LOVE the subtitles  :D

 

Edited by Nungali

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