WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1

Buddhist pride and Narcissism

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So.

Once upon a time I believed in no-self. The center of my teachings led me to a paper called Malignant-Self Love by Sam Vaknin. I may have found the paper on this website. Either way the idea that culminated in my head was a polished mirror shield that protects esoteric buddhism from the exoteric lay people and all those who can not understand symbolism. Polishing the mirror was still the heart. Not killing it. By still the emotions one can see clearly with increasing levels of perception of awareness. The emotions create turbulence and literally causing a semi-hallucinogenic trip. It is far too subtle to be called hallucinatory but could be related to some sort of micro-dose of a drug. Polishing the mirror was seeing emptiness as a mirror which is difficult to describe because it actually reveals an individuals true self. That is if you can find emptiness, then still it, and then actually gaze into your own heart and see yourself for what you really are. If you could do these things there is a good chance that your reflection is most likely a beautiful thing because these three tasks require a massive amount of effort towards virtue in the first place. I saw myself as anger. It was my true self. My literal face could be seen in emptiness as an exact 3-D reflection only red/orange. I had been my true self for years but emptiness is dangerous because it breaks down all mental conceptions even the self, the longer you spend in it. It is too sultry of an emotion but is also actually measurable as space. As you spend time in it the idea of no-self easily can be taken as the truth because all things fall apart inside of emptiness even your self. It is a dangerous thing because of how warm and peaceful and comforting emptiness is until the size of the emotion becomes bigger than a presence of about 10 yards. Holding ones self together inside of emptiness is damn near impossible. But stilled this thing is actually a mirror.

Pride comes from mastering a task. 10,000 hours is not a game. This is the general time-piece given to mastering a task with full focus in most eastern philosophy. Balancing straight up I had mastered the skill of skiing. I was a pro. I lost my pride of balance a few months after the entrance to a master realm of skiing when I decided to be proud for the first time. I was proud of mastering one thing, 10,000 hours skiing was literally my whole life. Mastering in my opinion also includes doing the activity or professional skill in your head as well. Exact visualization, like dreaming doing the thing. I lost my pride when I did a drug with "friends" on the day of pride and I can not explain how far I fell. I would like to start a thread discussing advanced buddhist meditation and the movement samadhi. Basically having single pointed attention while moving. Whether from the center of gravity or using hand-eye coordination.

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The pacification of curiosity is the highest, most advanced attainment in Buddhist meditation. 

 

Among all classes of sentient beings, only humans have the capacity for the complete cessation of the curiosity impulse. 

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Posted (edited)

If I understand you correctly you seem to have an awakening based on concentration and effort.

But this is a lower form of awakening.

A higher awakening is when the identity of the true self should be stable without effort, stable through"recognition".

Which means that through careful guidance your intelligence should become recognizant of your true self without movement or effort of any kind.  Due to this effortless self-recognition, you are able to later surrender fully your identity, to let go but without your identity losing its quality.   This is only possible through effortless self-recognition.

 

If concentration is continued it leads to problems, eventually severe problems.   The beam of concentration becomes rigidly fixed like a hammer-force that become addictive.   Eventually the force becomes crystalized inside you and difficult to undo.   I have heard that Zen Master Hakui had such concentration sickness and it took him many years to undo it using techniques of visualising melting and flowing in the stream, before his force was dissolved, and his realisation was natural and gentle.

 

You use the word attention repeatedly.

(Subject > attention > object)

 

But who is the subject ?   

Can the subject abide in and as the subject ?

This is self-recognition.

 

As for curiosity pride and so on ... forget about these things ... your only goal is to be in the right place and be what you are.  Forget about any templates of what you might manifest, either over or under exaggerated ... that you copy.

Just become what you are, in all dimensions, human and impersonally and express yourself fully internally and externally.

 

Edited by rideforever
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6 hours ago, WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1 said:

I had been my true self for years but emptiness is dangerous because it breaks down all mental conceptions even the self, the longer you spend in it.

 

The ego-self will never let itself go freely, so it hides behind no-self and says 'look, I don't exist!' When true dissolution shows up, the ego-self, that had been pretending to not be there, suddenly panics. I think this is what you are describing.

 

Certainly many claim to have fully dissolved the ego-self and continue to live. I don't doubt that is possible, but it seems to me that once fully dissolved, the next step is death, since there remains nothing here to warrant continued living.

 

 

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On 7/11/2019 at 1:33 PM, C T said:

The pacification of curiosity is the highest, most advanced attainment in Buddhist meditation. 

 

Among all classes of sentient beings, only humans have the capacity for the complete cessation of the curiosity impulse. 

 

Why is the extinguishing of curiosity considered a high attainment?

 

Just curious :D

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Why is the extinguishing of curiosity considered a high attainment?

 

Just curious :D

 

Just contemplate as you go about your life experiences, and one fortunate day, perhaps the why will change into why not :)

 

The Zen masters may have known something when they came up with the monkey mind analogy. 

 

It is the curiosity impulse that feeds the grosser base emotions while compounding the arising/festering of dualistic tendencies; Its by the taming of this same impulse that one gradually experience the soothing and calming of those same emotions. 

 

In mastering this impulse, one experiences freedom from reactionary forces and ingrained habits, ultimately leading to release. 

 

 

Edited by C T
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32 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Just contemplate as you go about your life experiences, and one fortunate day, perhaps the why will change into why not :)

 

The Zen masters may have known something when they came up with the monkey mind analogy. 

 

It is the curiosity impulse that feeds the grosser base emotions while compounding the arising/festering of dualistic tendencies; Its by the taming of this same impulse that one gradually experience the soothing and calming of those same emotions. 

 

In mastering this impulse, one experiences freedom from reactionary forces and ingrained habits, ultimately leading to release. 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply. I don’t really see how curiosity has to do with dualism. Children have a natural curiosity without judgement?

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6 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Thanks for your reply. I don’t really see how curiosity has to do with dualism. Children have a natural curiosity without judgement?

 

I think what children has is a sense of wonderment, but can understand why adults would term it curiosity. 

This same wonderment, initially free of taints, gets increasingly convoluted with age, which is then woven into unrealistic drives for sense gratifications, and this in turn gives birth to a whole host of other less simple "seeds" of desire, each waiting to sprout upon contact with associated thoughts (or patterns of thoughts). Children have thoughts too, but theirs are less driven by pride, desire, and so on. Unfortunately, they pick up adult stuff way too quickly. 

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1 minute ago, C T said:

 

I think what children has is a sense of wonderment, but can understand why adults would term it curiosity. 

This same wonderment, initially free of taints, gets increasingly convoluted with age, which is then woven into unrealistic drives for sense gratifications, and this in turn gives birth to a whole host of other less simple "seeds" of desire, each waiting to sprout upon contact with associated thoughts (or patterns of thoughts). Children have thoughts too, but theirs are less driven by pride, desire, and so on. Unfortunately, they pick up adult stuff way too quickly. 

 

Yes perhaps wonderment is a better term for what I mean. 

 

For instance being curious how something works is not reflective of duality to me. 

 

Ive always thought once someone has transcended duality, they return to¬†all manner of ‚Äúdualistic‚ÄĚ things once again. ¬† Nothing needs to be avoided or rejected.

 

i think our words are getting in the way and we’re talking about the same thing. :) fun convo for me to contemplate 

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I suppose the fundamental difference between wonderment & curiosity need to be expanded slightly.... 

 

Wonderment is when something captivates, followed almost instantly by a natural unfolding of delight that is in the main unselfish;

Curiosity is when this captivation is measured against the needs and wants of the "I", and driven by unconscious emotions, makes one seek possession of the object based on projected feelings imagined to be satisfactory, which likely will not be ultimately. 

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Posted (edited)

The monkey is reaching
For the moon in the water.
Until death overtakes him
He’ll never give up.
If he’d let go the branch and
Disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine
With dazzling pureness.

‚Äď Hakuin

 

Image result for monkey grasping at moons reflection

Edited by C T
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C T said some wonderful things about recognizing the difference between wonder and movement. Duality seems to be a blue print for reality and the reason it seems like a false self is because the more accurate it becomes the closer to reality the mind is describing nature and all things outside the body and this leads to strange dharma that is nevertheless still empirical. Foundationaly @rideforever if the subject becomes the object which is being observed you have something like @drew_hempels klein bottle example and you don't really have an external reality.. This isn't really lame its just not real life. It's like a trick the mind can do and you come close to hurting yourself because the subject isnt an object to be penetrated its the observer. You're not really here to penetrate yourself at all, this is some sort of embryonic state which might be nice for sleep, assuming you just watch and dont penetrate the object... and rest... but it's not gonna cut it when it comes to becoming one with an external self. This is why the subject becoming the subject is actually self-absorption which I do think is looked down upon. It's not something to be tampered with and definitely nothing you're supposed to break down at all. You're almost referencing poking your own eye with some sort of slow motion mindfulness.. definitely not eye surgery but not something your supposed to do hard at all. Just like am i wearing a contact this morning, yes/no?.. When you become a three dimensional work piece, or mind object, it has to be your self in all light.. Basically your string of memories your entire life.. I assume it would look something like a dragon. Longevity's symbol. And definitely not look like others life story because there's only one MC in each space and time.. I don't know how long you have to pay attention to an object outside of yourself to do samadhi but it's supposedly 15 minutes of single pointed penetrative attention that doesnt waver the object and this isn't really a game how much effort that requires and thats right about when the mind stills. As long as your not doing that subjective of subjective experiential thing. A groundwork is required and they call that the foundation. This require's so much mental preparation its not funny to call it something like ritual. But locked on external object is kind of like being an animal in the dark your attention is just following the object.. hunting.. This is post Arising and passing of mental phenomena.. Things just have movement and that's why this way doesn't lead to dead tree-zen it leads to a healthy glowing tree with so much life from the light sun and water it just keeps growing. But the attention does have to hunt something outside of itself until they both still and then you have rhythm in mind because life just keeps moving it just doesnt die. Don't repress rhythm but it spawns when the object and consciousness both find stability in mind space. Which is emptiness. Before emptiness the two healthy things attention/consciousness and objects have exact specifications of detail.. thats the real. that's non-duality.. afterwards the objects and attention know each other and things are warped until you follow something down the stream of rhythm and you have stream entry. like skiing down a mountain while seated but the land is the ripples of rhythm called live-time in mental stillness

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after entering stream time is of the essence, and literally requires 24/7 care and is the highest of branches. I Think the biggest issue is entering stream without any of your own potential which I don't think is actually possible there would be some sort of neck chip. It's not possible to have internal rhythm without the stillness unless there's some possible way to crash streams, which would appear to be nearly impossible unless buddha had someone becoming him so long they literally tried to fill his sandals or shoes while he was literally wearing them.. It's only possible to have one person in the subjective stream at a time and when it begins it is seen at a strange angle, sort of looking off to the side. A non-symmetrical entry. Symmetrical stream entry is basically the end of earth and all people are known.. it means that stream entry is the beginning of the bodhi-sattva path because it has to cross streams with literally all people on the planet. Most people and I mean most are perfect for wall sitting and not much else. Movement samadhi is the path of mastering and is the only option to reserving the right to wake up whenever one desires. Once awake if all beings have lost their potential then one would be on path alone and all symbolism would be dead.

If one could pay attention to the same object for maybe 45 minutes or an hour in the still object-observer state and ride the rhythm as it is born one would probably end up in a jhanic state. I dont know how much pleasure would be felt because the potential required to enter stream in the first place is a large amount of repressed sexual energy and is inherently intense. Also if one did it on something like a blue kasina or a red kasina I think youre entering a world where the colors have some sort of inherent self-referential feeling so cross referencing experience here would only be exemplified through something like an augmented reality machine where someone else could literally see your attention placed on a monitor or something like that. Most people would be shocked how calm and kind with yourself you have to be to get to 15 minutes of absolute attention.

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10 hours ago, WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1 said:

You're almost referencing poking your own eye

 

What practices are you doing ?  Buddhist stuff ?   And what is movement samadhi ?  Is it going for zen walks ?

You don't seem to comprehend the means by which the subject recognizes the subject.  If I understand you rightly, you imagine you would use your external perception again.   But that's not how it works.   It is internal, and effortless recognition.

 

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7 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

What practices are you doing ?  Buddhist stuff ?   And what is movement samadhi ?  Is it going for zen walks ?

You don't seem to comprehend the means by which the subject recognizes the subject.  If I understand you rightly, you imagine you would use your external perception again.   But that's not how it works.   It is internal, and effortless recognition.

 

Hey rideforever, I think I said that it was internal, the watcher watching itself, I also said that isn't real life. Staying in that state I said was close to a womb like state. You can't involve yourself in society from that position and cant have any referential points as to if you are on path from here. We are in the buddhist sub-forum so this is definitely about the 8-fold path. Not some sort of internal journey here the Dharma is ancient and its tongue is cold. This stuff is not for the feint of heart. To even look within one time can ruin a young man's life without proof there is man-hood deeper down the way. I don't want to make this a sexist thing but If the end result of meditation for a long period of time is a crippled back and inability to labor in the name of religion or god there isn't a point. To attain higher levels of mindfulness leads to a broken down conception of reality that looks like a discrete motion picture. The individual moves faster through the surrounding scene that the scene does. This isn't a slowing down of perception with relation to nature its a increased frame rate which should lead to advanced athleticism. People shouldn't be looking for siddhi or magick or something like that. They should see people on path with advanced athleticism and heroic hand-eye coordination. This isn't a path for the tired but all monks I see on the web are either near emaciated or fat. The supposed happiest man on the planet is a buddhist and I just see another fat person, not to be distasteful, with not much grace just slowed down by things that arent stream-lined. To build a vessel of the dharma is the plan to cross all suffering, sitting is not the answer. Continuous study is the answer. To never stop studying mathematics, psychology and things that are comparable is the closest thing we can get to an answer to history and some sort of fluid dynamics of personality. Psychology requires answers to the mind that are mathematical not founded on observation or pseudo-psychology. We need a direct mind-to-interface program to run on a computer to properly organize the population of the world into different levels of spatial intelligence. If the person has no potential and just runs a blank screen we have an issue here of classes of people that are below mindfulness with no capacity to go up in terms of strength of mindfulness and actually bring mindful followers down by some sort of mathematical weight. We need a weight of the mind system here and we need another Buddha in this day and time

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36 minutes ago, WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1 said:

dharma

 

You have many good ideas, heroic ideals,  and skepticism and courage, which I commend.

However ... I get the distinct impression that your furious heroic external work is simply being lost in the mind and making justifications for it, controlling and instrumentalising the world.

You seem to have no stability or quiet respect within you, nor a quiet appreciation of your own inner truth, the gently spring of life that does not rush.

The false self of ordinary people is rushing about doing many things being heroic, and giving themselves many justifications ... and there are those who do the same but using the guise of spirituality.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

You have many good ideas, heroic ideals,  and skepticism and courage, which I commend.

However ... I get the distinct impression that your furious heroic external work is simply being lost in the mind and making justifications for it, controlling and instrumentalising the world.

You seem to have no stability or quiet respect within you, nor a quiet appreciation of your own inner truth, the gently spring of life that does not rush.

The false self of ordinary people is rushing about doing many things being heroic, and giving themselves many justifications ... and there are those who do the same but using the guise of spirituality.

 

ok mom, meditation is not a game. I know a lot of people that started and did not make it back. I've even lost friends to the tide and these people did not really ever have a grasp on the way these things were done without me. IDK how to explain this but it would be something like a metaphor where everyone can "meditate" in the presence of a meditation group but they never bring the work home with them and do their homework. They did not make it back to reality or to attainment.

So I have a serious issue with you saying my generic voice in this thread is some sort of furious heroic external work. This is just me voicing my opinion generically. I have a naturally booming voice and last time I checked my voice is not heard in this community but I'm glad to see a big buddhist name like C T actually commented on this thread and also I'm pretty certain this isn't a library. The noble path makes plenty of noise the sound is just non-vibrational. I'm gonna pretend you meditate and are not in some sort of respect network because the beginning of this thread is something like buddhist pride & narcissism and narcissism and respect almost always go hand in hand. I can't speak for you but having a self and respecting yourself are not the same thing. Also two people agreeing they both exist in a respectful relationship does not mean they have one. Meditation in emptiness breaks down your self to the rawest potential and if you dont humbly take it in both hands and run to a safe meditation cushion to see what you're worth you're not really aware this is doing your homework in a Sangha.

Edited by WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1

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@WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1 , I enjoy your writing.  Just wanted to suggest breaking it into more paragraphs would make it easier to read. 

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1 hour ago, thelerner said:

@WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1 , I enjoy your writing.  Just wanted to suggest breaking it into more paragraphs would make it easier to read. 

thanks @thelerner I can't really seem to figure out how to get the return button to work.

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