Central channel or Heart Field?

[KuroShiro]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

The context where my master uses this word is actually as follows —  

 

He is someone who can manifest taijiquan’s mysterious powers...one of the few I know who can actually deliver the goods. 

 

When asked how he does it, he says “I just pour my love into the other person. If they  don’t know how to how to handle it, they will fly away....”

 

In this context he said “to issue power, there are many ways. You can put a strong emotion and it will work. But what you put in will also solidify what you cultivate in your nature. If you choose anger, it will work, but it will make you angrier each time you use it. If you use hatred, it’ll work too but it will poison little by little”. The most effective thing he found is to pour love. “Keep practicing with a loving atttitude and that’ll become your nature”...  unconditioned, unattached feeling of love, compassion is what works best according to him. Having trained in the cold (empty) way of manifesting taiji power and also the loving-kindness way,  I found the love way to the more powerful. 

 

Thank you very much for sharing this!

Did you you feel a nurturing presence, on your very first contact with your Master's power?

 

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Thank you very much for sharing this!

Did you you feel a nurturing presence, on your very first contact with your Master's power?

 

Yes loving and kind!  

I wrote about it here — https://www.medhajournal.com/sometimes-we-need-the-spiritual-milestones-and-the-signposts/

[freeform]

Confusion about terms happens when you stray outside a system and begin to mix in frameworks from other traditions.

 

This ‘club talk’ or jargon allows for intelligible conversation. But when you mix jargon from jewellery making with behavioural economics jargon you’re going to get one big woolly mess.

 

And so it is when you bring Divine Love and God and Chakras into the Daoist internal arts.

 

“Oh the Love I’m talking about is such a level of love that it’s the fundamental base of being... Because it’s based in my individual experience” - that sort of thing is a cop-out to me.

 

Classical systems allow for a shared understanding - based not only in abstract concepts but in embodied experience that is shared amongst the practitioners within that lineage. 

 

I had a teacher who would mostly teach on the Shen level, transmitted through live calligraphy. All the students had to learn a whole new (rather weird) ‘vocabulary’. We would sit with the pieces and they would each have a different effect. Some would make the body vibrate violently, some would envelop you in deep stillness. Over time you learn the new ‘language’ as you absorb and plug into the particular lineage.

 

Of course I recognise that just because one mixes together different systems doesn’t mean they’re delusional about their inner development. That’s not what I’m trying to say.

 

When you take a system and start mixing theoretical frameworks, milestones, practices, subtle distinctions etc, the thread that weaves that lineage together begins to break. That’s how these precious arts slowly die out. That just saddens me.

 

In these mash-up systems, you also lose the milestones that pop up along the way. As a result, you lose your orientation on the path. This is not ‘prove-it’ practices or too much ‘doing’. These are simply physiological changes that occur along the way... everything from specific changes in the connective tissues, specific changes in your head shape or even the exact taste and colour of the liquid that starts to drip from your upper palate.

 

These all signify signposts of inner transformation - so you know exactly where you are.

 

So at least I know I’m not just imagining things - because if there’s room for it, I know that I will! 

 

But when I get the signs, I can be pretty certain that for example my ren channel is open or that I’ve been in the right sort of absorption for long enough that I got the relevant physiological sign for that. 

 

When you lose your ability to orient yourself on the path, then delusion sets in. I’ve certainly seen it in myself before! When delusion creeps into a system, the authentic part of the tradition eventually dies out. And you get an empty system. Which is sadly the vast majority of what’s available!

 

I get that I can come across a bit harsh, but I rather be direct when talking about something important. I honestly mean no disrespect. I think this sort of debate is useful whether we agree or not. We don’t always have to reach common ground, but we can certainly see things from different perspectives.

[freeform]

57 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes loving and kind!  

I wrote about it here — https://www.medhajournal.com/sometimes-we-need-the-spiritual-milestones-and-the-signposts/

 

I liked your article. Sounds like you had some amazing experiences! I’m sure that along with these you’ve probably had some specific physiological changes too.

 

I must say though - that I really am disappointed by the extent of all the tradition mash-up.

 

Even if it aids your own understanding; by teaching it this way, you’re just passing on the unique mixture that’s ‘you’ (Dwaism!) - not real a real lineage. And eventually ‘you’ will die (probably  ) But an authentic lineage could live on and be there for generations to come

[dwai]

34 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I liked your article. Sounds like you had some amazing experiences! I’m sure that along with these you’ve probably had some specific physiological changes too.

After a point physiological changes don’t register. 

34 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I must say though - that I really am disappointed by the extent of all the tradition mash-up.

Too bad. To each their own... 

34 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Even if it aids your own understanding; by teaching it this way, you’re just passing on the unique mixture that’s ‘you’ (Dwaism!) - not real a real lineage. And eventually ‘you’ will die (probably  ) But an authentic lineage could live on and be there for generations to come

 

as much as I care about the traditions, i care about the end more than the means. 

 

There are plenty of standard bearers of traditions. I never claimed to be one. My goal is to point the seeker (who comes to me) in the right direction. Someone I might point with yoga, someone else with taiji, someone else with jnana yoga. 

 

 

[freeform]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

After a point physiological changes don’t register. 

 

 

From the perspective of authentic lineages, this just means that you’ve stepped off the path.

 

Distinct physiological changes occur all the way through to the very highest levels of immortality. At the mid to later stages, ‘physiological’ becomes a bit of understatement - we’re talking changes that break the laws of physics.

 

14 hours ago, dwai said:

There are plenty of standard bearers of traditions. I never claimed to be one. 

 

 

There aren’t many. Not genuine ones anyway.

 

Besides, I was thinking particularly of your teacher, I’m guessing he’s in a Daoist lineage...

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

From the perspective of authentic lineages, this just means that you’ve stepped off the path.

 

Distinct physiological changes occur all the way through to the very highest levels of immortality. At the mid to later stages, ‘physiological’ becomes a bit of understatement - we’re talking changes that break the laws of physics.

Let me say...the  immortality of Daoism doesn’t work the way it is conceptualized.  

it means something very different from what most modern day daoists understand it to be.

 

I know folks who interact with these immortals and have interacted with a few myself. 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

There aren’t many. Not genuine ones anyway.

 

Besides, I was thinking particularly of your teacher, I’m guessing he’s in a Daoist lineage...

If have to know him, you need to meet him and see for yourself  

 

On the other hand If you’d like a little experiment on how Heart field cultivation works, let me know...

[freeform]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

I know folks who interact with these immortals and have interacted with a few myself. 

 

 

I’m sure you’ll understand my skepticism. I’ve met dozens of people who think they interact with immortals. Sadly most of them couldn’t even sink in their kwa, let alone display any physical signs of development.

 

Did they really interact with immortals? Maybe. Could they be imagining stuff? Maybe. Could they be having legitimate experiences of some sort that they  unconsciously manipulate into some form that’s more pleasing for them? Maybe.

 

One thing is for certain though - they have no signs of development along the path. Which means whatever experiences they’re having should be treated as completely irrelevant. This is another important guideline all genuine masters go to great lengths to stress.

 

The reality is that the real benchmarks for development along the path are set far higher than people imagine. “Of course I have a Dan Tien - I’ve worked with it for years” - then you have a poke around in their abdomen and there’s nothing there - or worse still there’s only signs of stagnation... “of course you won’t feel anything - the Dan Tien is an energetic structure” 

 

Delusion is a constant threat. It happens to beginners, it happens to advanced practitioners. It happens to dedicated practitioners as well as ‘experience chasers’. That’s why a genuine lineage has recognisable, objective milestones. Teachers will check for them before they teach you further. 

 

16 hours ago, dwai said:

On the other hand If you’d like a little experiment on how Heart field cultivation works, let me know...

 

Sure - if it doesn’t counteract what I’m doing at the moment.

[dwai]

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

 

Sure - if it doesn’t counteract what I’m doing at the moment.

Only way is to dive in. If you’d like we could try a little experiment, but it’d work best in real time. If you have access to the slack chat channel of Daobums we could work there. 

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Only way is to dive in. If you’d like we could try a little experiment, but it’d work best in real time. If you have access to the slack chat channel of Daobums we could work there. 

 

I appreciate the offer, but that won’t work for me - I need to know what this experiment entails as I’m working through a specific process right now, and don’t want to compromise it. 

[dwai]

Just now, freeform said:

 

I appreciate the offer, but that won’t work for me - I need to know what this experiment entails as I’m working through a specific process right now, and don’t want to compromise it. 

It’s just going to be sharing of presence. Nothing fancy. A demonstration of how the heart field works...I’ll connect with you and you can tell me what you feel/sense/see.  

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I appreciate the offer, but that won’t work for me - I need to know what this experiment entails as I’m working through a specific process right now, and don’t want to compromise it. 

 

What is your specific process? And how do you think it could be compromised by an experiment with someone?

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

What is your specific process? And how do you think it could be compromised by an experiment with someone?

 

Does it seem strange that I should ask?

 

I've had issues with it before - for example when a friend started doing ‘reiki stuff’ while giving me a simple shoulder massage. She accidentally absorbed some Yang Qi and started spazzing out on the floor, with everyone thinking she’s having an epileptic seizure. Took some delicate negotiation for the ambulance crew not to take her. And then some extra practice time for me to get rid of the pathogens she left in me! I stay away from reiki

 

At the moment I’m going through a period of consolidation in the LDT. My Qi needs to remain as sunk as possible. If the experiment causes my Qi to raise then it won’t do me any good.

 

My sensitivity to external Qi is low at the moment because I’m consolidating - so to be honest I probably wouldn’t experience much anyway.

[freeform]

34 minutes ago, dwai said:

It’s just going to be sharing of presence. Nothing fancy. A demonstration of how the heart field works...I’ll connect with you and you can tell me what you feel/sense/see.  

 

I appreciate the effort. I didn’t sense anything, but honestly it’s probably because I’m pretty ‘dense’ at the moment.

 

You’d probably have better luck connecting to a lump of clay! 

 

I'm not unfamiliar with Heart level connection. A Buddhist teacher worked with it quite extensively with me some years back. He called it a Heart Essence transmission. Was very nice. I also had a Balinese Hindu teacher that worked on this level.

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Does it seem strange that I should ask?

 

I've had issues with it before - for example when a friend started doing ‘reiki stuff’ while giving me a simple shoulder massage. She accidentally absorbed some Yang Qi and started spazzing out on the floor, with everyone thinking she’s having an epileptic seizure. Took some delicate negotiation for the ambulance crew not to take her. And then some extra practice time for me to get rid of the pathogens she left in me! I stay away from reiki

 

At the moment I’m going through a period of consolidation in the LDT. My Qi needs to remain as sunk as possible. If the experiment causes my Qi to raise then it won’t do me any good.

 

My sensitivity to external Qi is low at the moment because I’m consolidating - so to be honest I probably wouldn’t experience much anyway.

 

Not strange at all that you should ask Dwai.  I was just interested in what your process was that you thought could be affected. 

 

Very sorry to hear about your reiki friend. Can see how that would be a little freaky. If you dont mind my asking, how long ago did that happen?

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Not strange at all that you should ask Dwai.  I was just interested in what your process was that you thought could be affected. 

 

Very sorry to hear about your reiki friend. Can see how that would be a little freaky. If you dont mind my asking, how long ago did that happen?

 

She was perfectly fine really - was more just panicked.

 

This was about 3 years ago I think. I doubt it would provoke the same reaction now - my energy is a lot more consolidated these days. 

 

I wasn't expecting it to happen - I could just see that it was a zifa gong type reaction - not a fit.

 

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I appreciate the effort. I didn’t sense anything, but honestly it’s probably because I’m pretty ‘dense’ at the moment.

I didn’t really connect with you. Wouldn’t do that without your permission anyway. 

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

You’d probably have better luck connecting to a lump of clay! 

 I know few like that. Most people are so concentrated in their “selves/identities” that they can’t sense much. 

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

I'm not unfamiliar with Heart level connection. A Buddhist teacher worked with it quite extensively with me some years back. He called it a Heart Essence transmission. Was very nice. I also had a Balinese Hindu teacher that worked on this level.

Very cool. Did it involve you doing some work too or was It more a transmission from them to you? 

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

 I know few like that. Most people are so concentrated in their “selves/identities” that they can’t sense much. 

 

I think for most lay-people it’s much easier to live in the modern world if they’re not too energetically sensitive. 

 

You probably understand the Daoist path well enough to know that ‘concentrating on the self/identity’ is not a practice that you’d actually want to do.

 

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

Very cool. Did it involve you doing some work too or was It more a transmission from them to you? 

 

With the Buddhist teacher it was in a silent retreat setting in the Burmese jungle. It involved about 8hrs of sitting practice per day, and some work around the monastery gardens.  You could tell when the teacher was transmitting because you’d effortlessly slide into profound states of presence or compassion.

 

With the Hindu teacher it was also in a retreat setting, but not silent. It involved a practice that i think is unique to Balinese Hinduism - not seated... some aspects of zifa gong. His transmission was less subtle and would often result in roaring spontaneous laughter. 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

I think for most lay-people it’s much easier to live in the modern world if they’re not too energetically sensitive. 

Not really. It’s a lot easier to live, period, if we live with a greater grasp of all our faculties  (as opposed to oblivious of our capabilities)

1 minute ago, freeform said:

You probably understand the Daoist path well enough to know that ‘concentrating on the self/identity’ is not a practice that you’d actually want to do.

Usually it works quite sneakily. The ego has its way of trying to stay in control. Of course one should not be “concentrating” on the self/identity. But every activity undertaken in the modern world reinforces this. Even Spiritual practices when not tempered by an opening and expansion of the heart. That’s what the heart field practices do. Help us open and expand us beyond our limited self identities.

 

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

With the Buddhist teacher it was in a silent retreat setting in the Burmese jungle. It involved about 8hrs of sitting practice per day, and some work around the monastery gardens.  You could tell when the teacher was transmitting because you’d effortlessly slide into profound states of presence or compassion.

 

Sounds amazing  

 

1 minute ago, freeform said:

With the Hindu teacher it was also in a retreat setting, but not silent. It involved a practice that i think is unique to Balinese Hinduism - not seated... some aspects of zifa gong. His transmission was less subtle and would often result in roaring spontaneous laughter. 

My Tamil siddha yoga teacher had a few students like that. They’d sit in the class in meditation and suddenly break into spontaneous laughter. Never happened to me...

In any case, all these are essentially clearing of blockages and release of traumas. 

[freeform]

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

Usually it works quite sneakily. The ego has its way of trying to stay in control. Of course one should not be “concentrating” on the self/identity. But every activity undertaken in the modern world reinforces this. Even Spiritual practices when not tempered by an opening and expansion of the heart.

 

I think the ego is especially sneaky when one is engaged in spiritual practices. Whether heart based or not.

 

Different traditions deal with it differently. I don’t think Heart work is somehow devoid of delusion. I think it’s just as susceptible. 

 

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

My Tamil siddha yoga teacher had a few students like that. They’d sit in the class in meditation and suddenly break into spontaneous laughter. Never happened to me...

In any case, all these are essentially clearing of blockages and release of traumas. 

 

Yup - it’s just a clearing process. I think in the case of the Hindu teacher, he specifically directed the process through the heart centre, so that the blockages manifest as laughter as they come out. They’re less ‘sticky’ that way. It would often manifest as the whole room laughing hysterically - not just one or two people. I don’t think it was too healthy over a long term.

[dwai]

55 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I think the ego is especially sneaky when one is engaged in spiritual practices. Whether heart based or not.

 

 

See we agree on more things than it seemed initially....

55 minutes ago, freeform said:

Different traditions deal with it differently. I don’t think Heart work is somehow devoid of delusion. I think it’s just as susceptible. 

Depends on how you do it. And also depends on the underlying knowledge associated with the practice. Always good to remain vigilant. 

 

There can be people who experience profound spiritual states of cessation and samadhi and still remain mired in ignorance because they are missing the knowledge aspect. So that is also necessary. 

 

55 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yup - it’s just a clearing process. I think in the case of the Hindu teacher, he specifically directed the process through the heart centre, so that the blockages manifest as laughter as they come out. They’re less ‘sticky’ that way. It would often manifest as the whole room laughing hysterically - not just one or two people. I don’t think it was too healthy over a long term.

Yes...i think the biggest trap of these experience-only ways is the risk of getting addicted to the experiences. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Depends on how you do it. And also depends on the underlying knowledge associated with the practice. Always good to remain vigilant. 

 

 

Luckily, in Daoist training there’s no need to be vigilant - there are specific physiological milestones. (because let’s face it your mind is smart enough to run round vigilance).

 

So when you think you might be manifesting one of the virtues (De), you can have your teacher check. She can test you and then you’ll know whether you just thought you’ve acquired Wisdom or you actually have the sign for it and it really has manifested in you on all levels.

[Jeff]

43 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Luckily, in Daoist training there’s no need to be vigilant - there are specific physiological milestones. (because let’s face it your mind is smart enough to run round vigilance).

 

So when you think you might be manifesting one of the virtues (De), you can have your teacher check. She can test you and then you’ll know whether you just thought you’ve acquired Wisdom or you actually have the sign for it and it really has manifested in you on all levels.

 

Like what kind of tests?

[dwai]

57 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Luckily, in Daoist training there’s no need to be vigilant - there are specific physiological milestones. (because let’s face it your mind is smart enough to run round vigilance).

That seems a tad convenient...could be a mind “trick”  

57 minutes ago, freeform said:

So when you think you might be manifesting one of the virtues (De), you can have your teacher check. She can test you and then you’ll know whether you just thought you’ve acquired Wisdom or you actually have the sign for it and it really has manifested in you on all levels.

 

May I ask which Daoist system you follow? 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Like what kind of tests?

 

I’m sorry, but I’ve been asked not to give details publicly. 

 

But there are examples in Damo’s book.

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

That seems a tad convenient...could be a mind “trick”  

 

May I ask which Daoist system you follow? 

 

It is very convenient!

 

It’s not a mind trick because most of these signs are objective and often physical (can be seen and felt by anyone).

 

My main teacher is in a specific branch of the Dragon Gate lineage. I’ve been part of other alchemical Daoist lineages too. There are differences in the process, but a lot of the milestones and developmental signs are the same.