s1va

Vedantic non-dual vs. Abhinavagupta's non-dual

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21 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Is it just me or do those who follow AV seem to be like what? AV says the same thing as KS, Oh yeah, AV say's the same thing as Buddhism.

 

AV seems to have turned in to a catch all for some.

 

So either they are saying that KS was just a misguided attempt by some teachers slandering AV to create there own little lineage or those saying it is the same thing are wrong.

 

Which is it?

It is that the straw men being propped up about AV are just that...straw men. Personally I have a lot of interest in exploring actual differences and nuances of KS and AV.  Just the initial hump of actually clearly articulating AV doesn't seem to happen...always a half-baked understanding being portrayed as "fact"...

:)

 

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1 minute ago, dwai said:

Not my personal opinions. Just higher level knowledge of AV, taught to me by a bonafide master of AV. :)

Just because you don't know it, doesn't mean it is not right. 

 

Call it whatever you like, higher knowledge, etc.  Anything that blindly rejects other ideas and opinions, and claims only my idea and philosophy is the right one, all others are wrong, deficient views is not truly worthy in my opinion, no matter how bonafide it is!  It is also presumptuous and arrogant in my opinion to insist only my ideas are right and everything else is wrong and deficient.  I don't see any value in furthering this dialogue.  But you keep coming back insisting your ideas are the right ones and I don't know it.  I am not even saying they are right or wrong.  I  am simply stating that I don't subscribe to those ideas.

 

 

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Just now, s1va said:

 

Call it whatever you like, higher knowledge, etc.  Anything that blindly rejects other ideas and opinions, and claims only my idea and philosophy is the right one, all others are wrong, deficient views is not truly worthy in my opinion, no matter how bonafide it is!  It is also presumptuous and arrogant in my opinion to insist only my ideas are right and everything else is wrong and deficient.  I don't see any value in furthering this dialogue.  But you keep coming back insisting your ideas are the right ones and I don't know it.  I am not even saying they are right or wrong.  I  am simply stating that I don't subscribe to those ideas.

 

 

You miss the point and the possibility that perhaps you are too caught up in your opinions? It is not about my opinion. It is a fact. Everything I stated about AV are known to serious practitioners of AV. One has to go beyond the "Jagat Mithya" stage.

 

But I clearly see that we've reached an impasse now. Good luck with your comparison brother :) 

 

Love.

 

Dwai

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7 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is that the straw men being propped up about AV are just that...straw men. Personally I have a lot of interest in exploring actual differences and nuances of KS and AV.  Just the initial hump of actually clearly articulating AV doesn't seem to happen...always a half-baked understanding being portrayed as "fact"...

:)

 

 

From reading your posts my friend it seems that AV is the same as KS just bigger and better.

 

It is just ignorant to think there are differences even if KS masters clearly state over and over again that there are major differences in the systems and the ultimate realization.

 

So, the argument becomes they just didn't fully understand AV but once you do you will see that you are wrong and just misinformed. No matter what tradition you compare AV too. :)

Edited by Jonesboy
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5 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is that the straw men being propped up about AV are just that...straw men. Personally I have a lot of interest in exploring actual differences and nuances of KS and AV.  Just the initial hump of actually clearly articulating AV doesn't seem to happen...always a half-baked understanding being portrayed as "fact"...

:)

 

 

It looks like those that are arguing for AV simply can't argue the merits of their points without belittling  their opponents or quantifying them in one way or other as 'straw men propped up about AV', deficient ideas etc.  Or it is  some malicious intent!  And then others are accused of making up their minds before the discussion!

 

Wow, it is indeed amazing! Our own delusions.

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43 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

You can reject all of it as doctrine.  I would call that your opinion.  But just because some ideas differ from yours, if you accuse them as insincere, narrow and having an agenda, I would think it just reflects how shallow your ideas and beliefs truly are.  Do you think all those masters whose ideas differed from AV, were insincere, narrow and had an agenda?   It is okay to discuss the merits of ideas and philosophies, but you are starting to question and accuse people's intent because they don't comply with your ideas.

 

It's disingenuous to believe it's my opinion when the Vedas themselves admit the futility of description.

 

I believe the masters shared their relative experiences, and they are not invalid within apparent diversity. The disciple will be led to the teachings which most resonate with their particular facet of consciousness.

 

If my conclusions are disturbing, then one should prove my shallowness by actually acknowledging the explanations offered regarding the degrees of difference that seem to be found. Otherwise, one can only assume there is misunderstanding, or that there is simply refusal to acknowledge said explanations since they don't comply with their ideas that the supposed differences ultimately have any substantial reality, or the reluctant conclusion that one seems to belie their intentions here.

Edited by neti neti
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Or, the problem could be that some are convinced that only their philosophy or the system is the only right and all encompassing system that they are simply unwilling to listen to anything else that points to the contrary.

 

Indeed. :)

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1 minute ago, neti neti said:

 

I do, just not in the way you're thinking I agree. :lol:

You are at least consistent.

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Just now, s1va said:

You are at least consistent.

 

Almost as consistent as the never-ending comparisons of traditions,  ad nauseum. Lol.

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10 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

It's disingenuous to believe it's my opinion when the Vedas themselves admit the futility of description.

 

I believe the masters shared their relative experiences, and they are not invalid within apparent diversity. The disciple will be led to the teachings which most resonate with their particular facet of consciousness.

 

If my conclusions are disturbing, then one should prove my shallowness by actually acknowledging the explanations offered regarding the degrees of difference you seem to be finding. Otherwise, one can only assume there is misunderstanding, or that there is simply refusal to acknowledge said explanations since they do not comply with their ideas that the supposed differences ultimately have any substantial reality, or the reluctant conclusion that one seems to belie their intentions here.

 

For some of us what is stated is so obvious we don't see the need to prove by making any more arguments than what is made here already in this thread.  We just need to 'see' and understand Abhinavagupta's words and the differentiation.

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21 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

From reading your posts my friend it seems that AV is the same as KS just bigger and better.

 

It is just ignorant to think there are differences even if KS masters clearly state over and over again that there are major differences in the systems and the ultimate realization.

 

So, the argument becomes they just didn't fully understand AV but once you do you will see that you are wrong and just misinformed. No matter what tradition you compare AV too. :)

I'm merely stating facts as I know them. If you choose to call it my personal opinions, then that's your prerogative. However, it doesn't leave room for much of a discourse then.

 

I have no interest in showing one is greater than the other. For all I care, let KS be the best tradition in the world. I'm already studying it. My understanding is that it is not that dramatically different from AV. I can't help it as I read these threads and see how woefully incomplete the descriptions of AV are.

 

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20 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

It looks like those that are arguing for AV simply can't argue the merits of their points without belittling  their opponents or quantifying them in one way or other as 'straw men propped up about AV', deficient ideas etc.  Or it is  some malicious intent!  And then others are accused of making up their minds before the discussion!

 

Wow, it is indeed amazing! Our own delusions.

:D

When did I belittle your points? I just pointed out the inaccuracies. Our delusions indeed! Would you go so far as saying that your knowledge of AV is complete? That you are a Jivanamukta? 

 

As recently as last year, I thought my knowledge of AV was quite sound. How foolish I was to think that. There are more are more "secrets" that get revealed if we have shraddha and sincerity. ¬†This is parńĀ vidyńĀ we are discussing here...well beyond the realms of words and debates. The mysteries keep unfolding.¬†

 

 

Edited by dwai
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27 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

From reading your posts my friend it seems that AV is the same as KS just bigger and better.

 

It is just ignorant to think there are differences even if KS masters clearly state over and over again that there are major differences in the systems and the ultimate realization.

 

So, the argument becomes they just didn't fully understand AV but once you do you will see that you are wrong and just misinformed. No matter what tradition you compare AV too. :)

 

Jonesboy,  you do know that the KS lineage holder Swami Lakshmanjoo bluntly and without beating around the bush rejected and refuted Buddhist summations and conclusions, don't you? 

Edited by 3bob

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5 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

For some of us what is stated is so obvious we don't see the need to prove by making any more arguments than what is made here already in this thread.  We just need to 'see' and understand Abhinavagupta's words and the differentiation.

 

Yes, and it seems some choose to not 'see' when the words are dissected and supposed differentiations are obviously more like mere apparent degrees of separation.

Edited by neti neti
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2 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Yes, and it seems some choose to not 'see' when the words are dissected and supposed differentiations are obviously more like mere apparent degrees of separation.

 

Yes, there in lies two set of opinions.  Which is fine with me.  

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7 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Yes, there in lies two set of opinions.  Which is fine with me.  

 

Now we disagree. It's more like two apparent realities which are really one, and the ability for us to reconcile the apparent differences relies upon proper understanding.

Edited by neti neti

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10 minutes ago, dwai said:

:D

When did I belittle your points? I just pointed out the inaccuracies. Our delusions indeed! 

 

 

It is not belittling my points, but personifying and labeling any opposing ideas.  I guess I have said enough on this.  As I keep repeating I don't see any point in furthering this line of dialogue.  But since you keep coming back extending the same line of talk, I am just responding out of politiness to show I am not ignoring these posts.  But I have to stop at some point.

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14 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

Jonesboy,  you do know that the KS lineage holder Swami Lakshmanjoo bluntly and without beating around the bush rejected and refuted Buddhist summations and conclusions, don't you? 

 

I do, I was referring to conversations I have had with people about AV and Buddhism :)

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Just now, neti neti said:

 

Now we disagree. It's more like two apparent realities which are really one, and the ability for us to reconcile the apparent differences lie in proper understanding.

 

Exactly.  I am also saying we are in disagreement, therefore the two opinions.  Now, are we in agreement about the disagreement? :D

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2 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

It is not belittling my points, but personifying and labeling any opposing ideas.  I guess I have said enough on this.  As I keep repeating I don't see any point in furthering this line of dialogue.  But since you keep coming back extending the same line of talk, I am just responding out of politiness to show I am not ignoring these posts.  But I have to stop at some point.

Okay very well :) 

I appreciate you not ignoring these posts and I hope i have not come across as being impolite in my responses either. Again, my intent was not to be either condescending or ad-hominem anyone (I think I've done neither). Please carry on with your exposition without worrying about me. I'll just be a fly on the wall (and maybe buzz around a bit when driven to it). 

 

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5 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Exactly.  I am also saying we are in disagreement, therefore the two opinions.  Now, are we in agreement about the disagreement? :D

 

I agree we disagree that they are two opinions. :)

Edited by neti neti
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1 minute ago, neti neti said:

 

I agree we disagree that they are two opinions. 

May be you like doing this :lol:

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40 minutes ago, dwai said:

I have no interest in showing one is greater than the other. For all I care, let KS be the best tradition in the world. I'm already studying it. My understanding is that it is not that dramatically different from AV. I can't help it as I read these threads and see how woefully incomplete the descriptions of AV are.

 

 

Seriously, I fear loss of sleep if some of the atrocious wrongs aren't righted sometimes. Lol.

 

But when you try, you're automatically labeled the bad guy for denying this or that text with hardly any attempt to acknowledge what was said.

 

Go figure. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. ^_^

Edited by neti neti
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