Buddhism is ‘liberation through Yin’, and turns you into a ghost forever. Agree or disagree?

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Miroku]

13 minutes ago, Wells said:

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=837

"There is a teaching of rainbow body outside of Dzogchen in the Vajrayana in conjunction with a particular Highest Yoga Tantra practice also. I mentioned this to Malcolm/Namdrol on eSangha and his response was that actually Dzogchen rainbow body was different from the rainbow body result from this particular HYT."

Oh, I didn't know that. I just knew that it is possible, but didn't know many details. Thank yo uvery much for you corrections, Wells!

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Miroku]

4 hours ago, Wells said:

 

You're welcome.

Dzogchen works through self-liberation, Tantra works through transformation.

Different methods, (somehow) different results I would guess.

...or the differentiation is just of intellectual and dogmatic nature.

Are there really tantric sources which describe the dissolution of the physical body? Out of interest, I have searched for such possible sources in the past and hadn't found any.

Well I know that in a lineage of white manjushri I have received there is supposed to be a master who achieved rainbow body through the practice. That is all I know. But I wouldn't be surprised if there were some practices to integrate with elements, but seems like most probably there are not, so dzogchen is the only vehicel that leads to it for sure. 

[steve]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:10 PM, Mudfoot said:

Buddhist Tantra say you should have a union of method and wisdom, which seems to mean a union of energy and Emptiness. Or is it only when you do this that you have correct view, and a person who only sought for Emptiness missed half of the deal? 

 

Method and wisdom are not separate except for in our minds.

A person seeking only Emptiness is at risk to fall into nihilism.

A direct realization of the Wisdom of Emptiness, however, is also a direct realization of Bodhicitta.

 

On 11/26/2017 at 1:36 AM, Mudfoot said:

So, if (!, I'm new on this subject) I get it right,  you energize upp your system ("method"), which leads to an experience of Emptiness ("wisdom"), and then you unify these experiences as to remove the duality between them? 

 

Not quite, a realization of emptiness means that there is no one there to unify anything.

You dissolve the one trying to unify and the duality is already gone.

That is the meaning and (non)method of the Great Perfection.

 

On 11/26/2017 at 1:36 AM, Mudfoot said:

 

And since, if you dump the lingo and cut to the chase, this seems really close to Nei Dan, even a daoist would not have so much to critizise? 

 

Precisely - I mentioned that briefly on the thread about what is incorrect about Buddhism.

[Mudfoot]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Precisely - I mentioned that briefly on the thread about what is incorrect about Buddhism.

Yes, I saw it 

I felt that it needed to be stated again (and again),  because this site is dominated by daoist thought (at least the parts I normally hang out) and many seems to belive you either do Emptiness meditation or stand in the low Ma Bu when you follow a Buddhist tradition, and it is more complicated than that. 

 

So you will see me stating it again 

[steve]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

Yes, I saw it 

I felt that it needed to be stated again (and again),  because this site is dominated by daoist thought (at least the parts I normally hang out) and many seems to belive you either do Emptiness meditation or stand in the low Ma Bu when you follow a Buddhist tradition, and it is more complicated than that. 

 

So you will see me stating it again 

 

Unfortunately, there is much "Daoist thought" that is not Daoist at all...

I think much of that arises from a lack of deeper understanding.

Most Daoist writings are not very clear or direct and not very easy to penetrate.

The very nature of the Chinese language is quite ambiguous and it is easy to misunderstand the original sources, let alone the translations into Western language which is far more concrete.

In addition, most people studying and practicing Daoism in the West are doing so through books and similar resources without the benefit of a credible master to help them decode and interpret the writings. 

Finally, the Daoist method is not one of studying and reading and understanding.

It is one of being, eg meditative practice. 

If one doesn't spend the majority of their time in skillful practice, all the information in the world is of little value.

That last criticism (and all the rest) are equally valid for Bön and Buddhism, lest someone feel like I'm being sectarian.

[Mudfoot]

I found both the Nei Jing Tu and Wang Mu's book on nei dan more interesting after delving into tantric stuff. 

 

That is just my interpretation of what happens in my practice though, a daoist trained person might disagree with my conclusions. 

 

But,  relatively seen, I agree that the tantric material seems to be clearer in its presentation. 

[C T]

The devotional side of tantra is where some practitioners get stuck, but that is usually due to misunderstanding. 

[steve]

3 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

But,  relatively seen, I agree that the tantric material seems to be clearer in its presentation. 

 

Even the most secretive of Buddhist and Bön teachings, dzogchen, are very clear and direct expositions of base, path, and fruition as they see it. The Daoist writings are far more symbolic and elusive - filled with metaphor and euphemisms. I suspect the Daoists wrote in that way in order to hide the meanings from the uninitiated whereas the Buddhists and Bönpos relied on the fact that the teachings were only made available to select individuals. In my own tradition, the dzogchen teachings were only passed down from one master to one student in the early days and then only to monks and lay people who demonstrated a particular aptitude and profound dedication after that. That was often determined by signs and dreams and so forth. With the Chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet, these highly secretive methods are being spread as wide and far as possible to prevent their loss. In retrospect it's almost like the transmission over time was a way to maintain these teachings, in a time when they were not as critically necessary, to bring them forward to the present day when they're desperately needed on a wider scale to avert large scale human catastrophe (my biased perspective, of course).

 

Edited to add: In the dzogchen tradition the teachings are also considered to be self-secret, meaning that if a person is not adequately prepared or does not have a proclivity for them, there will be no understanding even if they have access to the most direct instruction possible. I've seen the truth in this. It's fascinating.

Edited November 27, 2017 by steve