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Nungali

Chinese Bones

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Chinese Bones  - and other strange topics that have arisen  .

 

I have made a few posts about :  the old  Aryan  'Empire'    that stretched  from  (now ) western China to (now ) Turkey  ,  'Caucasian Chinese mummies ' , how the Aryans were not to be defined by race or ethnicity and put up a picture of a painting of an old Aryan King from Pishdadian dynasties ( before history ) in very much  Chinese looking robes features and hairstyle.

 

(I have also seen  much ancient 'Persian' art  that looks  very 'oriental' ) 

 

These  'divining bones' were found in China with a cuneiform script carved into them and the translations done on them so far seem to indicate they are copies of, or similar to,  the first  declarations made in the  Cyrus the Great's    Cylinder Seals .

 

In 1928, Xue Shenwei, a Chinese traditional doctor was shown two inscribed fossilized horse bones that bore a script that was unknown to him [and presumably to the then owner(s) of the artifacts as well].

 

Nearly all known Chinese oracle bones are from Xiaotun (also Yinxu or Yin Xu) located 3 km north-west of Anyang the ancient capital of the Late Shang Dynasty. Anyang itself is located in the northern province of Henan not far from the eastern terminus of the Silk Roads (the Aryan trade roads), namely, the cities of Zhengzhou and Luoyang. This region would have been very familiar to Iranian traders especially Sogdians who had colonies along the Silk Roads in China. "

 

cyrus_cylinder_chinese_horse_bone+-+Copy.jpg
 

 

http://zoroastrianheritage.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/cyrus-edict-chinese-cuneiform-bones.html

Edited by Nungali
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

I have made a few posts about :  the old  Aryan  'Empire'   

 

You mean like Neo-Nazi b.s.?

 

 

Quote

 

Aryan Race in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan,and India ...

https://www.stormfront.org › General › Culture and Customs
Sep 22, 2009 - 5 posts - ‎5 authors

Unfortunately the Empire of the old Aryan Empire (the Persian empire) became corrupt and was defeated by invading barbarian Arabs.

 

 

 

Wow you really do!

 

 

Quote

 

Ancient Aryans of China - Stormfront

https://www.stormfront.org › General › Science and Technology
Apr 14, 2017 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors

Scattered across the desert sands of the Tarim Basin in present-day Xinjiang were mummies so different from the standard East Asian ...

 

 

So you're just lifting b.s. from a neo-nazi website?

 

 

Edited by voidisyinyang

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https://books.google.com/books?id=fHYnGde4BS4C&pg=PA486&lpg=PA486&dq=tocharian+indo-aryan&source=bl&ots=qD-mHAhzN_&sig=Y4-ETpEPYSOno0cWpenSteyMfTg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJl6PO_-vUAhWmw1QKHTkgBmcQ6AEITjAG#v=onepage&q=tocharian indo-aryan&f=false

 

So this book says "proto-Indo-Aryan" spread into the "subcontinent" while "proto-Tocharian" stayed in Central Asia.

 

So I don't know what the whole Aryan neo-nazi b.s. is about - except to whine about "mongol" or "arab" contamination of the pure blood. haha. disgusting.

 

 

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Two Buddhist monks on a mural of the Bezeklik Thousand Buddha Caves near Turpan, Xinjiang, China, 9th century AD; although Albert von Le Coq (1913) assumed the blue-eyed, red-haired monk was a Tocharian,[69] modern scholarship has identified similar Caucasian figures of the same cave temple (No. 9) as ethnic Sogdians,[70] who inhabited Turpan as an ethnic minority community during the phases of Tang Chinese (7th–8th century) and Uyghur rule (9th–13th century).[71]

 

Not the same.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia

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Recent archaeological finds have shown that the late Shang Dynasty used horses, chariots, bows and practiced horse burials very similar to the steppe peoples to the west. Indo-European technological influence on Chinese culture at the time include the introduction of the domesticated horse, iron technology. and wheeled vehicles Other cultural influences resulting from Indo-European influence include fighting styles, head-and-hoof rituals, art motifs and myths. These significant Indo-European influences on China at the time have led the Sinologist Christopher I. Beckwith to propose that the "idea of writing" in Shang China might have been a result of Indo-European influence, that Indo-Europeans "may even have been responsible for the foundation of the Shang Dynasty," and that Old Chinese of the Oracle bone script contained influences from Indo-European languages. While the Old Chinese word for honey is generally accepted as a loanword from Tocharian, Beckwith suggests that many more Old Chinese words are of Tocharian origin, claiming a similar Indo-European influence on Tibeto-Burman.
Christopher I. Beckwith proposes that the name of the Qiang, the main foreign enemies of the Shang Dynasty, has an Indo-European etymology. From the modern Chinese Qiang , Sinologist Edwin G. Pulleyblank reconstructs the Old Chinese *klaŋ, which Beckwith compares to the Tocharian word klānk, meaning "to ride, go by wagon", as in "to ride off to hunt from a chariot", so that Qiang could actually mean "charioteer". The Oracle Bones note that the Qiang were skilled charioteers and makers of Oracle Bones. According to Beckwith, it is possible that the clan (Jiang) of Jiang Yuan, mother of Houji, founder of the Zhou dynasty, which succeeded the Shang, was related or identical to the Qiang.
The Sinologist Edwin G. Pulleyblank has suggested that the Yuezhi, the Wusun the Dayuan, the Kangju and the people of Yanqi, could have been Tocharian-speaking. Of these the Yuezhi are generally held to have been Tocharians. The Yuezhi were originally settled in the arid grasslands of the eastern Tarim Basin area, in what is today Xinjiang and western Gansu, in China. After the Yuezhi were defeated by the Xiongnu, in the 2nd century BC, a small group, known as the Little Yuezhi, fled to the south, later spawning the Jie people who dominated the Later Zhao until their complete extermination by Ran Min in the Wei–Jie war. The majority of the Yuezhi however migrated west to the Ili Valley, where they displaced the Sakas (Scythians). Driven from the Ili Valley shortly afterwards by the Wusun, the Yuezhi migrated to Sogdia and then Bactria, where they are often identified with the Tókharoi (Τοχάριοι) and Asioi of Classical sources. They then expanded into northern South Asia, where one branch of the Yuezhi founded the Kushan Empire. The Kushan empire stretched from Turfan in the Tarim Basin to Pataliputra on the Gangetic plain at its greatest extent, and played an important role in the development of the Silk Road and the transmission of Buddhism to China. Tocharian languages continued to be spoken in the city-states of the Tarim Basin, only becoming extinct in the Middle Ages.

 

 

Notice - no mention of Aryan.

 

Still interesting claim by Beckwith.

 

https://www.triposo.com/poi/T__b1a0de328bcc

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Between 2009 and 2015, the remains of 92 individuals found at the Xiaohe Tomb complex were analyzed for Y-DNA and mtDNA markers. The results of these analyses suggest an admixed population, with maternal lineages originating from both East Asia and West Eurasia, whereas the paternal lineages all originated from West Eurasia.[11] The geographic location of this admixing is unknown, although south Siberia is likely.[11]

 

 

Dang - they didn't maintain their "pure" Aryan blood! Hilarious.

 

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Tocharians.html

 

 

Quote

 

the Most beautiful race in East Asia:- Muslim Tocharian white aryans of ...

Nov 26, 2014 - Uploaded by Tocharian Power

Even after the dark skinned han chinese and mongol genghis khan barbarian raped the tocharians for their ...

 

 

Oops - don't tell these Aryan idiots - burst their racist neo-nazi bubble.

 

 

Edited by voidisyinyang

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Early inhabitants of the Tarim Basin

File:Afanasevo provisional.png
The geographic area the Afanasevo culture covered

J. P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair argue that the Tocharian languages were introduced to the Tarim and Turpan basins from the Afanasevo culture to their immediate north. The Afanasevo culture (c. 3500 – 2500 BC) displays cultural and genetic connections with the Indo-European-associated cultures of the Central Asian steppe yet predates the specifically Indo-Iranian-associated Andronovo culture (c. 2000 – 900 BC) enough to isolate the Tocharian languages from Indo-Iranian linguistic innovations like satemization.[8][9]

 

http://infogalactic.com/info/Tocharians

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Posted (edited)

https://books.google.com/books?id=x5J9rn8p2-IC&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=tocharian+shang+indo-european&source=bl&ots=VO0mH17hpw&sig=88yvMZGBrV4668OYhoBDtxFwbaI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR8vvlmezUAhUF7yYKHQM_CAUQ6AEIWjAJ#v=onepage&q=tocharian shang indo-european&f=false

 

So this notes how the Shang had interaction with the chariot Indo-European cultures - and the oracle bones recorded this.

 

http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780511079047&ss=exc

 

This book documents the oracle bones of East Asian origin - not Indo-European.

Chapter Seven, "The Emergence of Neolithic Elites", begins by looking at cultures (Hong-shan, Ta-wen-kou, Liang-chou):

 

Quote

Noted for their amazing jade artifacts. Trends towards status differentiation, craft specialization and public architecture are evident in these societies. p. 108

It continues by looking at Lung-shan cultures whose, "Walled settlements, and a sudden proliferation of projectile points," p. 113 are among the factors indicating increased violence. Human sacrifice and, "The custom of heat-cracking animal scapulae for divination purposes" p. 116 also appear. Such divination was, "Already in use in the Fuhe culture of the eastern Mongolian Plateau in 3700 BC," and, "Was adopted by all the Longshan cultures and also Qijia in the far northwest during the 3rd millennium BC." p. 116

Quote

. Uninscribed oracle bones found at Chengziyai provided an even more direct link between the Longshan and Shang, since it was the inscribed oracle bones which ultimately distinguished ancient Chinese culture from other parts of the world.

 

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34717&PID=703541&SID=65za1d34dfbdzbzc26zc2fe1dd2czfd6#703541

Edited by voidisyinyang

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https://books.google.com/books?id=2cX4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PR15&lpg=PR15&dq=andronovo+shang&source=bl&ots=QjlJwIf0W3&sig=6GIHaaYTRwFA643y7hygxmVlJpA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjoyNjGnOzUAhUqxVQKHdPxCBIQ6AEILjAC#v=onepage&q=shang&f=false

 

So Victor Mair who has the most credible research on Indo-European influence of Chinese culture - states how the recurve bow for horses was most likely a Shang Chinese invention that went West.

 

 

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http://en.mehrnews.com/news/41240/China-s-Cyrus-Cylinder-extracts-spark-debate-in-academia

 

So the oracle bones in question are dated - not the Shang dynasty - but the much later -

 

Quote

“If the objects are proven authentic, the discovery will begin to transform our knowledge about relations between the Near East, especially the Achaemenid Empire, and China during the first millennium, in particular during the Eastern Zhou Dynasty (770-221 BC),” he added

 

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The Shang dynasty capital discovered at Anyang was the final in a series of capital transitions which moved them around the map of China. This was not unlike the move of the Ming capital from Nanjing to Beijing. Archaeologists were caught by surprise that at Anyang ancient priests carved their famous oracle script on animal bone fragments for the purpose of divination. The bones which bore inscriptions had contained a treasure trove of important details about the ancient Chinese such as food, rituals, battles, celebrations, etc. Because much of the vocabulary on these divinatory items have been identified through linguistics and literary epistemological studies it is undoubtedly certain that the implementation of Chinese writing in present time can be traced back to oracle script itself.

 

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/42207-Sinitic-Civilization-began-in-3000-BC-in-Liangzhu

 

Quote

The language of Shang was a highly-creolized lingua franca based on languages of the Southeast Asian type. Sinitic is a result of the imposition of the Sino-Tibetan language of the Zhou on a population speaking this lingua franca, resulting in a language with substantially Sino-Tibetan lexicon and relict morphology, but Southeast Asian basic syntax."

 

Quote

"Even if those signs on the stones were characters, they were simply from
a long dead east Asian country before the Middle Kingdom existed
," he said
on Sina Weibo, China's version of the social network Twitter."
https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/pipermail/mclc/2013-July/002034.html

 

 

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Posted (edited)

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vo7TmTbE-t0C&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=andronovo+shang&source=bl&ots=jVcWlhlBCi&sig=gx1SBfF--nwLkJDKHsB8keEy9xU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjoyNjGnOzUAhUqxVQKHdPxCBIQ6AEIQjAH#v=onepage&q=andronovo shang&f=false

 

Ancient China and Its Enemies: The Rise of Nomadic Power in East Asian History

By Nicola Di Cosmo

 

So the chariots from the near east - and in central asia were first used for prestige - for aristocratic burials - and this was the case for the Shang as well.

 

 

Edited by voidisyinyang

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I once upon a time I considered defining myself as a member of the Aryan race, which I am, but the term is now too closely linked to the Nazis and I just couldn't do it.

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Posted (edited)

Aryan is just a term that various pre-Second World War scholars gave to the wider Indo-European family. That the National Socialists may have used the term is irrelevant to the validity of the term. Some retort that Aryan specifically refers to the Indo-Aryans of Persia and India, and this in part is true, but it also has a cross cultural referent and cognate in other Indo-European cultures. One example of this is the pan-Indo-European or pan-Aryan god Aryaman, who in the Avestan is Airyaman, appears as the legendary king Eremon in the Irish, and likely is related to the Irmin of the Germanic tribes. The freemen and nobles of Irelend were bóaire or "cattle lords" and the same cognate is connected to the Greek "aristos" as in "aristocracy."

 

That these ancient Aryans  prior to admixture with other population groups were of a Nordic European type is really undeniable to anyone who studies the matter without bias....the main source of controversy and denial in this area is due to Second World War. Prior to this it was accepted by most scholars including often Indian scholars and they were working with less evidence than we now possess.

 

One of the most solid pieces of evidence is the Tarimm mummies, showing the Far Eastern Indo-Europeans had a similar appearance to those in Europe. The frequency of this phenotype among various isolated people such as the Pamiris, Kalash, various Afghans, various Kurds, etc. lends further confirmation to this fact. Further evidence is the presence of this Northern European racial type among all the various Indo-European peoples to varying degrees (various ancient Greeks, Romans, Armenians, Kurds, Persians, Indians, Thracians, Celts, Germanics, Slavs, Balts, etc.) but the absence of other types, such as the more normative Indian type, the Mediterranean and Near Eastern types, etc. in other groups...in other words, it is the only pan-Indo-European type, even if it is now a minority among non-Europeans.

 

That these people had an impact on Chinese religion seems quite likely in regards to early Daoism and certain in relation to Buddhism of course (earliest sources describe Bodhidharma as a "red haired blue eyed barbarian.") Victor H. Mair proposes an Indo-European origin of the word "Dao" itself and Kunlun, a concept matching Mt. Olympus or Sumeru, likely has Tocharian etymological origins. The myth of Pangu which matches that of Purusa and Ymir in the Norse (as well as medieval Irish myths regarding Adam) is another example. Finally, while perhaps not the result of direct influence but rather dealing with the same objective realities, it is interesting to note how similar the cosmology of the Norse myths is to that of Daosim as this man explains (albeit there are different interpretations given and terms used than those he uses):

 

 

Edited by Kongming
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Posted (edited)

32 minutes ago, Kongming said:

That these ancient Aryans  prior to admixture with other population groups were of a Nordic European type is really undeniable to anyone who studies the matter without bias....the main source of controversy and denial in this area is due to Second World War. Prior to this it was accepted by most scholars including often Indian scholars and they were working with less evidence than we now possess.

 

Didn't everyone, then and now (including the Indians), believe that the Aryans originated from the Caucasus mountains? They began to expand around the Amu Darya and then invaded Iran, India and Western China from there.

 

In fact, the nordics don't even have the R1 (Indo-European/Aryan) genotype that is common in nations descended from the 'Aryans'.

 

Quote

 (earliest sources describe Bodhidharma as a "red haired blue eyed barbarian.")

What sources?

Edited by Ryan94
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1 hour ago, Ryan94 said:

 

Didn't everyone, then and now (including the Indians), believe that the Aryans originated from the Caucasus mountains? They began to expand around the Amu Darya and then invaded Iran, India and Western China from there.

 

In fact, the nordics don't even have the R1 (Indo-European/Aryan) genotype that is common in nations descended from the 'Aryans'.

 

It's not about Nordics as in the people of Scandinavia, although the Germanic culture was spread there with R1 genetics which do exist in substantial number across Scandinavia. Its about what me may perhaps describe as "Nordish" or "Northern European" features, namely being Caucasoids with fair skin, hair ranging in colors but possessing red and blonde hair, and light eyes. Of course not every single Indo-European to the man would look like this, but it is interesting to note for further confirmation of the reality of this type that the upper castes of Northern India where there is higher concentration of R1 genetics also happens to be where you find higher incidences of light eyes, fairer skin, etc. 

 

That said the Proto-Indo-European homeland is still a matter of debate, though most favor the Caucasus or steppes of Ukraine/Russia.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ryan94 said:

 

What sources?

 

I don't recall which sources offhand, though a quick search on Google Books for "Bodhidharma red hair" turns up some results to pursue.

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On 7/3/2017 at 11:34 AM, voidisyinyang said:

 

You mean like Neo-Nazi b.s.?

 

 

 

 

Wow you really do!

 

 

 

So you're just lifting b.s. from a neo-nazi website?

 

 

 

 

You really should get an education   ( from academia and NOT youtube !  )... and some glasses  ; 

 

I specially  wrote in the opening  post  .... for ignoramus such as you  ;

 

I have posted here  elsewhere    " how the Aryans were not to be defined by race or ethnicity " . 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Kongming said:

Aryan is just a term that various pre-Second World War scholars gave to the wider Indo-European family. That the National Socialists may have used the term is irrelevant to the validity of the term. Some retort that Aryan specifically refers to the Indo-Aryans of Persia and India, and this in part is true, but it also has a cross cultural referent and cognate in other Indo-European cultures.

 

 

 

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only Indic and Iranian languages explicitly affirm the term as a self-designation referring to the entirety of their people, whereas the same Proto-Indo-European root (*aryo-) is the basis for Greek and Germanic word forms which seem only to denote the ruling elite of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) society

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

 

So I think you wanting to claim Aryan for Proto-Indo-Europeans is blatantly racist.

 

Quote

this term had come to be widely used in a racist context referring to a hypothesized white master race, culminating with the pogroms of the Nazis in Europe. Subsequently, the term Aryan as a general term for Indo-Europeans has been largely abandoned by scholars (though the term Indo-Aryan is still used to refer to the branch that settled in Southern Asia).[10]

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

You really should get an education   ( from academia and NOT youtube !  )... and some glasses  ; 

 

I specially  wrote in the opening  post  .... for ignoramus such as you  ;

 

I have posted here  elsewhere    " how the Aryans were not to be defined by race or ethnicity " . 

 

 

 

Quote

only Indic and Iranian languages explicitly affirm the term as a self-designation referring to the entirety of their people, whereas the same Proto-Indo-European root (*aryo-) is the basis for Greek and Germanic word forms which seem only to denote the ruling elite of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) society

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

 

So I think you wanting to claim Aryan for Proto-Indo-Europeans is blatantly racist.

 

Quote

this term had come to be widely used in a racist context referring to a hypothesized white master race, culminating with the pogroms of the Nazis in Europe. Subsequently, the term Aryan as a general term for Indo-Europeans has been largely abandoned by scholars (though the term Indo-Aryan is still used to refer to the branch that settled in Southern Asia).[10]

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15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I once upon a time I considered defining myself as a member of the Aryan race, which I am, but the term is now too closely linked to the Nazis and I just couldn't do it.

 

 

  .....      there is no Aryan  'race'  , it is a cultural designation  as in PIE  that describes language and culture   .....    

 

If peeps can get off their aberrant Nazi   brainwashing , they might realise there was once a country called Aria . Thats were the word comes from 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(region)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariana

 

Image result for Ancient Aria  map

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20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

  .....      there is no Aryan  'race'  , it is a cultural designation  as in PIE  that describes language and culture   .....    

 

If peeps can get off their aberrant Nazi   brainwashing ,

 

Image result for Ancient Aria  map

 

Quote

If these languages and culture are similar, the hypothesis went that these must have come from the same group of people. Since no such name existed for this group, the visiting German scholars named them Aryans - from the Sanskrit word for noble, pure.

 

Quote

Right now, only a few rare white supremists use the term outside of India & Iran.

 

Quote

Aryans had noble virtues

 

So we have a self-circular racist logical tautology.

 

https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-actual-Aryans-Europeans-Iranians-or-Indians

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6 hours ago, Kongming said:

 

It's not about Nordics as in the people of Scandinavia, although the Germanic culture was spread there with R1 genetics which do exist in substantial number across Scandinavia. Its about what me may perhaps describe as "Nordish" or "Northern European" features, namely being Caucasoids with fair skin, hair ranging in colors but possessing red and blonde hair, and light eyes. Of course not every single Indo-European to the man would look like this, but it is interesting to note for further confirmation of the reality of this type that the upper castes of Northern India where there is higher concentration of R1 genetics also happens to be where you find higher incidences of light eyes, fairer skin, etc. 

 

In 'old school' anthropology  Caucasian was one of the main ( 5 I think)   'racial' designations ; their characteristics were  basically, a wide range of skin tone colours from white to brown,  mixed hair colours (but included 'red' )  and mixed  eye color. 

 

I am eben down on the 'European' designation as in  PIE  , in   languages, religions and peoples  ( ie.  Proto Indo European ) and prefer the newer designation some are trying to replace it with  PII  - Proto Indo Iranian ,  which described the pre and post stages of their cultures better.   Any European  culture    came much  much later 

 

 

6 hours ago, Kongming said:

 

That said the Proto-Indo-European homeland is still a matter of debate, though most favor the Caucasus or steppes of Ukraine/Russia.

 

'Homeland'  .....   or  Urheimat ?        If we are talking linguistics - its urheimat  ?  A very different concept 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urheimat#Indo-European_homelands

 

I am not a single answer sort of guy . I have studied these cultures fairly deeply and the archaeological evidence in the field indicates   to and from dynamics, different peoples, even origins in that area going back to the paleolithic. We have evidence of an 'Indus Valley Culture'  having a trading post ... heaps north of the Kush , up in 'Bactria ' , way before any PIE  movement into  into NE India sub-continent . 

 

Those that study this (mostly from Russia   and/or the area in question) see the area as a third centre of human development and the first urban complexes, along with  Tigres and Euphrates Valleys and the NIle Valley.  

 

Ref ;   https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfCivilizationsOfCentralAsiaTheDawnOfCivilizationEarliest

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Kongming said:

 

I don't recall which sources offhand, though a quick search on Google Books for "Bodhidharma red hair" turns up some results to pursue.

 

 

I also remind people that I am NOT suggesting  Europeans 'Aryans' or anyone else  'civilised' China .  

 

I mean ,  I even talked about a Chinese looking Emperor   from part of the 'Aryan' Pishdadian Empires !  

 

But I am sure some people   here  will read that and hallucinate their own meanings into it .  ( with all the rabid foaming and insulting language and giant bolded fonts that go with it ;) 

 

 

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