juliank

Science and the Future of Non-Duality

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Curious if anyone on this board has been tracking the work of Jeffery Martin.

He's got a new interview on Buddha at the Gas Pump. It's a long interview, over 2 hours which I find fascinating, but the TL:DR version is...

 

 

Essentially, he's a Harvard trained scientist who spent the last 10 years of his life collecting data from thousands of individuals who are living from what he terms "persistent non- symbolic consciousness" aka non-duality. 

 

As far as I know, no scientist from a mainstream university like Harvard has ever studied or analyzed this topic. Primarily, because there is no money from it, and it would also be seen as "woo woo" or professional suicide. Dr. Martin is independently wealthy, so had "no skin in the academic game" and did this study more as an answer to his own existential yearning...

 

I know that many on here are familiar with Daniel Ingram, and his mission to make the path more empirical, accessible, and free of clutter.

 

This man has taken it to another level by literally studying thousands of leading mystics, saints, sages, along with other individuals who wouldn't fit that typology, but either through grace or sheer rigor have transitioned into non-duality. Additionally, he has created a course that weaves together the "best practices" from all his research to help others transition into non-duality. 

 

I live in the Bay Area, where Mr. Martin is connected to circles I run in, and I personally know credible sources that have taken the course and say it does indeed, work. What does that mean, work? That is to say, they at least transitioned into Location 1 on the non-dual spectrum. If you aren't familiar with the terminology, watch the last 30 minutes of the interview to get a sense of how he has mapped the different "locations" of non dual consciousness according to major developmental, cognitive, and emotional markers to get a sense of what I'm talking about...

 

Why do I post this here? I'm curious what others think of this endeavor, and it's implications for the possibility of a global awakening at an accelerated rate. If there is a way to "engineer awakening" via science --which this man has claimed to do-- and which I know will trigger some on this board who will spit out their coffee at the idea of engineering the sacred cows that they have a deep identification with (and which I do as well to a degree...) what does this mean for the future of those involved in this type of work?

 

Thoughts?

Edited by juliank
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Their is a great deal of what I would call mechanical engineering that is definitely helpful in bringing one to an awakened state.

This is basically what is referenced to here.

 

Mechanical engineering can be such things as learning not to participate in mind looping. Not participating in emotional repetitions based in future or past. Mantra is a mechanical means of not participating in head noise. Physical positions and geometric position of the body are mechanical means for removing certain energetic blocks.

 

This type of engineering is extremely fruitful and we will make great strides in this as we already are.

 

The engineering which is more manipulation into very fine channels and energetic systems that need a hands off approach are a hindrance to both Awakening and movement into abiding in it and Enlightening.

 

His discussion and work deals with Awakening - in reality this is Huge and yet this is really just stopping the participation in the noise and ones positions. Fred Davis also interviewed in BatGap.com basically Awakens people in this way and is very effective statistically. However both as stated can bring fairly shallow short lived Awakening but none the less they can bring about Awakening. Settling into the newness of it and abiding in stillness takes more than just having it happen - if it is simply done to a "general experimental group" the overall staying power of the participants in an Awakened state will fade pretty rapidly from most.

 

Even if it is done to a fairly avid group of seekers - not one of then understands what is about to happen to them - no concept is remotely close to what occurs.

 

The Engineering to steer clear of is somewhat like the scene we often see in movies where someone must diffuse a bomb and they have to decide which wire to cut. Seekers are often trying to manipulate wires and explosives inside them - with no real knowledge of what they are doing. And like the person that goes on the "potatoes and vinegar diet for 10 months - they end up at the doctors and are asked "what the hell were you thinking?"

 

Engineering such things as our diet - intake of physical food, drink, air - and media, social company, visual horizon , tension - these are very positive engineering concerns. Pretending we know what to do internally in manipulating subtle bodies is something we are very far from packaging into a specific "doing" as it requires non-doing on the higher levels and in most of the mundane levels.

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I looked into his ebook The God Formula and the formula is as follows

 

Visualization

 

+

 

Emotion

 

+

 

Release

 

= Manifestation

 

I guess it works on some stage but like he says for 10% of people it doesn't. Also there are a lot of methods that do not rely on visualization but are effective.

 

Regarding scientific study on non duality this blog is good

 

http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com

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Science cannot sustain nonduality as it is not a "state" (even if it can help trigger it). For anyone to stabilize in nonduality implies a background in knowledge (Jnana) needs to be mature. Not half-baked quasi-intelligible mumbo-jumbo.

 

Also there is already "science" in the form of daoist, Hindu and Buddhist frameworks that provide this. I guess what is being attempted is to fulfill the modern penchant for instant gratification...a bad idea in the dualistic world and a definitely a bad idea when dealing with nonduality. I'm going to venture and say all we'll get out of these "scientific methods" are some very confused and discombobulated dualistic beings...

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On 1/29/2017 at 5:36 AM, dwai said:

Science cannot sustain nonduality as it is not a "state" (even if it can help trigger it). For anyone to stabilize in nonduality implies a background in knowledge (Jnana) needs to be mature. Not half-baked quasi-intelligible mumbo-jumbo.

Also there is already "science" in the form of daoist, Hindu and Buddhist frameworks that provide this. I guess what is being attempted is to fulfill the modern penchant for instant gratification...a bad idea in the dualistic world and a definitely a bad idea when dealing with nonduality. I'm going to venture and say all we'll get out of these "scientific methods" are some very confused and discombobulated dualistic beings...

Take care not to disregard something that every sage has stated - that Awakening is at hand - it is just a very slight shift away from the illusion. I know this to be true. Awakening is in no way Enlightenment but it is the first gigantic step into the Enlightening stillness presence.

 

In our futures we will start with Awakening and then truely begin cultivation. Currently we start with cultivation and generally it becomes a set of beliefs and concepts and blocking patterns - it becomes an addition to the illusion. Hopefully we are able to manage past this and finally shift to Awakening at which point we are in an entirely wonderful space where nearly all if not all of our misconceptions about our cultivation is clarified.

 

Science is generally missing the element of spirit and religion is generally missing the science.

Buddhist and Yoga traditions have a great deal of science embedded in them. A repulsion from science, the "Monsanto" sterility model is understandable but science is far more than this extremity that we see so frequently.

 

The guy in the vid may come across as quit full of himself and talk a bit out his ass as in a sort of trite and tidy - "think nothing of it" - formula maker - but Awakening - full on Awakening - not an awakening experience or peek - is simply a matter of shifting from the illusion and while absolutely gigantic - it is JUST a very simple shift off the Extremely Addictive position based inertia's of the illusion and cause of all suffering.

 

When you Awaken you have shifted from the suffering that Buddha spoke of.

 

He has studied what many teachers in the West have already discovered. He got most of his material / data from interviewing these people. Awakening - full Awakening is happening frequently now by comparison to the past. Perhaps a less revered and fantastical view of Awakening is helpful in getting through our armor so that we can finally hear more clearly what every single sage has been teaching since they have been teaching - that it really is actually truly just a simple shift to Presence.

 

Now jumping to the notion that science has any real grasp into what is happening is about a lightyear or ten from reality but science is not a consciousness - it is into the processes of pattern recognition and as a group it is as stuck as religion in general. We might be justified in finding the disgust in the religion of science but actual science is striving for objective pattern recognition and ferreting things out without the baggage of sentiment.

 

Most of those that Awaken are for a time conflicted in the new awareness - though not in a pained way typically - while the shift comes with stillness and a general OKness and many other wonderful sustained elements - it comes with zero inertia. The illusion is all inertia and so for those fully trained in cultivation and spiritual study or not - this shift is particularly dramatic in this regard.

 

All the cultivation in the world does not begin to prepare or describe the simple Radical difference of no inertia - and this is what takes most acclimation to and it is the leading reason that quite a few resind the Awakening and resume illusion.

 

Addendum: (some cultivation does prepare one to more easily abide in No-inertia - Presence)

Edited by Spotless
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@ Dwai. If you watch the interview, his scientific work is only interested in "persistent non-symbolic consciousness". In relation to your question, the transition into non-duality would have had to been maintained for at least 1 year before he would acknowledge it as such. It's not a state, but a shift that is "persistent".

 

@ John Doe. Thanks, the link you posted is to Gary Weber, and was one of the research subjects in this study. According to Martin, Weber is in location 4 on the map. If you watch the last 30 minutes of the interview the locations and what they mean will make more sense.

 

Thanks, Spotless. Yes, he does talk about those who do transition into non-duality and because of lack of support, or guidance, dip back into duality. Also, what Martin has done here, and is the only thing science really can do, is to very meticulously recognize the patterns and map them out in a way that are cross-cultural, and trans-disciplinary.

 

This will shock many within the religious and spiritual communities who want to keep the practices, and indeed the stages or what Martin calls locations shrouded in mystery. I personally believe that the demystification of non-duality is a welcome step provided it is supported by integration practices that assist the seeker post-transition.

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If the shift is simple it should already have happened for the many who cultivate?

 

So why hasn't it happened yet?

 

Maybe it is the just addiction to having a position but I am not sure.

 

Gary Weber is of the opinion that it takes a lot of practice to change the brain and I don't have a good counter argument about that.

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From the research study, and of the many interviewers who have actually taken the course, the shift is not "simple". It's arduous and takes a tremendous amount of dedication, however, it's not as difficult as it's been espoused in many of the religious. traditions. However, as Spotless has pointed out, the shift is where it really begins, there is also the integration phase within that location and maybe even in this life, a shift to a new location. Gary Weber is in location 4, so from his perspective it does indeed take many years, since he's relatively advanced on the non-dual spectrum. Again, this is from the POV of the research, I am just a simple being on the path. That said, I am energized by the demystification of a process that has become even more complicated by the rise of the information age we live in. Anything that simplifies these matters, makes them more pragmatic for the benefit of all beings is something I can get behind. 

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There's really no "mystery" that is being used to shroud what is everyone's core being anyway.

 

What is missing is a readiness to understand what the ancients have already laid out as simple processes. With our modern penchant for complexity in the form of technology, we forget that the knowledge of the Self is in the realm of knowledge and requires no technology per se.

 

It is another matter that we have processes that take us to the Self discovery via many seemingly divergent paths.

 

I'm all for making this information available...but I suspect it won't be of any use until people become ready for the knowledge. We have a saying in India "the monkey doesn't know the taste of ginger..." or alternately, without going through the karmic rules, knowledge is going to be akin to a cumin seed in a camel's mouth (unappreciated)...

 

:)

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There's really no "mystery" that is being used to shroud what is everyone's core being anyway.

What is missing is a readiness to understand what the ancients have already laid out as simple processes. With our modern penchant for complexity in the form of technology, we forget that the knowledge of the Self is in the realm of knowledge and requires no technology per se.

:)

Knowledge of the self is not in the realm of knowledge.

And in many ways we have a modern penchant "for" simplicity in the sense of the least steps to get there - this is both a hindrance and yet perhaps it is a time come on some levels. Religiosity is absurdly overly complex and fraught with fears and "evils" and laid out by abnormal humans born of virgin's with no original sin (immaculate conception) fathered by God's.

 

Much that comes from the old is laid out in flowery heaven born streams and is filled with dogmas and the teachings of a particular teacher with a particular body type of a very specific demographic - they are often considerably more skewed than we imagine - for some people and not others.

 

----

 

On another note - level 4 was interestingly summated - his summation of as to why not wanting to converse in small talk was "intriguing" but far from "why" and a good example of just how far off a quick ride in that cockpit can then result in a rediculous "scientific" guess. No it is definitely not because it takes sooooo much energy to speak in symbolic language. If I was inclined to do so any longer I would have needed an air bag when he came up with that - it was laughable - and really clarified how shallow his understanding was - and how much it has just been a scientific study with not much understanding.

Edited by Spotless
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I watched the whole interview and found it fascinating.  Thank you!  Personally, I like the idea of dropping the cultural trappings of spiritual traditions and just doing what has been found to work.  If the Finders Course was available and within my budget, I`d consider taking it.  

 

There seems to be an underlying assumption that all the various spiritual traditions are heading towards basically the same end.  Does this hold up for Taoism?  For instance, does someone like Wang Li Ping, considered by many a modern day immortal, fit into the paradigm presented?  Or is Taoist alchemy leading to immortality a fundamentally different thing than enlightenment and awakening?

 

It`s possible my question doesn`t really make sense.  Or rather that it`s predicated on a mistaken understanding or assumptions.  I welcome feedback from knowledgable Bums.  Thanks.

 

LL

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I watched the whole interview and found it fascinating.  Thank you!  Personally, I like the idea of dropping the cultural trappings of spiritual traditions and just doing what has been found to work.  If the Finders Course was available and within my budget, I`d consider taking it.  

 

There seems to be an underlying assumption that all the various spiritual traditions are heading towards basically the same end.  Does this hold up for Taoism?  For instance, does someone like Wang Li Ping, considered by many a modern day immortal, fit into the paradigm presented?  Or is Taoist alchemy leading to immortality a fundamentally different thing than enlightenment and awakening?

 

It`s possible my question doesn`t really make sense.  Or rather that it`s predicated on a mistaken understanding or assumptions.  I welcome feedback from knowledgable Bums.  Thanks.

 

LL

Keep in mind this was basically about Awakening - and it was not really until near the end that it becomes clear the speaker has a fairly thin knowledge and experiencial basis from which he is speaking - far more than most but quite "off".

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Maybe it can be simplified....on Dharma Overground the movement called Actualism is followed by many and I've seen destilled flowcharts that one can follow to attain the goal of ending all emotions even positive ones.

 

Even though one can follow what is working there is the problem of discipline and also that you cannot just decide "now I am going to follow this path until enlightenment" because of grace and also that the wanting to get to a certain destination seems to dissolve in the end anyway.

 

So the Western approach to reduce everything that is working like we see in Western medicine to take the active ingredient in fruits or plants and then make a pill is missing the overall picture. In my humble opinion.

 

But hey if it works it is good.

 

There are accelerated paths with divine transmissions, blessings etc one can follow more now than ever since all the transmissions are being upgraded to wake up people from their sleep.

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Knowledge of the self is not in the realm of knowledge.

And in many ways we have a modern penchant "for" simplicity in the sense of the least steps to get there - this is both a hindrance and yet perhaps it is a time come on some levels. Religiosity is absurdly overly complex and fraught with fears and "evils" and laid out by abnormal humans born of virgin's with no original sin (immaculate conception) fathered by God's.

 

Much that comes from the old is laid out in flowery heaven born streams and is filled with dogmas and the teachings of a particular teacher with a particular body type of a very specific demographic - they are often considerably more skewed than we imagine - for some people and not others.

 

----

 

On another note - level 4 was interestingly summated - his summation of as to why not wanting to converse in small talk was "intriguing" but far from "why" and a good example of just how far off a quick ride in that cockpit can then result in a rediculous "scientific" guess. No it is definitely not because it takes sooooo much energy to speak in symbolic language. If I was inclined to do so any longer I would have needed an air bag when he came up with that - it was laughable - and really clarified how shallow his understanding was - and how much it has just been a scientific study with not much understanding.

  

Thank you, part of the "mystery" and the demystification of that "mystery" that I was referring to is to 3 domains.

You mentioned one of them.

 

1) Traditions steeped in their own mythology and it coming across as deeply incomprehensible to a sincere modern seeker on the path, who is happy to do the "work" but is confused by all the esoteric symbols, language, dogmas, cultural biases etc. This is not a criticism of the tradition, but simply a statement that all this overlaid symbology and mythology makes it very difficult for a sincere seeker to penetrate through to the essentials that will lead to the shift...

 

2) Non-duality (due to it's very nature) is incredibly fraught with confusion. How many hours do you believe people have spent talking about enlightenment, awakening, samadhi, unity consciousness, and on and on throughout history? The research is a step in trying to find --points of mutual contact at the level of cognitive and neuro-physiology-- to more accurately link together people who are having "roughly" a similar experience of the non-dual state. Is it perfect? Ha! Of course not, but it's certainly a lot simpler to understand than wading through a discussion on enlightenment on this board :) (Tongue in cheek)

 

3) The types of practices that actually "work" more efficiently based on the feedback and advice of those already in the non-dual state. I'll give you an example from Spotless. Spotless, I have heard you say that when in meditation, "stop the engineering, stop the doing" and simply "be". Forgive me, if I'm paraphrasing. This advice is actually quite useful, especially for a newbie on this board who perhaps has stalled out in his practice because he's trying to hard to make something happen, and simply needs to relax into his own being. Now, imagine that same type of advice compounded over thousands of individuals, and thousands of hours interviewing those individuals, and being meticulous about "hey what actually worked for you?" This has got be more useful than what we have now to helps newbs on the path...

 

I get the sense that Martin's understanding is primarily scientific, and can talk "nuts and bolts" from a cognitive and neuro-science perspective, but he simply does not have the depth of experience from the "inside". Especially, from the more advanced locations. I was waiting for him to talk about his own experience, and he did mention that he has transitioned, so I imagine he has had a taste, but to which degree it's hard to say. He certainly is not touting himself as a spiritual teacher by any stretch, and thank god for that. However, in a way that misses the point. His work is that of a researcher, and most intriguingly an independent researcher with his own money (a rare thing in academia where research is tied to big money interests). 

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Spotless,

 

I wonder if you`d be willing to go into a little more detail about dropping positions?  Guess I`m not exactly sure what this means (all beliefs generally?) and how to do it.  Let me take an example from my own life.  My partner is depressed and one of the ways this shows up in his life is that he likes to sleep all day.  I believe, very strongly, that he`d be better off getting out of bed in the morning and taking a walk in the sunshine.

 

Is my belief that he`d be better off talking a walk in the morning a position?  The kind of belief that I`d be better off dropping to make progress -- to use a controversial term -- spiritually?  If so, how do I go about dropping it?  (One way that comes to my mind is the Sedona method.)

 

Here are some other beliefs of mine.

 

We need to take better care not to pollute our water and air.

It`s not healthy to eat regularly at McDonalds.

Watching lots of news can be bad for a person`s mental health.

It`s good to exercise but running marathons can be depleting on the body.

 

You get the idea.  These are just a few beliefs off the top of my head.  Is this the kind of thing you mean by positions?  All these beliefs need to be dropped?  If so, how to start....?

 

Thanks,

LL 

Edited by liminal_luke
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Looks like this guy has got some interesting research and stories. The issue with awakening is that freedom can show up in any way, because it is free by definition it can't really be pinned down. In terms of psycho-physiological signals I'm not sure how that could be measured either because awakening doesn't necessarily mean increased memory, brain function or health, I personally know people who are awake whose memory is shot and in terms of regular academic brain function are worse off. There are many awakened people with severe illnesses and some who are morally suspect in their behaviour. So while I like what this guy is doing he is trying to measure the one thing which is impossible to quantify.

Edited by Jetsun
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On researchgate they have a lot of articles on meditation research, like this one

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41486162_Focused_attention_open_monitoring_and_automatic_self-transcending_Categories_to_organize_meditations_from_Vedic_Buddhist_and_Chinese_traditions

 

It seems TM has the most research to back it and the one where people have "pure consciousness" experiences.

 

There is also Open Focus

 

https://www.amazon.com/Open-Focus-Brain-Harnessing-Power-Attention-ebook/dp/B00AITRK24/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486833289&sr=8-1&keywords=open+focus+brain

 

which is based on loosening up narrow focus to achieve relaxation but I don't think it promises transcendence / awakening - but the effects seem to mimic those you get from practices with focus on pure awareness. Doing Open Focus with a practitioner brain activity is measured to improve the results.

 

I think in the future we will see consumer devices that can measure brain activity, skin response etc so one can get feedback on one's practice and maybe speed up the awakening process.

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From one of the videos by Jeffrey Martin one should go in the direction on more silence not arousal.

 

This is also my feeling.

 

His course is $2000 which I find expensive.

 

I think such knowledge should be open for everyone and it probably will one day.

 

Anyway there are some interesting articles here

 

http://nonsymbolic.org/publications/

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If he's charging $2000 for his course i doubt he really gets it yet.

I think it is expensive too but there are many examples with teachers charging lots of money.

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Knowledge of the self is not in the realm of knowledge.

And in many ways we have a modern penchant "for" simplicity in the sense of the least steps to get there - this is both a hindrance and yet perhaps it is a time come on some levels. Religiosity is absurdly overly complex and fraught with fears and "evils" and laid out by abnormal humans born of virgin's with no original sin (immaculate conception) fathered by God's.

 

Much that comes from the old is laid out in flowery heaven born streams and is filled with dogmas and the teachings of a particular teacher with a particular body type of a very specific demographic - they are often considerably more skewed than we imagine - for some people and not others.

 

----

 

On another note - level 4 was interestingly summated - his summation of as to why not wanting to converse in small talk was "intriguing" but far from "why" and a good example of just how far off a quick ride in that cockpit can then result in a rediculous "scientific" guess. No it is definitely not because it takes sooooo much energy to speak in symbolic language. If I was inclined to do so any longer I would have needed an air bag when he came up with that - it was laughable - and really clarified how shallow his understanding was - and how much it has just been a scientific study with not much understanding.

There are many forces that pose a challenge for a person's ability to even comprehend nondualism. We have to go through a metamorphosis, so to speak, before nondualism makes sense. I mean that, within the context of studying and practicing without a teacher who is able to literally capture the student's consciousness and "make them experience" the nondual.

 

In my case it took many years before I could move beyond the intellectual understanding of nonduality. Only now am I entering the threshold of the front gate...

 

Imho the old ways make sense when we fully accept them as bonafide ways. If we are constantly trying to mine these systems for what we consider useful, we end up deluding ourselves because we don't yet have the ability to understand what is truly useful or not.

 

Your point about real cultivation beginning after awakening rings true. But I think our karma makes us run in circles and jump through hoops before we are ready for the shift in awareness.

 

A skillful and/or powerful teacher does have the way to short circuit this lengthy process.

 

In light of various discussions about effort vs non-effort etc, it seems to me that we are ready when we are meant to become ready and not a moment earlier. I mean we have to have a karmic precondition to even be able to find such a teacher, and many among the handful of humanity who even do venture down this road, are destined to wander the dusty trails for a long time, burning their karma (and certainly creating more), until they ripen enough to get these insights.

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Quote from one of the mails from Jeffery Martin

 

Quote

It still amazes me that the folks who successfully completed the first class only took from about 5 weeks to 17 weeks to enter Ongoing and Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience (O.N.E./PNSE = enlightenment, nonduality, persistent mystical and unitive consciousness, extraordinary wellbeing, and so forth).

 

73% of people who completed an experiment reported Ongoing Non-Symbolic Experience

 

which is quite good.

 

They are apparently using a skin response measurement device

 

https://www.mindfield.de/en/Biofeedback/Products/Mindfield¬ģ-eSense-Skin-Response.html

 

Anyway, my take on this is such knowledge should be open and not paid for. Maybe it will be so in the future.

 

EDIT: Found some good notes with lots of info here

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byyr1byg_jh9a2RhRnBmT1JZUUU/view

 

 

 

 

Edited by johndoe2012

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More info here on the protocol

 

 

not sure why it pasted everything here :)

 

4 locations of enlightenment

 

https://insanebraintrain.blogspot.dk/2015/01/jeffrey-martin-locations-of.html

 

For the protocol I would add

 

* Open-Focus (https://www.amazon.com/Open-Focus-Brain-Harnessing-Power-Attention-ebook/dp/B00AITRK24/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507102993&sr=8-1&keywords=open+focus+brain). Listening to the exercises over and over and getting used to unhook the tendency to focus on objects.

 

* Listening to satsangs (Paul Hedderman is my current favorite)

 

* The OpenHeart two-part formula, http://www.en.openheart.fi/101

 

* Secret Smile practice as a way to get loaded with positivity

Edited by johndoe2012
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