Sudhamma

Replenishing Yuanqi

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Seems to be a common development of old age like so many other things if it becomes traceable in the age of 40+.

I asked not only for evidence that such a thing exists but also for scientific support for the claim that it begins in the age of 13-17.

And even if so, how does that prove an alleged absorption of yuanqi for years after birth?

 

Btw, I can also make up the claim that you stop receiving yuanqi from the stars because you stop growing physically with adult age. Pure BS, unconnected, incoherent pothead claims.

 

Yeah, and alleged climate change proves that earth receives the spiritual cosmic energy of the aquarian age that will lift up humankind into a new golden age,

if our brat has ADHD, it actually proves that it is an enlightened indigo child etc.! :lol:

Retarded!

 

 

You have a really bad attitude, I hope you can find some peace in your life and calm the hell down, I'm not here to convince you.

 

And I am not even a proponent on yuanqi being filled up untill puberty ages etc... I just saw this post mentioning that, and it seemed to logically connect with the calcification of the pineal gland, in that the age range, and range of effects are very similar. I'd say it sounds plausible but I am neither here nor there on the subject.

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Taoist Alchemy as taught in diverse schools seems to be made artificially complicated to dillute the clearness of the original teaching and to give power to the schools and teachers.

The raja yogi and yogis of other traditions get the vajra body without all this BS and with a simple and straightforward method.

I heard enough, I am out of here...

Seems a bit strange to claim Chinese tradition as a bs due to its so called difficult concept and at the same time to say that analogue teachings give vajra body easily. Or may be I misunderstood smth in your post or you have some valid secret method?

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The Chinese tradition is indeed filled with the attitude 'my school is better than yours'.

 

From what I understood the martial art schools battled each other all the time to become better.

 

Why it has affected Taoist Alchemy stuff on this site is a good question. Maybe people should grow up.

 

Teaching openly like Buddhist teachers do is a better strategy as it leads to more students and less probability for a declining tradition.

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Google scholar.

Calcification pineal gland.

 

You will get multiple hits.

 

Age related, race related.

 

+40 and White, sorry but you are doomed.

Asian, good for you.

Don't believe this, it is 100% false and hearsay.

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Google scholar means published, mainly peer-reviewed scientific research.

 

But if you have had the time to go through the publications, and you have the skill to see where they lack, good for you.

 

Maybe you can share your conclusions, with references, to the rest of us.

I mainly read some abstracts myself.

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This is a cut and paste from a posting on "Ming stages/Replenishing Yangqi/Ming Gong" by SeekerofHealing:

Posted 17 January 2017 - 02:07 AM

 

Quote:

 

I mean here to cultivating yuan qi generally.

 

The production of the primordial qi

The primordial qi mainly comes from kidney-qi of the parents during pregnancy. That is why TCM usually calls the primordial qi "the congenital qi". The power and quantity of the primordial qi are already fixed after birth. However, after birth the primordial qi still needs further nourishment and enrichment to enable it to be distributed to the whole body and to exert normal physiological effect. The primordial qi transformed from food nutrients provided by the spleen and stomach is called "acquired qi".

The distribution of the primordial qi
The primordial qi is stored in the kidney and distributed to all parts of the body through the triple energizer. The primordial qi transformed from food nutrients provided by the spleen and stomach must be stored in the kidney so that it can be distributed to the whole body. Though the primordial qi is distributed to all parts of the body, it originates from the kidney.

 

The functional characteristics of the primordial qi

The primordial qi shares the common functions of qi, such as propelling, warming, protecting, fixating and qi-transforming, etc. The functions of the primordial qi are different if its location is different. The characteristics of the primordial qi in the kidney include three aspects: to promote the growth and development of the body and maintain reproductive functions of the body; to promote qi transformation to regulate water metabolism and excretion of urine; to fixate sperm and inhaled fresh air to ensure the functions of the kidney to store essence and receive qi. The primordial qi distributed to all parts of the body warms and promotes all the viscera so as to bring their physiological functions into full play. For example, the spleen governs transportation and transformation; the lung governs respiration; the heart dominates blood; the liver controls dredging and dispersing; the stomach is responsible for reception ancl digestion, etc. These are all the concrete manifestations of the effect of the primordial qi on the viscera. Thus the primordial qi is the vital qi in the body and is the motivation of all life activities. The state of the primordial qi decides the state of life.

 

Unquote

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My own conclusions from my practice and from observing some of those real high level masters (so don't make me give you a text on it): I personally don't think all of a persons yuan qi comes from his parents just like I don't think yuan qi can only be replenished through internal alchemy.  I believe we get some initial qi from our parents which initiates the forming of the fetus and we also get from our parents how much overall quantity of this qi you can have as in how long your lifespan is gonna be. Once the initial spark happens and the fetus starts forming/the child starts growing, yuan qi is generated in the body naturally, through the same processes that internal alchemy hijacks in order to achieve its results. Since this type of qi is heavily used in tissue generation and general tissue formation, once puberty sets in and the body is fully formed this internal generation of yuan qi stops(or slows down dramatically I think is a lot more precise to the point where you consume more than your body generates and thus you start to age. This also means that if lets say through internal alchemy you gather more than you consume you wouldn't get younger, you would potentially stop or slow down ageing)) and some of the pathways that were used previously are shut down(like bone growth for example which BTW I know of a master who treats dwarfism with qi gong and is able to make the patient taller by 10-20cm). I also don't think internal alchemy or internal work can make one young again as I have seen some people claim around here, since the physical body is of the post heaven things and its his nature to decay(the only way you could do that is to sublimate it completely into an energy body). What internal alchemy can do and I am quite certain of this, is that it can prolong your life span, as in if with perfect health your body would live till 100 yo with internal alchemy you could extend that to say 135 or whatever but of course not indefinitely and you would still look old(check that Chinese man who supposedly lived for 257years)

Edited by TheDustAutumn
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Based on the above, can anybody tell when Life (Ming i.e Yuanjing/Yuanqi) comes into play in this video?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZk4hT7ncv0

 

How Life can be replenished after birth once the connection to its source (Dao) is cut is a question with a very simple answer. Alas, admitting simple things is something very difficult to do... :blush:

 

Zhong lu quan dao ji says:

 

With reference to the use of jing in human reproduction, there are many theories. Let's just say that jing and blood interact in the most subtle and mysterious ways when our father and mother copulate. The zheng qi (true qi) is stored within the palace of pure yin (uterus), and the shen is kept in the place where yin and yang have not differentiated. In three hundred days the fetus will be mature, and in five thousand days the qi will be complete.

 

A little later it goes on to describe zheng qi in more detail:

 

Lead is the zheng qi of our father and mother. Originally joined together, these substances never leave each other. When they take on form, they are stored within the kidneys. The two kidneys work together to drive the qi upward. This qi is the qi of the yuan yang. Within this qi is water, which is called the one true water. Water rises together with qi. When qi stops moving, the water will also stop moving. When the qi leaks out, the water will also leak out. ....

 

Based on this "interacting in subtle and mysterious ways", I'd say at 2:41 in the video, the two become one and enter the mysterious, and this is where and when the development of the yuan qi which fuels the process of the growth of the fetus for 300 days and child for 5000 days comes from.

 

As for replenishing life after birth, after the connection to dao has been cut off... restore connection to dao.

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There are more than tales that exist, reserved for people within Daoists circles. Obviously you're not in such circles and so you have narrow point of view because of your lack of opportunities, lack of De, dirt in heart, blocks, and so on. Just because you didn't have such a chance, does not mean that you can claim someone is lying.

 

But you're right, Xians are generally not walking around amongst society, they cultivated years to be able to finally leave it and have no reliance on it.

 

Last thing, goal is not about preserving body, it's _a stage_ in the process of transformation from human to Xian. Later, even for immortals..the body is transformed or "discarded" in final stages.

 

Yes, yes... there are always secret tales reserved for secret circles and special people who jump through enough hoops to be worthy of them. Those circles are always convinced that there are immortal humans out there walking the earth, and if you're privileged enough you'll get to see them some day.

 

You're already immortal. No special koolaid is required.

 

All the texts and secret teachings about attaining immortality are not taught by people who are hundreds of years old. Your only rebuttal is that immortals exist but they are so far removed from society that they have no use for us, thus we will never meet them. How convenient.

 

You're talking to someone who has seen and believes in many esoteric things that the mediocre world readily dismisses, but I do not believe immortals exist as a physical embodiment. At least not human ones. The fact that we live and then die is a gift.

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Yes, yes... there are always secret tales reserved for secret circles and special people who jump through enough hoops to be worthy of them. Those circles are always convinced that there are immortal humans out there walking the earth, and if you're privileged enough you'll get to see them some day.

 

You're already immortal. No special koolaid is required.

 

All the texts and secret teachings about attaining immortality are not taught by people who are hundreds of years old. Your only rebuttal is that immortals exist but they are so far removed from society that they have no use for us, thus we will never meet them. How convenient.

 

You're talking to someone who has seen and believes in many esoteric things that the mediocre world readily dismisses, but I do not believe immortals exist as a physical embodiment. At least not human ones. The fact that we live and then die is a gift.

Thanks for sharing your opinion :) though it's not the stance from Daoist point of view.. and seems to make Daoism approach devoid of self cultivation. Edited by LaoZiDao

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Thanks for sharing your opinion :) though it's not the stance from Daoist point of view.. and seems to make Daoism approach devoid of self cultivation.

 

 

Why must self-cultivation be tied to immortality? Are you looking for a reward?

 

Sure, therefore you age, degenerate (not just physically but in every aspect of our being) and finally die!

Seems to me that you have drunk already your own koolaid.

 

Or perhaps you are not old enough to have been confronted with reality by having witnessed that process in your grandparents and therefore live in a fantasy world!

 

The fundamental thing driving the pursuit of immortality - whether it's the search for the holy grail or for daoism's immortals - is fear of death. You mask it under the guise of wanting to retain your memories and experiences so that you don't have to start over.

 

Everything dies eventually, even the gods.

 

I did indeed watch my grandparents die, and some friends. I was also clinically dead and resuscitated a year ago. I've also experienced physical degeneration to the point of near death several times over. The only thing driving the search for immortality is an ego that is resisting the truth of its own redundancy. I wish it were possible for everyone to have an NDE before they committed themselves to such a perilous and illusory journey. When ego is softened or dissolved, all you experience is Wu Wei, which is all you are anyway. An ego striving for immortality is the most ironic thing ever.

 

Like I said, life extension is possible, maybe even for hundreds of years, but immortality is an illusion. I've heard all the stories about transformed bodies and what not... but that's all they are: stories. It's always someone who knows someone who knows someone who saw it, or it's an old story written in a book, or you have to be part of a secret society in order to eventually find out (also known as human power games and hierarchies).

 

Eventually you have to let it all go.

 

And if not... if maybe immortality is a thing and you're the 1 in 1 billion who gets to experience it, then your path will lead you there anyway because your eternal spirit has already done the work over however many lifetimes, against all odds, to achieve it. But part of you is already immortal. Why be so obsessed about transforming this physicality. There are many paths to Rome.

Edited by Orion
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You sound like a guy who doesn't fight because he is sure that he will lose anyway

so he doesn't even try but instead he tells himself that losing isn't so bad after all.

Who knows if your spirit is indeed already immortal, regarding how things work in the world we should rather assume that beings come into existence and then are completely wiped out again.

Of course it's about the survival of the ego or rather about the survival, the perfection and the divination of one's personality. It's also about gaining control over one's fate and destiny.

And no, immortals don't "have to die". They live "beyond the three worlds".

 

Winning and losing are an arbitrary hierarchy of values, so are the notions of perfection and imperfection. The truth is the truth, it has no "proper placement". If you believe it's possible to refine your personality to the point that you never die, or if you believe that you are separate from Divinity and therefore perfectionism is needed in order to attain something, then that is your path.

 

You speak in terms of a zero sum game, which is how most people throughout history described their search for immortality before they eventually died.

 

If you're using logic to assess your immortal nature, you may want to consult your other faculties. Saying you don't want to die is assuming "you" were ever born. The personality arises from a set of presumptive values. It is neither here nor there. What you really are is already permanent.

 

Good luck in your search.

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Good morning, today is the 2nd day of the Lunar New Year, the Year of the Fire Cockrel and I will like to wish everyone here a Happy Lunar New Year. This thread on 'Yuanqi' is fast approaching the next subject, Yuan Shen. And as @YiYinYang quoted in the previous posting "Qian changes into Li and Kun into Kan, it causes Shen to exit and Qi to move, then the breath cannot be preserved inside the embryo anymore." (when the child is born, and the kua changes?). Meanwhile, lets wait for a few more days to wrap up this thread. So far, the discussion on this topic is pretty interesting with some playing the devil's advocate, and sometimes with some flare-ups that might get the moderators involved, but they stayed their hands. We have learnt, and certainly I have, thank you so much guys!

Edited by Sudhamma
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The topic:

“.... I was given to understand that this yuanqi cannot be enhanced nor replenished..." 

 

The contributors:

LaoziDao : provided two links on ‘Wu-Wei P’ai viewpoints on daoist qigong and (daoist?) enlightenment. My comment was: ‘Though the school, Wu-Liu P'ai considers its teaching to be a mix of both Daoist and Buddhist teachings, after reading the two main pages of the links, my humble opinion is that there are… contradictions which need some careful after-thought’.

 

YiYinYiYang : provided a link to China’s CCTV4 documentaries, an interview with Mr Fan Zheng Lun on the TCM perspective on Yang Qi, with its relationship/interaction in the dual energies modality and the ‘three treasures’ of man, Jing, Qi, and Shen. On ‘shen’, I suppose that he meant yang shen, the life-giving force when he said that those having ‘shen’ will live longer, while those who lost it, will die. In the context to this Original Post, he did say that “Qi”  are of three kinds, one, primodial heaven’s qi (xian tien qi). Second, the qi from fresh air, and third, from fluids and grains. And, he did say that it is ‘difficult’ to replenish yuan qi. So does that mean impossible? It’s a good documentary for people like me starting out on daoism/tcm: (https://www.youtube....flvJngxBM&t=38s).

 

LaoZiDao maintained that one needs to be guided by a ‘true’ teacher to restore and replenish yuanqi:

“Yuanqi cannot be replenished by TCM / Qigong or any other post-heaven methods. ….Yuanqi can be replenished, but it cannot be understood by ordinary man, it's why classics stress the need for a True Teacher to guide student through the process, stage by stage.” However, Orion did not agree to this assertion and with a tongue-in-cheek, said “There are no immortal humans walking around, aside from some tales that they exist. So we can safely conclude that it's not possible to replenish yuanqi in a meaningful way.” That brought a quick rebuttal from LaoZiDao with “But you're right, Xians (immortals) are generally not walking around amongst society, they cultivated years to be able to finally leave it and have no reliance on it.” Seems that the discussion may be hijacked to Daoism-proper. From then on, contributors were debating with one asking the other for proofs and evidence about the existence of immortals. Getting back to the theme, IIya spoke about receiving yuanqi until the age of 17 years old. And, Wells in his usual direct manner asked for the source of the yuanqi. The exchange was furious but the moderators did not intervene. YiYinYiYang joined in the furore with a passage in Chinese (with English translation of course) bringing into the argument, the three treasures of Jing, Qi, Shen and a ‘pre-heaven’ baqua depicting the ages and the rising and waning of yang and yin energies. To answer Wells asking for proof, YiYinYiYang quoted the following passage which to me needs deciphering:

"This is not the method of passing through the viscera,
of inner contemplation and having a point of concentration;
of treading the Dipper and pacing the asterisms,
using the six jia as markers of time;
of sating yourself with the nine-and-one in the Way of Yin,
meddling and tampering with the original womb;
of ingesting breath till it chirps in your stomach,
exhaling the pure and inhaling the evil without.

 

是非歷臟法、內觀有所思、履行步斗宿、六甲以日辰、陰道厭九一、濁亂弄元胞、食氣鳴腸胃、吐正吸外邪。"

 

There were no comments by any readers on the above passage, and perhaps YiYinYiYang can explain in plain English what it meant.

 

Orshavskiy in her defense suggested that the teaching about the process of obtaining yuanqi until the age of 17 was a secret transmission. Idquest offered a compromise with “As for how yuanqi behaves over the lifetime - I'd say very few people really know if at all? Because reference to the old textbooks might as well be just a theory, what matters is actual experience and practice.” 

 

At this point, I brought in a passage from a posting by SeekerOfHealing from another thread:

“The power and quantity of the primordial qi are already fixed after birth. However, after birth the primordial qi still needs further nourishment and enrichment to enable it to be distributed to the whole body and to exert normal physiological effect. The primordial qi transformed from food nutrients provided by the spleen and stomach is called "acquired qi"…… The characteristics of the primordial qi in the kidney include three aspects: to promote the growth and development of the body and maintain reproductive functions of the body; to promote qi transformation to regulate water metabolism and excretion of urine; to fixate sperm and inhaled fresh air to ensure the functions of the kidney to store essence and receive qi. The primordial qi distributed to all parts of the body warms and promotes all the viscera so as to bring their physiological functions into full play”. 

 

Thus, I surmise from the above passage was that the expansion of yuanqi which initially provided by the parents, comes from the inertia of energy generated from cellular growth during the development of the body and organs. This seems agreeable to TheDustAutumn, “Once the initial spark happens and the fetus starts forming/the child starts growing, yuan qi is generated in the body naturally, through the same processes that internal alchemy hijacks in order to achieve its results. Since this type of qi is heavily used in tissue generation and general tissue formation, once puberty sets in and the body is fully formed this internal generation of yuan qi stops.”  There is a video from YiYinYiYang on the development of the foetus. Daeluin quoted from Zhong Lu Quan Dao ji “In three hundred days the fetus will be mature, and in five thousand days the (zheng) qi will be complete.” 5000 days, that is 16.7 years of age according to the lunar calendar. In the tail end of the thread was another lively exchange about immortality.

 

Thank you guys!

Edited by Sudhamma

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