dwai

The delusion of Lust

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A current thread by Gerard (titled Lust and the undeveloped mind) brought these verses from Adi Shankara's Bhaja Govindam to mind...

 

 

 


 

॥ भज गोविन्दं ॥

Introduction

Bhaja Govindam was written by Jagadguru Adi Shankaracharya.
A biography of Shankara and his other compositions of Vedic
literature can be found in the shankara.itx document. Bhaja
govindaM is one of the minor compositions of the spiritual giant,
Adi Shankaracharya. It is classified as a prakaraNa grantha, a
primer to the major works. Though sung as a bhajan, it contains
the essence of Vedanta and implores the man to think, Why am I
here in this life ? Why am I amassing wealth, family, but have
no peace ? What is the Truth ? What is the purpose of life ?
The person thus awakened gets set on a path to the inner road
back to the God principle.

The background of Bhaja GovindaM is worth examining. During his
stay in Kashi, Adi Shankaracharya noticed a very old man studying
the rules of Sanskrit by Panini. Shankara was touched with pity
at seeing the plight of the old man spending his years at a mere
intellectual accomplishment while he would be better off praying
and spending time to control his mind.

Shankara understood that the majority of the world was also
engaged in mere intellectual, sense pleasures and not in the
divine contemplation. Seeing this, he burst forth with the verses
of Bhaja govindaM. In 31 verses, he, like no other, explains our
fallacies, our wrong outlook for life, and dispels our ignorance
and delusions. Thus bhaja govindaM was originally known as moha
mudgAra, the remover of delusions.

Shankara explains, nay chides, us for spending our time in useless
trivia like amassing wealth, lusting after (wo)men and requests us
to discriminate and cultivate the knowledge to learn the difference
between the real and the unreal. To emphasise that, he concludes
that all knowledge other than the Self-Knowledge is useless,
Shankara makes the person realize how foolish he/she is in the
conduct and behaviour by these verses, and shows the purpose of
our worldly existence, which is to seek Govinda and attain Him.

Bhaja govindaM is divided into dvAdashamanjarikA stotram and
chaturdashamanjarika stotram. At the end of composing the first
stanza, it is said that Shankara burst forth with the next 12
stanzas of bhaja govindam. Thus stanzas 2-13 with 1st as refrain
are called dvAdashmanjarika stotram. Inspired by the extempore
recital by Shankara, each of his 14 disciples composed a verse and
the 14 verse compendium is called chaturdashamanjarika stotram.
(There are no evidences to prove the exact individual authorship
of these 14 verses, we have some traditional hearsay eviences as
attribution.) Shankara added the finishing touches by adding five
of his own stanzas at the last bringing the total to 31.
The combined 31 are also termed as mohamudgaraH by some. The last two
verses in this version is not found in all editions.

Bhaja govindaM has been set to musical tones and sung as prayer
songs by children. It is divided into dvAdashamanjarikA and
charpaTamanjarikA for this purpose. The former is a set of verses
(verses 2-13) while the rest of the verses form charpaTamanjarikA.
Anyone who listens to the music of Bhaja govindaM is attracted
to it. However, the significance of the text goes much deeper
and contains a well defined philosophy of attaining salvation.

Shankara's words seem to be quite piercing and seem to lack the
softness and tenderness often found in his other texts, thus
addressing directly. The reason is that this was an extempore
recital to an old man. His words can be compared to a knife of a
surgeon. The surgeon's knife cruelly removes the tumour with much
pain, but removing the tumour ultimately restores good health in
the patient. So are Shankara's words, which pierce and point out
our ignorance. It is a knife into the heart of worldliness, and
by removing this tumour of ignorance, we can attain everlasting
bliss with the grace of Govinda.

May the AchAryA guide us from ignorance to truth.

OM tat sat.


भज गोविन्दं

भज गोविन्दं भज गोविन्दं
गोविन्दं भज मूढमते ।
सम्प्राप्ते सन्निहिते काले
नहि नहि रक्षति डुकृङ्करणे ॥ १॥

Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool !
Rules of grammar will not save you at the time of your death.

मूढ जहीहि धनागमतृष्णां
कुरु सद्बुद्धिं मनसि वितृष्णाम् ।
यल्लभसे निजकर्मोपात्तं
वित्तं तेन विनोदय चित्तम् ॥ २॥

Oh fool ! Give up your thirst to amass wealth, devote your
mind to thoughts to the Real. Be content with what comes
through actions already performed in the past.

नारीस्तनभरनाभीदेशं
दृष्ट्वा मा गा मोहावेशम् ।
एतन्मांसवसादिविकारं
मनसि विचिन्तय वारं वारम् ॥ ३॥

Do not get drowned in delusion by going wild with passions and
lust by seeing a woman's navel and chest. These are nothing but
a modification of flesh. Fail not to remember this again and
again in your mind.

 

नलिनीदलगतजलमतितरलं

तद्वज्जीवितमतिशयचपलम् ।
विद्धि व्याध्यभिमानग्रस्तं
लोकं शोकहतं च समस्तम् ॥ ४॥

The life of a person is as uncertain as rain drops trembling on a
lotus leaf. Know that the whole world remains a prey to
disease, ego and grief.

यावद्वित्तोपार्जनसक्त-
स्तावन्निजपरिवारो रक्तः ।
पश्चाज्जीवति जर्जरदेहे
वार्तां कोऽपि न पृच्छति गेहे ॥ ५॥

So long as a man is fit and able to support his family, see
what affection all those around him show. But no one at home
cares to even have a word with him when his body totters due to
old age.

 

यावत्पवनो निवसति देहे

तावत्पृच्छति कुशलं गेहे ।
गतवति वायौ देहापाये
भार्या बिभ्यति तस्मिन्काये ॥ ६॥

When one is alive, his family members enquire kindly about his
welfare. But when the soul departs from the body, even his wife
runs away in fear of the corpse.

बालस्तावत्क्रीडासक्तः
तरुणस्तावत्तरुणीसक्तः ।
वृद्धस्तावच्चिन्तासक्तः
परमे ब्रह्मणि कोऽपि न सक्तः ॥ ७॥ var परे

The childhood is lost by attachment to playfulness. Youth is
lost by attachment to woman. Old age passes away by thinking over
many things. But there is hardly anyone who wants to be lost in
parabrahman.

 

 

Read the entire composition (and associated translation) 

 

http://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_vishhnu/bhajagovindam.html?lang=sa

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Does Lord Shiva put down humanity or other types of beings?  Nope, Lord Shiva set-up the whole thing beginning with Om and has no need to put down what he brought forth and dances through. 

 

Also human birth and further evolution from there is only possible through a mother who is a form and being-traceable back to para-Shakti connected to para-Shiva; so any male renunciate that forgets that or feels negative about women needs to get real imo.  (which does not mean disrespect in general to re-nunciates who sacrifice so much to serve...)

Edited by 3bob
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Does Lord Shiva put down humanity or other types of beings?  Nope, Lord Shiva set-up the whole thing beginning with Om and has no need to put down what he brought forth and dances through. 

 

Also human birth and further evolution from there is only possible through a mother who is a form and being-traceable back to para-Shakti connected to para-Shiva; so any male renunciate that forgets that or feels negative about women needs to get real imo.  (which does not mean disrespect in general to re-nunciates who sacrifice so much to serve...)

 

And what of the rebuke? Is it not also none other than part of that divine romp in full revelry? Can we discover truth apart from our experiences of delusion?

 

I don't see scorn for the manifested feminine here... only discernment. How can such passing beauty compare with the fulfillment found in true bhakti towards the unchanging Real?

Edited by neti neti
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I have not read any of the above posts. I thought I would sharp shoot right out quickly with my own ramblings on what comes to mind about delusion of Lust.

 

I would not refute that I have figured out my own trap of Lust. It is much easier to see the forest from the trees once you have arrived to the desert-then looked back at the forest.

 

ok I will admit there were times where I guess I was ruled by Lust. I think I prefer to say that under my own circumstances-and the circumstances vary....the word to describe was Lust, albeit though certain times seemed loving and genuine...love was just as possible there as well as lust.

 

It sounds so biblical though and so wrong. I was driven by sexual desire. I was excited to generally get the kids to bed and sleeping and go make love to my very sensual and sexy partner at the time.orgasm  was stress reliever and I personally enjoyed affection, closeness, and touching......

looking back I am sure some of it was not worth the hassle within the situation.

 

 

other hobbies at the moment..enjoy the backyard bird feeders. less complicated mostly.

fun to see the birds come and go. little habits now like how some sparrows for instance will hope foreward and then push leaves back flying in the air.

or maybe when they are at the feeder that they will have a send off scowl toward other birds at the feeder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok now I can go back and read......

 

not sure how one goes about dialing back the senses and then go live in ecstasy......which is no where I intend to go.

and why oh why do we want to go around with undulating orgasms up our legs?

why be concerned with our tight psaos and our tremoring......do I give a damn about it....

 

you see I don't really give a damn

Edited by sagebrush
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...and then who will "chide" Lords Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva for creation, maintaining and destruction that is short per the alluded definition of an "unchanging Real" ? Further yet who will "chide"  Para-Brahman for those three aspects coming into being?

Edited by 3bob
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Excerpts from Isa upanishad:  (which is not exactly on topic but I think has relevance)

 

"The rishi or the sage of this Upanishad is ‘Datyang aadarvanar’. His son, who is leading a normal worldly life (and not a monastic one) approaches the sage for advices on knowledge of the self. The sage, observing that his son has complete control over all the desires and that he is following all the duties and dharmas cast on him by the religious doctrines and also that he is a true aspirant of liberation and dedicated to the cause by complete surrender, teaches his son about the knowledge of the Self."

 

"Om ! That (world) is a complete whole. This (world) too is a complete whole. From the complete whole only, the (other) complete whole rose. Even after removing the complete whole from the (other) complete whole, still the complete whole remains unaltered and undisturbed.  {insert by me- thus where is illusion or delusion per-se in this whole?}

 

Those who advocate (and follow) the philosophy of not becoming one (with the Atma), they enter in to darkness; those who desire (and follow) the philosophy of becoming one (with the Atma) enter in to increased blinding darkness than the former.

 

What we get from becoming one is different; and what we get from not becoming one is different; - so have we heard from the wise men who have explained the truth elaborately.

 

That one who desires and practices not only the principle of not becoming one but also that of becoming one, he overcomes death by becoming one and attains immortality by following the principle of not becoming one.

 

Om Shanti"

Edited by 3bob
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Diversity exists only in the mind, appearances rising up in and upon the Absolute, which knows nothing of labels, aspects, ignorance or death.

 

There are no principles, there is no becoming, no immortality, there are no worlds. Non-existent concepts appearing as waves upon an ocean of awareness, with no One there to be aware.

 

All seers see the same once having plunged deep into the Self; the reality of their individual non-existence. This we can be sure of. All else is speculation fit only for the realm of words and debate.

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To continue in the spirit of the OP(devotion), I believe the "goal" as viewed by Bhaktas should be well understood.

 

Emphasis: "mine", here shared are some lovely excerpts from the Narada Bhakti Sutras.

 

 

   1. Now, therefore, the doctrine of devotion we shall expound.
   2. That (devotion) is indeed of the nature of supreme love in (directed towards) God.
   3. The supreme love for the Lord, called devotion divine, is of the nature of immortality also.

   4. Having gained this supreme devotion, the devotee attains perfection and immortality and becomes extremely satisfied.
   5. Having attained which (devotion) he cares for nothing, never grieves, never hates, never delights in anything and he finds no urge or enthusiasm for sense enjoyment.
   6. Having known which (devotion) one becomes intoxicated, silent, and enjoys in the Self.
   7. Because it is of the nature of renunciation there is no element of desire in that love divine.

   8. The renunciation, indeed, is in the total giving up of all secular and religious activities.
   9. In the Lord whole-hearted, single-minded devotion, and in all else that are contrary to it (devotion), complete indifference -this is the nature of renunciation. (nirodha).

   10. Renunciation of all other supports is whole-heartedness (in devotion).

....

 

16. “In the worship of the Lord with deep Love and firm attachment”, thus declares the son of Parasara, Sri Veda Vyasa.
   17. “A great attachment to listening to the stories of His glories etc. is bhakti,” according to Maharshi Garga.
   18. “The devotion for God, which is not opposed to attachment to the inner-Self is true devotion,” according to Sage Shandilya.
   19. According to Devarshi Narada “ total dedication of all actions at the altar of the Lord, and at all moments of forgetfulness of the Lord, excruciating pang” is supreme love-divine (bhakti).
   20. Let it be exactly as described above.

....

 

   25. The supreme devotion (bhakti) is indeed, as a technique even superior to the path of action (karma), the path of knowledge (gyana), and the path of disciplined contemplation (yoga).
   26. Because it is of the nature of the fruits of all yogas.
   27. Also because of God’s dislike for egoism and because of the love for meekness (devotion alone is superior).

 .....

 

   46. “Who crosses maya (illusion)? Who really crosses maya? (1) He who gives up all attachments to sense-objects: (2) He who serves the great devotees and (3) He who renounces all sense of possession in himself.
   47. …(4) he who keeps himself in a solitary place of quietude, (5) he who plucks off his bondage with the world by the roots, (6) (he who) goes beyond the influences of his “gunas”, (7) (he who) renounces all his anxieties for acquiring and maintaining.
   48. … (8) he who relinquishes the fruits of actions, (9) who renounces all ego-centric actions, and thus (10) becomes free from the play of the pairs of opposites.
   49. … (11) he who renounces even the Vedas and (12) gains a pure unbroken flow of devotion.
   50. …he crosses, indeed he crosses. He helps others also to cross.

   51. The nature of devotion is indescribable, indefinable.
   52. Like the taste enjoyed by the dumb.
   53. In some rare ones who are fit recipients this (such pure love) is found to manifest.
   54. (This pure love) without attributes, without the poison of desires, every moment increasing, unbroken, subtlest, of the nature of sheer immediate experience…
   55. Having reached the supreme love (that), the devotee sees (feels, comprehends) that alone, hears that alone, speaks of that alone, and thinks (contemplates upon) that alone.

Edited by neti neti
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Is post 7 quasi-Buddhist being that "non-existence" stuff is graphed on? 

Edited by 3bob

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Jiva is Siva - or That that knows Itself as the one in all and all in one...joyously without dualistic sorrow, speculation or denial of form or formlessness.

 

The Absolute without Its eternal Shakti and knowledge beyond regular knowing - is not so. .

  

Existence and non-existence which mankind thinks of - are moot before That which is never limited to or by birth or death, yet That knows of birth and death veils in time and space, being that That knows the coming of the very first, the leaving of very last, and of Itself as standing still and boundless.

 

That knows Om

 

Also note teaching below from the Chandogya upanishad: (which is getting away from the topic although one might note that desire is not a four letter word in this Upanishad.

 

"1. Harih, Om. There is this city of Brahman (the body), and in it the palace, the small lotus (of
the heart), and in it that small ether. Now what exists within that small ether, that is to be sought for, that is to be understood.

2. And if they should say to him: 'Now with regard to that city of Brahman, and the palace in it, i. e. the small lotus of the heart, and the small ether within the heart, what is there within it that deserves to be sought for, or that is to be understood?'

3. Then he should say: 'As large as this ether (all space) is, so large is that ether within the heart. Both heaven and earth are contained within it, both fire and air, both sun and moon, both lightning and stars; and whatever there is of him (the Self) here in the world, and whatever is not (i. e. whatever has been or will be), all that is contained within it.'

4. And if they should say to him: 'If everything that exists is contained in that city of Brahman, all beings and all desires (whatever can be imagined or desired), then what is left of it, when old age reaches it and scatters it, or when it falls to pieces?'

5. Then he should say: 'By the old age of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) does not age; by the death of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) is not killed. That (the Brahman)
is the true Brahma-city (not the body 1). In it all desires are contained. It is the Self, free from sin, free from old age, from death and grief, from hunger and thirst, which desires nothing but what it ought to desire, and imagines nothing but what it ought to imagine. Now as here on earth people follow as they are commanded, and depend on the object which they are attached to, be it a country or a piece of land,

6. 'And as here on earth, whatever has been acquired by exertion, perishes, so perishes whatever is acquired for the next world by sacrifices and other good actions performed on earth. Those who depart from hence without having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is no freedom in all the worlds. But those who depart from hence, after having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is freedom in all the worlds.

Edited by 3bob
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SAMARTH  RAMDAS

 

The world is as good as unreal to him who is absorbed in the meditation on the name of Rama [God]; and then with the vision of Rama, the whole of the phenomenal world will appear as a dream.

To apprehend the Absolute Reality is, no doubt impossible for the speech, the mind and the intellect. But what this really means is that It can be realised without their aid, and that Its bliss can be enjoyed without there being any prior want or desire.

If you wish to see God, you must cross the front gate in the form of this phenomenal world.

The chief characteristic of a saint is that he is always intent in looking at the vision of God, whatever may be his condition or activity while he is in society. He becomes as fearless as Reality and devoid of blemishes like anger, jealousy, sensuous desires and so on.

What is very essential in spiritual life is the combination of the realisation of the Ultimate Reality and the renunciation of all other things. Without any disgust for Godless things, there will only be a verbal knowledge about God, and the growth of God-realisation will be much hampered. And without God-realisation, renunciation will only be a pretence. One must therefore make himself free internally as well as externally.

----------------------------------------------------------

 

RAMAKRISHNA

The mind steeped in affection for woman and wealth is like the green betel-nut. So long as the nut is green, it remains adherent to its shell, but when it dries, shell and nut become separated; and on being shaken, the kernel moves within. So when affection for women and wealth dries up from within, the Soul is perceived as quite different from the body.

The knowledge of Oneness makes me see that everything is but a manifestation of God, the Absolute, on the plane of sense. Thus do I realise that all women are so many forms in which the divine Mother appears. Hence I revere all women alike – be it an unchaste woman, or an ideal wife who is an example to others of conjugal love and devotion.

Unless one becomes as simple as a child, one cannot reach divine illumination. Give up your vanity about the worldly knowledge you have acquired, and know it to be futile in the realm of higher Truth. Be as simple as a child, and then only you will reach the knowledge of the true.

Only two kinds of people can attain to Self-knowledge: those whose minds are not encumbered at all with learning, that is to say, not overcrowded with thoughts borrowed from others; and those who after studying all the scriptures and sciences, have come to realise that they know nothing.

Jnana never comes without the renunciation of lust and possession. With renunciation is destroyed all ignorance. Many things can be burnt by means of a lens held directly in the rays of the sun. But you cannot use it in the shadow of a room. Even so with the mind. You must take it out of the dark cell of this world and expose it to the full blaze of self-effulgent Divinity. Then alone will come true renunciation, and all ignorance will be destroyed.

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YOGA  VASISTHA

 

The mind abandons everything when the vision of the Supreme is gained. Hence, one should resolutely renounce everything till the Supreme vision is gained. Not till one renounces everything is Self-knowledge gained: when all points of view are abandoned, what remains is the Self.

.................

 

The universe is but a long dream. The ego-sense and also the fancy that there are others, are as real as dream-objects.

When the "I" concept perishes, the body-sense will necessarily perish like a great tree whose roots are sawn off.

Through Divine Grace, one can go beyond the influences of past actions.

Desires arising from latent tendencies connected with external objects constitute bondage. One who has got rid of his latent tendencies along with their root cause and attained equanimity, O Raghava, know him to be a person liberated from the objects of perception.

.......................

 

He who has no likes or dislikes towards pleasant and unpleasant objects, but goes about like one asleep, is said to be a liberated person.

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illusion or delusion are only mistaken perception and such related aspects or attachments,  otherwise  all is "real" with correct realization.

Edited by 3bob
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A valid distinction, and yet all perception deludes so long as identification with a perceiver persists. The same applies for the "realizer" striving for some-thing to realize.

 

KENOPANISHAD

Reality is known to one who thinks it is unknowable and not known to one who thinks he knows.

-----------------

 

 

TRIPURA  RAHASYA
 

True experience of the Self is the unawareness of even "I am". Can the world persist after such unawareness?

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Agreed if you mean Infinity is not knowable through a relative and mental "thinker" type of process,

 

for only Self realizes Self,

 

also the "worlds" springing from Self are definitely not negated per-se - see quote below with underlines

by me.

 

Chandogya upanishad:

"91When one obtains Bliss then he does his duties.

92. The Infinite is Bliss. There is no bliss in anything finite.

93. Where one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands nothing else that is the Infinite.

94. Where, however, one sees something else, hears something else, understands something else that is the finite.

95. That which is Infinite is Immortal. That which is finite is mortal.

96. The Infinite is indeed below, above, behind, before, to the right, and to the left. It is indeed all this.

97. He who sees thus, thinks thus, and understands thus, loves the Self, delights in the Self, enjoys the company of the Self. and rejoices in the Self; he becomes the Svarat (Self-king); he becomes independent in all the worlds.

98. But those who know otherwise, are ruled by others and live in perishable worlds; and they become dependent in all the worlds.

99. For one who sees thus, thinks thus and understands thus, Prana springs from the Self; hope springs from the Self; memory springs from the Self; so do Akasa, fire, water, etc. Everything springs from the Self for him.

100. He who sees thus, sees not death, nor disease nor pain; he who sees thus, sees everything, and obtains everything, everywhere."

Edited by 3bob

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Perhaps it is best read directly from an embodiment of the Supreme, rather than one such as myself who has merely captured glimpses of it.

 

 

Excerpts from "I Am That"

 

...The world and the mind are states of being. The supreme is not a state. It pervades, all states, but it is not a state of something else. It is entirely uncaused, independent, complete in itself, beyond time and space, mind and matter.

 

...It is all a matter of focus. Your mind is focused in the world, mine is focused in reality. It is like the moon in daylight -- when the sun shines, the moon is hardly visible.

 

...The only way of knowing it is to be it. The mind cannot reach it. To perceive it does not need the senses; to know it, does not need the mind.

 

...It is not perceivable, because it is what makes perception possible. It is beyond being and not being. It is neither the mirror nor the image in the mirror.

 

...It leaves no traces. There is nothing to recognise it by. It must be seen directly, by giving up all search for signs and approaches. When all names and forms have been given up, the real is with you. You need not seek it. Plurality and diversity are the play of the mind only. Reality is one.

 

...The state of craving for anything blocks all deeper experience. Nothing of value can happen to a mind which knows exactly what it wants. For nothing the mind can visualize and want is of much value.

 

...Want the best. The highest happiness, the greatest freedom. Desirelessness is the highest bliss.

 

~Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Edited by neti neti
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"The universe is all names and forms, based on qualities and their differences, while I am beyond. The world is there because I am, but I am not the world."

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"The universe is all names and forms, based on qualities and their differences, while I am beyond. The world is there because I am, but I am not the world."

 

Agreed in the meaning that the transcendent also has an unbreakable connection to and emanation per Shakti.   

 

(like the saying of sparks from fire)

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Agreed in the meaning that the transcendent also has an unbreakable connection to and emanation per Shakti.   

 

(like the saying of sparks from fire)

There are various "states" of turiya, and phases of samadhi. What you say is true in the "highest state" wherein one is literally Lord Siva realized. I've known spontaneous glimpses of this "state" ...  total free subjectivity(without subject or object) by way of sheer will. Indeed, as Siva, the universe appears as none other than manifestations of My Sakti power... but even then, they are not "me" because there is no "me" to self-identify with.

 

Most do not receive this grace from the (inner or outer) Guru, and so "lesser" paths are prescribed in the Siva Sutras, other than the direct and immediate which is "without support" (shambhavopaya).

 

 

I found Maharaj's commentary here to be noteworthy.

 

Excerpt from "I Am That" -- God is the All-doer, the Jnani a Non-doer

Questioner: Some Mahatmas (enlightened beings) maintain that the world is neither an accident nor a play of God, but the result and expression of a mighty plan of work aiming at awakening and developing consciousness throughout the universe. From lifelessness to life, from unconsciousness to consciousness, from dullness to bright intelligence, from misapprehension to clarity -- that is the direction in which the world moves ceaselessly and relentlessly. Of course, there are moments of rest and apparent darkness, when the universe seems to be dormant, but the rest comes to an end and the work on consciousness is resumed.

From our point of view the world is a dale of tears, a place to escape from, as soon as possible and by every possible means.

To enlightened beings the world is good and it serves a good purpose. They do not deny that the world is a mental structure and that ultimately all is one, but they see and say that the structure has meaning and serves a supremely desirable purpose.

What we call the will of God is not a capricious whim of a playful deity, but the expression of an absolute necessity to grow in love and wisdom and power, to actualize the infinite potentials of life and consciousness. Just as a gardener grows flowers from a tiny seed to glorious perfection, so does God in His own garden grow, among other beings, men to supermen, who know and love and work along with Him.

When God takes rest (pralaya), those whose growth was not completed, become unconscious for a time, while the perfect ones, who have gone beyond all forms and contents of consciousness, remain aware of the universal silence. When the time comes for the emergence of a new universe, the sleepers wake up and their work starts. The more advanced wake up first and prepare the ground for the less advanced -- who thus find forms and patterns of behaviour suitable for their further growth.

Thus runs the story. The difference with your teaching is this: you insist that the world is no good and should be shunned. They say that distaste for the world is a passing stage, necessary, yet temporary, and is soon replaced by an all-pervading love, and a steady will to work with God.

 

Nisargadatta: All you say is right for the outgoing (pravritti) path. For the path of return (nivritti) naughting oneself is necessary. My stand I take where nothing (paramakash) is; words do not reach there, nor thoughts. To the mind it is all darkness and silence. Then consciousness begins to stir and wakes up the mind (chidakash), which projects the world (mahadakash), built of memory and imagination. Once the world comes into being, all you say may be so. It is in the nature of the mind to imagine goals, to strive towards them, to seek out means and ways, to display vision, energy and courage. These are divine attributes and I do not deny them. But I take my stand where no difference exists, where things are not, nor the minds that create them. There I am at home. Whatever happens, does not affect me -- things act on things, that is all. Free from memory and expectation, I am fresh, innocent and wholehearted.

Edited by neti neti
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There are various "states" of turiya, and phases of samadhi. What you say is true in the "highest state" wherein one is literally Lord Siva realized. I've known spontaneous glimpses of this "state" ...  total free subjectivity(without subject or object) by way of sheer will. Indeed, as Siva, the universe appears as none other than manifestations of My Sakti power... but even then, they are not "me" because there is no "me" to self-identify with.

 

Most do not receive this grace from the (inner or outer) Guru, and so "lesser" paths are prescribed in the Siva Sutras, other than the direct and immediate which is "without support" (shambhavopaya).

 

 

 

Nisargadatta: All you say is right for the outgoing (pravritti) path. For the path of return (nivritti) naughting oneself is necessary. My stand I take where nothing (paramakash) is; words do not reach there, nor thoughts. To the mind it is all darkness and silence. Then consciousness begins to stir and wakes up the mind (chidakash), which projects the world (mahadakash), built of memory and imagination. Once the world comes into being, all you say may be so. It is in the nature of the mind to imagine goals, to strive towards them, to seek out means and ways, to display vision, energy and courage. These are divine attributes and I do not deny them. But I take my stand where no difference exists, where things are not, nor the minds that create them. There I am at home. Whatever happens, does not affect me -- things act on things, that is all. Free from memory and expectation, I am fresh, innocent and wholehearted.

 

This is a very subtle nuance that the intellect finds hard to deal with, imho. As with all other aspects of jnana, when the seeker is ripe, it will make sense. Otherwise it will seem either laughable or as though the words of a mad-person!

 

However, ultimately, this jnana is the logical conclusion, although it itself is beyond logic and the intellect. We are so used to rolling in the fields of concepts and percepts that we cannot imagine existence without these. For some it is eventually clear (or even spontaneously for yet others), however, there is a strong desire for separation.

 

For instance, once I had a deep and profound understanding of how "That" is nothing but pure love and pure joy. Yet, in and by itself, the love or joy didn't mean a thing. I was able to enjoy the love and joy, at least even as a partially separated being. 

 

I was listening to music that was so divine with love and joy, I knew there was no other way that things could be. 

 

While the love and joy made me weep, the tears were both of love and joy, as well as of the aversion to the fact, that ultimately, there will not be the littlest of the little "i" to feel the love and joy as an experience. I realized then, why many devotees are unable to separate themselves from their "ishta devata"...yet these are still musings of the little "i"...I hope I was able to express myself somewhat clearly...

 

Sugar cannot taste it's own sweetness...its nature is sweetness. Only a being other than sugar can taste it's sweetness. Can we then fault most people for not wanting to merge completely with the sugar?

Edited by dwai
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I realized then, why many devotees are unable to separate themselves from their "ishta devata"...

 

Would this not be where Grace comes into play?

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Would this not be where Grace comes into play?

Yes.

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This is a very subtle nuance that the intellect finds hard to deal with, imho. As with all other aspects of jnana, when the seeker is ripe, it will make sense. Otherwise it will seem either laughable or as though the words of a mad-person!

 

Very subtle... one must be it to know it, because the mind as commonly conceived is virtually extinct at that "level" of realization. The losing of one's mind is craziness indeed, by all standards and definitions. :P

 

 

However, ultimately, this jnana is the logical conclusion, although it itself is beyond logic and the intellect. We are so used to rolling in the fields of concepts and percepts that we cannot imagine existence without these. For some it is eventually clear (or even spontaneously for yet others), however, there is a strong desire for separation.

 

For instance, once I had a deep and profound understanding of how "That" is nothing but pure love and pure joy. Yet, in and by itself, the love or joy didn't mean a thing. I was able to enjoy the love and joy, at least even as a partially separated being. 

 

I was listening to music that was so divine with love and joy, I knew there was no other way that things could be. 

 

While the love and joy made me weep, the tears were both of love and joy, as well as of the aversion to the fact, that ultimately, there will not be the littlest of the little "i" to feel the love and joy as an experience. I realized then, why many devotees are unable to separate themselves from their "ishta devata"...yet these are still musings of the little "i"...I hope I was able to express myself somewhat clearly...

 

Yes. I like to think these divine paradoxes are meant to boggle the mind. What seems to contradict can guide us into that kind of surrender necessary to face the unknown. Hence, renunciation is the prescription for what ails us.

 

As for your expression of the ineffable, we can of course at best only point to It upon reflection... Thanks for sharing dwai!

 

 

Sugar cannot taste it's own sweetness...its nature is sweetness. Only a being other than sugar can taste it's sweetness. Can we then fault most people for not wanting to merge completely with the sugar?

 

Well said! It seems that parting with such sweet sorrow is delusional!... alas, the unfoldment of desire. I too am often guilty of the sweet-tooth... who doesn't love ice cream?  :)

 

Forgive me if we've taken your thread here too far off-course, but I suppose all is in divine order.

Edited by neti neti
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Atman is the eternal identity - it sees through the forms without fear from unbound formlessness...

 

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Edited by 3bob
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