The 8th step

[carbonbreath]

What do you guys think about the 8th step?

 

Is it necessary to trace back every single person one has wronged in one's lifetime and pay them back by either directly apologizing or replacing/refunding what one has wrongfully taken in full with interest?  What if one can not find all of these people, or the process of tracing them back may prove to be harmful to one's self?  Would such a person be damned for this lifetime because they did not pay back in full?

 

Can monetary debt be paid back by suffering or must every cent be physically accounted for- how does that work?

 

Is it possible to achieve personal retribution by instead paying forward? How would one know when they have fully paid everything back that they owed?  How much volunteering and donations would be necessary until they know that equilibrium has been restored to baseline?

 

I speak for someone dear to me who has gone through a period of "youthful folly", and now many years later having grown up cannot forgive themselves no matter how hard they try, feel like "bad person" and live with unbearable guilt to the point of destrutive behavior and suicidal thinking, simply for not having a "clear conscience". They cannot give themself permission to move on with their life and instead resort to severe self punishment.  I would like to help them in any way I can.

Edited March 4, 2016 by carbonbreath

[silent thunder]

nothing is ever lost, taken or gained.

 

realization and liberation are simultaneous.

[MooNiNite]

Realization elsewhere? in the future? After a series of good deeds?

 

[Brian]

Ever watch the TV show "My Name is Earl"?

 

Short answer is "no, karma is not a transactional equation."

[silent thunder]

Realization elsewhere? in the future? After a series of good deeds?

 

There is no elsewhere.  The future does not exist.

Judgement of the value of deeds is like a board game of mind and thought form.

 

Realization and liberation are simultaneous.

[Aetherous]

Some spiritual traditions teach that all debts of any kind must be paid in some way, in order to progress spiritually...and that a good deed cancels out a bad deed.

The truth is that nothing is ever really canceled out. Our bad deeds have their effect upon the world, regardless of how much good we do. Lets say Bob kills someone's first born son, and then proceeds to feel deep remorse and become the greatest most beneficial person who ever walked the face of the earth after that, in order to make up for it...performing so many good deeds that they should absolutely get him good enough karma to cancel out the murder he ignorantly committed.

That doesn't take away from how the parents feel, whose son was murdered. Perhaps they still hate Bob, and at the end of his very beneficial life, would seek vengeance for it against him. Or maybe they won't, and whatever is required for making amends for that just hangs over his head and follows him.

Good deeds have good results, bad deeds have bad results. Yes, the more good results you have, the better you are doing in general even if something bad comes to fruition. But the effects of our bad deeds aren't erased by the good.

That being said...what to do with this info? We all commit bad deeds at some point; no one is actually truly good and perfect. But look at what's beneficial, once you know what you have done and are trying to be good...is it helping you and others to feel shame and guilt, to be suicidal? Actually, aside from the awareness of not doing the wrong thing anymore, that's just causing more destruction. Negative feelings aren't healthy. It's okay to treat yourself kindly, despite what you did in the past...that's adding good onto a small amount of bad. Don't make the situation worse by punishing yourself...that doesn't erase the bad deeds, it only adds more on top of them. The "universe" will make amends for your bad deeds in some way; it's not up to us to torment ourselves...doing that ends up being a punishment for others, not only ourselves...if you commit suicide, then certain people will feel a huge loss. That's an incredibly negative thing to give to the world, even if you think no one cares about you. So...just treat yourself well, try to do the right thing in life, try to be aware of not doing the wrong things, remember that no one is perfect but that we're all deserving of better things and being better.

[Brian]

Another thought to ponder -- the concept of a transactional equation in which a negative act in the past is offset by a positive act in the present until equilibrium is met carries with it a couple of troubling implications. One is that it presents the possibility of bankrolling the effects of positive acts to offset future negative acts ("I'll work at the soup kitchen this weekend and then I can afford to rob someone next week") and it also suggests that the goal is to "get even" so that you can stop doing positive things.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Aetherous and Brian are making good points IMO.

 

If it's feasible for your friend to go make amends with someone they've wronged, of course that's a positive action. But if it isn't feasible, well, what's done is done. Instead of beating themselves up, it's more productive to move on and act virtuously in the present and future. No value comes from this kind of guilt. 

 

If you're a good person now, that is the case no matter what happened before. So be a good person.

 

Re: self-forgiveness, metta practice may also be helpful. Here's a good place to start.

[ChiForce]

Here is the issue.  Karma trace isn't just all about one person relation to others.  It can be to a group of people or to a class of situations.  I believe you have already committed the Wrong View by trying to undo your karma with one person.  In reality, you don't have karma with one person but with a particular group of individuals under certain situations. 

 

Yes, it is better to become a good person in general so that you can "redeem" yourself in another, similar situation.  Remember, karma knows no boundary of time and space.  If you have issues with your past life Karma, good luck trying to amend your wrong to a person which is no longer alive and living in another time and places.    I guess...not all karma can be ripen. 

[thelerner]

If you can't be

with the ones you hurt,

then help the ones you're with. 

 

or so the song goes. 

 

Sometimes helping others isn't so much about them, sometimes its not about making amends, rather its about changing the way you think and act.  Moving to be a better person. 

[ChiForce]

One thing I know is that this healing can be achieved in your dreams even if you and this person are miles apart physically.  That's something I have experienced in my dreams.  Again, is not all lost....