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Neidan on the rise in the west?

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I seem to percieve an increase of Neidan in the west recently, more courses are being held, and more people seem to be practicing it than before. Has anyone else noticed it?

 

This otherwise rather less well known practice seems to have gained more widespread recognition, which I think is rather good in itself.

 

But at the same time I think this attention might come with an increased risk of false teachers and unserious practitioners.

 

Even so is this not better than Neidan being obscure and mostly unknown?

 

It's hard enough to find someone that teaches proper Neidan as it is today, if we end up having lot's of unserious teachers will finding a serious teacher become even harder?

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I seem to percieve an increase of Neidan in the west recently, more courses are being held, and more people seem to be practicing it than before. Has anyone else noticed it?

 

This otherwise rather less well known practice seems to have gained more widespread recognition, which I think is rather good in itself.

 

But at the same time I think this attention might come with an increased risk of false teachers and unserious practitioners.

 

Even so is this not better than Neidan being obscure and mostly unknown?

 

It's hard enough to find someone that teaches proper Neidan as it is today, if we end up having lot's of unserious teachers will finding a serious teacher become even harder?

 

In all times to find a real teacher was hard. Even for Chinese. A lot of travelling, a lot of encounters with charlatans - it's all in biographies of Neidan masters of the past. 

 

Nowadays the situation changed a bit: Chinese teach foreigners, Internet helps to find texts and so on. But it is counterbalanced by the information "noise": today in China thousand of schools are ready to teach you the secrets of immortality for a couple of american dollars. In the West the same picture and it's becoming worse every year.

 

But the trend is positive, because more and more people in the West get access to the genuine tradition, and they can see the value and difference between the tradition and various multiple forgeries. Really, to differentiate truth from false is easy, but modern society zombies the crowd to accept everything without critical thought, so the words of the teachers and patriarchs jump back out of this wall of arrogance. That's fine, nothing new, those who are not brainwashed, they can find the truth. Again, as a counterbalance, the freedom in the modern world cannot be compared with China in the past.

 

So it's easier to find a real teacher, it's easier to find texts, it's easier to practice, but it's harder to be a person with willingness and ability to do all that ))

 

And I think for all reasonable people it's better that Neidan slowly comes out of the shadow.

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I seem to percieve an increase of Neidan in the west recently, more courses are being held, and more people seem to be practicing it than before. Has anyone else noticed it?

Of course. At the end of times the false teachings proliferate. Its in the scriptures.

 

This otherwise rather less well known practice seems to have gained more widespread recognition, which I think is rather good in itself. 

 

This practice promises rejuvenation and physical immortality. Do you believe these things are possible?

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This practice promises rejuvenation and physical immortality. Do you believe these things are possible?

 

It promises immortality, not immortality.

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I've noticed the trend as well. It's interesting to watch. In 2015 there were three new books on neidan published in English. 

 

I think it's fine.

 

In the last couple centuries in China neidan has been very popular. In the late Qing dynasty in Beijing alone hundreds of books were published on the subject. The language of neidan made its way into popular fiction as well. In the public's mind neidan became seen as the height of Taoist practice. Maybe that trend will happen here in the West as well. Or maybe more people are ready for neidan. 

 

Like opendao said, finding a good teacher has always been hard, even in China. And I don't think that will change here in the West either. But neidan is also not meant for everybody, especially the higher levels. When people aren't ready for it they won't find it. And that is okay. 

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Like opendao said, finding a good teacher has always been hard, even in China. And I don't think that will change here in the West either. But neidan is also not meant for everybody, especially the higher levels. When people aren't ready for it they won't find it. And that is okay. 

Nathan could you please clarify. Does neidan involve attaining rejuvenation and/ or physical immortality?

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Nathan could you please clarify. Does neidan involve attaining rejuvenation and/ or physical immortality?

 

Who knows?! 

 

If it does though that means in 3016, a 1000 years from now, some of us will still be hangin' around on the Tao Bums talking the same old stuff. :D  

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Who knows?! 

 

I dont understand. You teach internal alchemy with knowing the answer to a pretty basic question? What about your teachers? Do they know?

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I dont understand. You teach internal alchemy with[out] knowing the answer to a pretty basic question? What about your teachers? Do they know?

 

Maybe this type of questioning helps illuminate why teachers are hard to find.

 

Neidan is a process of reversal. After studying the process of manifestation, we come to see how the components of the whole are used to create myriad shapes and forms. When this process is reversed, the myriad forms may be combined and brought back together using specific techniques for the appropriate stages, to return the internal state one's spirit has responsibility over back to the primordial realms.

 

Due to this process of reversal, we have concepts like: those who know, don't speak; those who speak, don't know. This is significant, for many reasons. For the student who seeks a teacher, this means a true teacher, whom is practicing the principle of reversal on many levels, is going to be somewhat hidden.

 

This process of neidan is perhaps like returning one's self to the state of the primordial dao that is hidden within everything. Thus one is seeking the needle in the haystack oneself, and paradoxically it helps if one lessens the hold on seeking somewhat and opens and allows oneself to become the needle. At some stages the needle cannot be sought, one has to allow oneself to fall into place via non-doing.

 

And thus seekers of teachers are looking for these needles. The ones that are easier to find might still share some poignant information that helps to lead those with sincerity deeper on their search, and also might stall those who are simply seeking power, and so on.

 

With more people seeking, there are bound to many who simply seek for greater power. Even though what is sought lies within a mysterious balance, those who seek can still take things to extremes if they are unable to change their momentum. But with more seekers, perhaps more will find their way to deeper truth as well. Regardless of how many people find their way to the root, it is likely good that more people are seeking for something deeper within themselves, one way or the other. Even should the vast majority not reach the root, whatever layers they do reach could bring modern society into deeper communion with balance.

 

In many ways, Who knows? is a more poignant and truthful answer than a detailed explanation. It returns the questioner back to themselves. Yet often it takes a while before the questioner is willing to listen to the answers within. This makes it easier for them to miss the true and continue looking for what exists on the surface. People don't like things they can't hold on to, and true masters tend to be somewhat invisible and difficult to hold on to, just like the dao. They and it are everywhere, and touch you without you noticing.

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Maybe this type of questioning helps illuminate why teachers are hard to find.

What do you mean hard to find? There are like a bakers dozen of them on this forum alone, and zillions of them on the web. Now, may be you mean the recent photographs of their rapidly aging faces are hard to find... :D

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I seem to percieve an increase of Neidan in the west recently, 

 

For me, this is just trend analysis... hopefully based on some loose form of data.

 

What do you mean hard to find? There are like a bakers dozen of them on this forum alone, and zillions of them on the web. Now, may be you mean the recent photographs of their rapidly aging faces are hard to find... :D

 

To be fair in context, Daeluin talked about the "process of reversal" and seems to me to want to suggest the focused practice issues.

 

Is  your bakers dozen among that?

 

 

My point is... let's not be so quick to criticism another issue going on here.... but stay with the quotes we respond to :)

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To be fair in context, Daeluin talked about the "process of reversal" and seems to me to want to suggest the focused practice issues.

 

Is  your bakers dozen among that?

You know Daeliun's essays are pleasant to read but hard to follow. Usually i have to reread them 3-4 times just to get the general idea.

My point is... let's not be so quick to criticism another issue going on here.... but stay with the quotes we respond to :)

You are pretty cryptic too at times btw;)

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You know Daeliun's essays are pleasant to read but hard to follow. Usually i have to reread them 3-4 times just to get the general idea.

You are pretty cryptic too at times btw;)

 

Then re-read 3 or 4 times... 

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Then re-read 3 or 4 times... 

i promise;)

 

 

Narrater Long ago, there was a dealer who was in hurry going up to Kinokuni-hill in Akasaka Tokyo.

Dealer "This is not cool. I'll be late. But if I'm late this time, I'll get fired !" "Oh"

Narrater As you see, there is a person crying alone at the end of the hill. It seems to be a lady.

Lady "Boo-hoo..."

Dealer "Why are you crying that much ? What's wrong with you ? Come on, please stop crying and tell me what's wrong. I can help you"

Lady "Boo-hoo..."

Dealer "Please, lady. Please listen to me."

The lady turns around and shows her face

 

220px-Ryoi_Nopperabo.jpg

 

 

 

Dealer "Aaaaaah!!"

The dealer runs off and into the audience. The lady exits the stage.

Narrater The dealer ran through the hill, frantically. He kept running. After a while he found a light on the other side of hill. It was a noodle-stall, in which he found the light.

Dealer "Aaahh...Aaahh...Aaahh.."

Noodle vendor "Look here(?). What's wrong with you ?"

Customer "Have you been attacked by a robber or something ?"

Dealer "I..I saw...a lady..on the other side of here.... It was night. She was crying ....I spoke to her, being worried about her. Then....she showed her..."

Noodle vendor "...Okay ?...So she showed her...what ?"

Dealer "Yeah...you asked what she showed ? I can't say !"

Noodle vendor "Well.....is the thing she showed was...."

Noodle vendor and customer "...something like this ?"

 

tumblr_nwo69d93r21qgckmbo5_r1_500.gif

 

 

 

Dealer "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh"

 

 

Narrater Also, as for you ladies and gentlemen, please be careful when going up a hill. Otherwise... We'll show ourselves in front of you.

Edited by Taoist Texts

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No idea if interest is on the rise or if new books, websites, and teachers are popping up to satisfy a long-unsatisfied thirst in the West. Maybe both.

 

Regardless of what is prompting the new availability of purported teachers and teachings, at the end of the day, I think the best advice I got early in my attraction to Daoism remains the best possible advice I could give any enthusiast today: learn classical Chinese. Even though the Dao, obviously, is not limited by national boundaries or human language, it is damn hard to understand Daoism if one is divorced from its cultural context by not being able to live around Chinese lineage holders. The older generation's role is to explain the teachings; fill in blanks and resolve the confusion left by reading and talking to others; transmit methods; and lead by example. If you don't have access to such teachers, and you don't take the time to learn Chinese (you say you don't have time to learn a language, and yet you think you have time to seek Dao? Which do you think will take more time and effort? Will the smaller task not improve the chances of success at the greater?), how can you hope to tell if these English books and websites are genuine or downright fraudulent, or perhaps a mix of wheat and chaff? On what can you rely other than your "intuition" and luck?

 

To give an example of what I mean:

 

Mr. Brine, on the front page of your website, in big letters, we see, "Taoist Master Wang Liping, head of the Dragon Gate Tradition." Deeper in your page, we see the claim, "Wang Liping was chosen by three masters of the Dragon Gate Tradition to become the 18th heir and holder of the lineage."

 

Your biography says you are fluent in Chinese, so how do you not realize that there is no "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition"? There is no Dragon Gate "pope," most certainly not a layman-pope, and there are/were probably hundreds of monks and nuns in the 18th generation, some of whom are/were quite highly achieved. There are also plenty of Dragon Gate monks and nuns who have not even heard of Wang, and others who only have a vague impression of having heard the name of this fellow! I am speaking on the basis of conversations I've had with monks and nuns at many monasteries--people who've devoted their entire lives to Daoism, some living in such penury that they don't know when they'll get their next chance to take a shower and sleep literally on bunk beds in closets with a piece of cloth for a door! If he's the "head" of the Dragon Gate sect, then for these devotees to not even know who Wang is like a Jesuit priest never even having heard of the pope or a Gelug lama never having heard of the Dalai Lama... patently ridiculous!

 

I have seen this false claim in the writings of so many students of Wang Liping on the internet that I can't help but wonder if it is Wang himself who propagates the illusion. Then again, maybe it is a mistake made and passed on by those who don't read Chinese and haven't spent time around Daoists, like with the game telephone. Why the notion splashes across the front page of a website associated with an practitioner-academic who is responsible for translating Daoist Canon texts baffles me. 

 

This kind of problem is not just superficial. For example, if would-be internal alchemists buy a in a book in English that apparently was prepared by students of Wang's, Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu, they will be buying a book that suffers from omissions of important material in the translated text! If a book claiming to present practical instructions omits information, what becomes of the people who use it as an instruction manual?

 

Now, does Wang possess and pass on true transmission? Does he have great accomplishments? I have no idea and don't care to speculate. For all I know he is a profoundly achieved adept and is busy transmitting invaluable teachings to students around the globe. Be that as it may, there is still a very real and easily identifiable problem with misinformation that follows this man.

 

The questions I propose to people spending their money on Amazon:

 

If Wang's teachings suffer from this deeply troubling problem, what about the books and websites of others?

 

If Westerners never learn how to refer to the classics that have stood the test of centuries and milennia, how many will actually benefit from these new books and websites?

 

With the current crop of teachers and teaching materials, will neidan really "rise" in the West, or will it be just more chaos bearing the long-suffering name of Daoism?

 

Caveat cultivator. (Forgive my Latin, dear Jesuits, I know it sucks  :D )

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No idea if interest is on the rise or if new books, websites, and teachers are popping up to satisfy a long-unsatisfied thirst in the West. Maybe both.

 

Regardless of what is prompting the new availability of purported teachers and teachings, at the end of the day, I think the best advice I got early in my attraction to Daoism remains the best possible advice I could give any enthusiast today: learn classical Chinese. Even though the Dao, obviously, is not limited by national boundaries or human language, it is damn hard to understand Daoism if one is divorced from its cultural context by not being able to live around Chinese lineage holders. The older generation's role is to explain the teachings; fill in blanks and resolve the confusion left by reading and talking to others; transmit methods; and lead by example. If you don't have access to such teachers, and you don't take the time to learn Chinese (you say you don't have time to learn a language, and yet you think you have time to seek Dao? Which do you think will take more time and effort? Will the smaller task not improve the chances of success at the greater?), how can you hope to tell if these English books and websites are genuine or downright fraudulent, or perhaps a mix of wheat and chaff? On what can you rely other than your "intuition" and luck?

 

A few years ago, when I've started reading English forums and books about Daoism, I thought the same way: people are fooled by misinformation, they need to learn classics in the original language, and then they will be able to sort out truth on their own...

 

After that I've seen a lot of professors, researchers, life-long practitioners, lineage holders and gurus of all calibres, who read Classic Chinese, speak Mandarin, write long books about Dao, but who know absolutely nothing about real tradition, as it's still taught "from heart to heart" in China. And then I realized that such people are really those who make 99.9% of information about Daoism in the West today (and last 100 years as well). So I'm not so sure any more if knowledge of Classic language can change anything in general, but I agree that for serious seekers it's the must. But there are a lot of other things...

 

To give an example of what I mean:

 

Mr. Brine, on the front page of your website, in big letters, we see, "Taoist Master Wang Liping, head of the Dragon Gate Tradition." Deeper in your page, we see the claim, "Wang Liping was chosen by three masters of the Dragon Gate Tradition to become the 18th heir and holder of the lineage."

 

Your biography says you are fluent in Chinese, so how do you not realize that there is no "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition"? There is no Dragon Gate "pope," most certainly not a layman-pope, and there are/were probably hundreds of monks and nuns in the 18th generation, some of whom are/were quite highly achieved. There are also plenty of Dragon Gate monks and nuns who have not even heard of Wang, and others who only have a vague impression of having heard the name of this fellow! I am speaking on the basis of conversations I've had with monks and nuns at many monasteries--people who've devoted their entire lives to Daoism, some living in such penury that they don't know when they'll get their next chance to take a shower and sleep literally on bunk beds in closets with a piece of cloth for a door! If he's the "head" of the Dragon Gate sect, then for these devotees to not even know who Wang is like a Jesuit priest never even having heard of the pope or a Gelug lama never having heard of the Dalai Lama... patently ridiculous!

 

This fact is well known even in the West, but you see, nothing changes: people don't care about truth, they buy books a la Castaneda and they are happy, they don't want to check Wang's credentials at all, because it would destroy their "peace of mind". Their De is low, they can't understand classics even knowing the language, and find differences between texts and real results of fake teachings is also a big challenge for them.

 

It's not new in Chinese history though. However Daoism and its core, Neidan, are still taught in traditional schools as millenniums ago. So who have a destiny, those will find. Others, as many times before, are doomed to follow charlatans and spread false teachings, destroying not only own future, but the future of their children and their students, who are unfortunate to trust them.

 

Will it be different in 21 century? Daoists look at things positive, but understand that we live in the age of decline of all celestial teachings. It explains why Neidan looks more available and wide spread, though the real number of students (and teachers) is going down.

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Others, as many times before, are doomed to follow charlatans and spread false teachings, destroying not only own future, but the future of their children 

 

Whatever Wang's flaws, at least he has not gone insane with greed  to threaten the children of the competition.

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Whatever Wang's flaws, at least he has not gone insane with greed  to threaten the children of the competition.

 

About children our malice faceless devil don't know how generations are having misfortune because of the deeds of his ancestors. Well, no surprise. De is not his strong side.

 

"Competition"? Maybe in somebody's wet fantasies only.

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As much as I am not a big fan of Wang's, Walker's accusations are unfair:

 

 prompting the new availability of purported teachers and teachings, at the end of the day, I think the best advice I got early in my attraction to Daoism remains the best possible advice I could give any enthusiast today: learn classical Chinese. Even though the Dao, obviously, is not limited by national boundaries or human language,

 

But both below and above you just say that it is. The cultural context is defined by the national boundaries and language. And your neidan colleague says that classical chinese is of no help whatsoever. You guys might wanna compare notes.

 

it is damn hard to understand Daoism if one is divorced from its cultural context by not being able to live around Chinese lineage holders. The older generation's role is to explain the teachings; fill in blanks and resolve the confusion left by reading and talking to others; transmit methods; and lead by example. If you don't have access to such teachers, and you don't take the time to learn Chinese (you say you don't have time to learn a language, and yet you think you have time to seek Dao? Which do you think will take more time and effort? Will the smaller task not improve the chances of success at the greater?), how can you hope to tell if these English books and websites are genuine or downright fraudulent, or perhaps a mix of wheat and chaff? On what can you rely other than your "intuition" and luck?

 

No other instrument except intuition and common sense are  available for that. How do you know if those chinese linage holders of yours are not frauds? Lots of dupes lived around Rajneesh and his rolls-royces for a long time too, none the wiser, but speaking the same language.

 

 

To give an example of what I mean:

 

Mr. Brine, on the front page of your website, in big letters, we see, "Taoist Master Wang Liping, head of the Dragon Gate Tradition." Deeper in your page, we see the claim, "Wang Liping was chosen by three masters of the Dragon Gate Tradition to become the 18th heir and holder of the lineage."

 

Your biography says you are fluent in Chinese, so how do you not realize that there is no "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition"? There is no Dragon Gate "pope," most certainly not a layman-pope, and there are/were probably hundreds of monks and nuns in the 18th generation, some of whom are/were quite highly achieved.

 

And? If there is no pope then any one can say that he is the pope in terms of mystical knowledge. Its his word against your opinion. And frankly, Wang is a recognized chinese teacher, while you are not. His words trump yours.

 

Also the Dragon Gate is not an organization, and Wang never claimed to be its leader. Lineage holder means that he has knowledge, thats all.

 

 

 

There are also plenty of Dragon Gate monks and nuns who have not even heard of Wang, and others who only have a vague impression of having heard the name of this fellow! I am speaking on the basis of conversations I've had with monks and nuns at many monasteries--people who've devoted their entire lives to Daoism, some living in such penury that they don't know when they'll get their next chance to take a shower and sleep literally on bunk beds in closets with a piece of cloth for a door! If he's the "head" of the Dragon Gate sect, then for these devotees to not even know who Wang is like a Jesuit priest never even having heard of the pope or a Gelug lama never having heard of the Dalai Lama... patently ridiculous!

 

You deliberately fudge the issue. Wang never says that all DG monks report to him or obey him, as in your misplaced analogy monks and priests do towards their leader.

 

I have seen this false claim in the writings of so many students of Wang Liping on the internet that I can't help but wonder if it is Wang himself who propagates the illusion. Then again, maybe it is a mistake made and passed on by those who don't read Chinese and haven't spent time around Daoists, like with the game telephone. Why the notion splashes across the front page of a website associated with an practitioner-academic who is responsible for translating Daoist Canon texts baffles me. 

 

I think you and opendao are attacking Wang because you both sell seminars and he is your competition. Is it a fair assumption on my part?

 

This kind of problem is not just superficial. For example, if would-be internal alchemists buy a in a book in English that apparently was prepared by students of Wang's, Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu, they will be buying a book that suffers from omissions of important material in the translated text! If a book claiming to present practical instructions omits information, what becomes of the people who use it as an instruction manual?

 

Nothing bad will befall them;) The book in question is a hodge-podge collection of various, tersely described methods. Leaving out some, for whatever reason is not gonna affect students. Besides you guys always say that books are useless anyway. That is germane to you language study advice too. If books are useless what use is the language? ;)

 

 

Now, does Wang possess and pass on true transmission? Does he have great accomplishments? I have no idea and don't care to speculate. For all I know he is a profoundly achieved adept and is busy transmitting invaluable teachings to students around the globe. Be that as it may, there is still a very real and easily identifiable problem with misinformation that follows this man.

 

How about all the other neidan peddlers out there? Why pick on Wang? Because he is the most successful of them?

 

 

The questions I propose to people spending their money on Amazon:

 

If Wang's teachings suffer from this deeply troubling problem, what about the books and websites of others?

 

Oh theirs are plain horrible so again, why pick on on Wang? Judged against  the whole neidan market  he is the golden standard.

 

If Westerners never learn how to refer to the classics that have stood the test of centuries and milennia, how many will actually benefit from these new books and websites?

 

no, no, no;) The classics are useless without a teacher, remember your motto? ;)

 

 Caveat cultivator. (Forgive my Latin, dear Jesuits, I know it sucks  :D )

 

Your logic has some room for improvement too.

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I see, Taoist Text, thank you. I hope I can clarify my post in case other readers share your confusion with what I meant, and to prevent your confusion from spreading to other people. 

 

But both below and above you just say that it is. The cultural context is defined by the national boundaries and language. And your neidan colleague says that classical chinese is of no help whatsoever. You guys might wanna compare notes.

 

That is not what Opendao said.

 

 

No other instrument except intuition and common sense are  available for that. How do you know if those chinese linage holders of yours are not frauds? Lots of dupes lived around Rajneesh and his rolls-royces for a long time too, none the wiser, but speaking the same language.

 

You are right. As was Opendao, when he said that language ability is a must, but that it is also not enough.

 

If it is not enough, then what else is needed? That is a question that is truly worthy of contemplation!

 

 

And? If there is no pope then any one can say that he is the pope in terms of mystical knowledge. Its his word against your opinion. And frankly, Wang is a recognized chinese teacher, while you are not. His words trump yours.

 

You're just being silly now.

 

Also the Dragon Gate is not an organization, and Wang never claimed to be its leader. Lineage holder means that he has knowledge, thats all.

 

As I said very clearly in my last post, I do not know if Wang makes/made that claim himself. What I do know is that many Westerners who say they've studied with him make that claim. Look at Brine's page. It says on the text that splashes on the front page, "head of the Dragon Gate tradition."

 

The terms lineage holder and "head" mean two very different things.

 

 

You deliberately fudge the issue. Wang never says that all DG monks report to him or obey him, as in your misplaced analogy monks and priests do towards their leader.

 

See above, re: "head."

 

Also, it says on Brine's page, that Wang is "the 18th heir and holder of the lineage." The problem is with the word "the," which, especially taken alongside the word "head," implies exclusivity as well as leadership. Within the Dragon Gate sect of Complete Reality Daoism, Wang has neither.

 

It would be correct to say that Wang is an heir and lineage holder in the 18th generation. To say that he is the heir and lineage holder is a mistake.

 

Is the mistake Wang's or is it Brine, et al's? As I wrote above, I truly do not know.

 

I think you and opendao are attacking Wang because you both sell seminars and he is your competition. Is it a fair assumption on my part?

 

False. I am not a teacher, I do not sell anything. I am not qualified to be a Daoist teacher, and perhaps I never will be. Therefore, in terms of Daoism, I am not planning on becoming a teacher. Furthermore, Daoist teachings were given to me for free, and out of respect for my teachers, in the unlikely event that they one day tell me to teach, then I will continue their tradition.

 

For the record, I have no affiliation with Opendao, nor, to my knowledge, do we even know any of the same people, online or off. Aside from a couple of brief PMs three or four years ago, all of my communication with him is in public, right here. If we seem to agree on many things here, it is probably because we have been exposed to similar veins of orthodox Daoist teaching, that is all.

 

 

Nothing bad will befall them;) The book in question is a hodge-podge collection of various, tersely described methods. Leaving out some, for whatever reason is not gonna affect students.

 

I did not single out this book for leaving out methods. Rather, for leaving out very important bits and pieces of instructions within the methods, to the extent that the instructions are simply no longer the same.

 

If people other than the insatiably argumentative Taoist Texts have a sincere interest in seeing what I mean, perhaps if I have enough time at a later date I can present some examples in a separate post.

 

 

Besides you guys always say that books are useless anyway. That is germane to you language study advice too. If books are useless what use is the language? ;)

 

You are attempting to back me into a corner that does not exist. In these little games you play you are ultimately the loser. If I may: such exertions are not a worthy use of one's limited time alive. I cannot control you, though, so I suppose we'll just have to put up with your mind games until you grow out of them. For your sake, I hope that time comes sooner than later.

 

Yes, yes, now think up something smug and cute to say in response with a wink, very clever, Taoist Texts, you are oh so very clever.

 

How about all the other neidan peddlers out there? Why pick on Wang? Because he is the most successful of them?

 

It is such a terrible waste of life to argue for argument's sake.

 

Oh theirs are plain horrible so again, why pick on on Wang? Judged against  the whole neidan market  he is the golden standard.

 

See above.

 

no, no, no;) The classics are useless without a teacher, remember your motto? ;)

 

That's generally true. Be that as it may, one can't eschew the classics. Textual study and study with teachers are mutually complementary.

 

Your logic has some room for improvement too.

 

I accept your advice and hope that with time I will see these issues with greater clarity.

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If people other than the insatiably argumentative Taoist Texts  

 

 

You have posted excessively voluminous misinformation and disinformation (alongside some genuine information as well as things I lack the ability to comment on) about Daoism for several years.
 
By becoming the pervasive presence on this forum, as well as by taking the tone of expert, de facto you put yourself in the role of teacher.
 
My aim is to apply scrutiny to your teachings and, yes, to discredit them where they are too aggregiously false.
 
In other words, I only post to kill the message.
 
 
 

 

 
 
Lol, pot, kettle, black.
Edited by Taoist Texts

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The importance of the classics is similar to the importance of learning from a master. A normal teacher can see that you are obviously favoring your left leg and help you to use it better. A master might ignore the leg entirely, offering guidance at what might appear to be an entirely unrelated angle. The master is likely to see deeper, and for their guidance to take one very far, should it be practiced with sincerity of intent.

 

It is the same with books. One learns the efficacy of a tool by using it, not by talking about it.

 

From what I can tell, the classics speak from many perspectives at once. It is doubtful a translation can carry the full transmission. Even so, the more time I spend using the tools, the more layers connect.

 

The classics are nice in that they stick to the root. Perhaps they are like holograms - even cut it in half and the whole is yet encoded within each half. Modern sources don't tend to have much strength with this ability.

 

While I agree that various instruction manuals could be incomplete and misleading, I think this is really just part of the principle. The false is continuously spread over the surface. Had WL denied his students from making an english translation perhaps someone would have done so unofficially and it would have made an even more imbalanced impact. WL's loud wind is going to be heard, and he is likely only part of that phenomena. Even with obfuscations, I think there is enough truth hidden within to lead others more toward the dao.

 

The key is to recognize when there is an obfuscation and work on discovering the truth it is hiding. Oddly enough, attacking what is false tends to create even more of a mess, further obscuring the true. Pointing at the true from within the false is easy enough, but there aren't always students willing to look.

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