Split from Awakening versus enlightenment

[leth]

All reasoning must begin with something that was not reasoned and the no reasoning can prove the first principles of reasoning. I'm not going to discuss ethics as it would take too long. Emotion is an effect. We are born with both cognitive and emotive faculty. Then we have to integrate them in the correct order. when we are young there is little reasoning and a much emotion. At first we are wired in series. Our minds can then absorb vast amounts of experience. We aren't reasoning much as yet and our emotions are given free reign. As we reach puberty our brains begin a rewiring process into parallel. Now the confusion begins as experience, reason and emotion begin to radically effect each other. A man can be at the mercy of pure emotion if he is not sufficiently mature. This should come as no surprise. It is the age of lust and ego building. We fight to impress and to win sexual mates. This is why it is said "there are no rules in love and war". Reason is secondary to emotion. At around the age of 55 (give or take). Reason has begun its golden age in those who have nurtured it. Emotion becomes a guide, but no longer a driving force. It is the beginning of wisdom, the lessening of the egoic nature and the blossoming of a deeper rational loving. The earlier reasoning is developed the better. However, our modern education system, the political system and the media are predicated on the emotional responses because emotional is controllable. If the educator/politician/media can manipulate the child into handing decision making over to an authority-the state, then it can use Pavlovian response techniques of pleasure/pain response and reward to control the actions of the subject. So, the question is not so simple as you had put it. If you are immature then you will experience emotions without applying rationality. The less reasoning-even as an adult-the more your actions will be controlled by emotion and then those actions will be rationalised. Love will be an expansive emotion with little connection to reason. You should know what you are feeling and what is making you feel that way. These are the subtle areas of witnessing beyond noticing thoughts one should notice moods. Develop reason sufficiently and you are no longer a prisoner of emotion, instead it works for you to provide joy and pleasure in the world instead of suffering and confusion.

 

This does seem to argue against your previous statement that all qualities of a man[sic] are products of reason. Are you retracting that statement?

[Karl]

This does seem to argue against your previous statement that all qualities of a man[sic] are products of reason. Are you retracting that statement?

No. Just expanding.

 

 

https://howthebrainlearns.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/6-major-parts-of-the-brain-and-how-they-work/

 

 

the above might help. I can't comment on the accuracy of the work, but the general idea is there.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Karl

[steve]

Where do you derive morals and values if not through reason ? All the qualities of a man are the product of reason. Love, connection, compassion, openness are all the result of moral values derived by reasoning.

 

As you say, you have a path you wish to follow. Best wishes.

 

I owe you an apology, Karl.

I posted the stoned Spock photo because I thought you must be pulling my leg.

Perhaps not...

 

In answer to your question, morals and values arise spontaneously as a consequence of our ability to connect to others and our environment in a genuine way. When we feel that connection, that warmth, that spark of sharing something precious with another, life and awareness for example, we lose the ability to take advantage of another, we can no longer stand seeing other sentient beings suffer. That is the foundation for lasting and incontrovertible morality and ethics.

 

Any morals or ethics derived through reason and thought are on shaky ground because the very mind that "created" them is equally capable of tearing them down. We see that every day in our lives as we see the heartlessness, the opportunism, the selfishness. Reason is extremely powerful, it has created human civilization (or at least takes the credit) but, at the same time, it is responsible for just as much destruction. As it rests on a foundation of relative causes and conditions, it is ever changing and unstable. Reference the numerous philosophies we see throughout human history. The moral and ethical truths that reason is reaching for and finds always just out of its grasp, is not of or created by reason, they are much more stable but also subtle and elusive and easily obscured and ignored.

[Karl]

I owe you an apology, Karl.

I posted the stoned Spock photo because I thought you must be pulling my leg.

Perhaps not...

 

In answer to your question, morals and values arise spontaneously as a consequence of our ability to connect to others and our environment in a genuine way. When we feel that connection, that warmth, that spark of sharing something precious with another, life and awareness for example, we lose the ability to take advantage of another, we can no longer stand seeing other sentient beings suffer. That is the foundation for lasting and incontrovertible morality and ethics.

 

Any morals or ethics derived through reason and thought are on shaky ground because the very mind that "created" them is equally capable of tearing them down. We see that every day in our lives as we see the heartlessness, the opportunism, the selfishness. Reason is extremely powerful, it has created human civilization (or at least takes the credit) but, at the same time, it is responsible for just as much destruction. As it rests on a foundation of relative causes and conditions, it is ever changing and unstable. Reference the numerous philosophies we see throughout human history. The moral and ethical truths that reason is reaching for and finds always just out of its grasp, is not of or created by reason, they are much more stable but also subtle and elusive and easily obscured and ignored.

 

Poor reasoning might cause destruction, or emotion with the control of reason, but not reason itself.

Even Kant understood reason was the only cause of morality.

 

We bare the burden of free will and reason is the only filter. Therefore be careful to develop correct reasoning.

 

I don't think you have yet reached the stage where your emotions and thoughts are clearly identified. If you had, then you would instantly see the connections that bind them together.

 

It's seems to me you have a misconception about reason. Perhaps it's too much exposure to Star Trek and the character of Spock ? I'm not joking here, because you did post it. Is this your definition ? A cold, logic bound, unfeeling alien struggling to keep things under control and acting more like a computer ? It really isn't at all that way :-) it's perfect unity. The Yin and Yang in balance. Compassion becomes practical compassion that can do some firm corrective action, love becomes a deep, abiding flow that stems from reason and not lust or ownership. Openness is no longer naivety but true open mindedness seated in wisdom.

 

If someone was driving you down a dangerous, busy road. Would you prefer emotion or reason at the wheel. When reason and emotion work together in unity you can have fun and be responsible. That's the blend to aim for. When the going gets tough you really don't want a 'flapper' or the 'positive minded' who will simply accept things without acting.

 

 

 

 

[steve]

Reason has its place in our lives certainly, as does emotion. 

And there is much more beyond for those who care to look with sincerity.

Peace

[Karl]

Reason has its place in our lives certainly, as does emotion. 

And there is much more beyond for those who care to look with sincerity.

Peace

 

There is nothing beyond reality, but first you must know how to know reality. Knowing how to know is the basis for all occulted knowledge. One who does not know how to know is like an illiterate in a library. He may see the books, he may be as close to touching, or to let his eyes roam over the symbols, but he is unable to extract anything.

[allinone]

1.What is joy?

2.Why it comes?

3.What initiates joy, or what is the catalyst for joy?

4.Why it disappears, what makes it to disappear?

[Karl]

1.What is joy?

2.Why it comes?

3.What initiates joy, or what is the catalyst for joy?

4.Why it disappears, what makes it to disappear?

 

1. An emotion which we label pleasurable

2. Because we are in tune with the universe

3. An experience, either direct perception or a recalled memory, sometimes both.

4. Like music, there must be dynamics. If there was always joy it would be like a monotone frequency.

[dwai]

Poor reasoning might cause destruction, or emotion with the control of reason, but not reason itself. Even Kant understood reason was the only cause of morality. We bare the burden of free will and reason is the only filter. Therefore be careful to develop correct reasoning. I don't think you have yet reached the stage where your emotions and thoughts are clearly identified. If you had, then you would instantly see the connections that bind them together. It's seems to me you have a misconception about reason. Perhaps it's too much exposure to Star Trek and the character of Spock ? I'm not joking here, because you did post it. Is this your definition ? A cold, logic bound, unfeeling alien struggling to keep things under control and acting more like a computer ? It really isn't at all that way :-) it's perfect unity. The Yin and Yang in balance. Compassion becomes practical compassion that can do some firm corrective action, love becomes a deep, abiding flow that stems from reason and not lust or ownership. Openness is no longer naivety but true open mindedness seated in wisdom. If someone was driving you down a dangerous, busy road. Would you prefer emotion or reason at the wheel. When reason and emotion work together in unity you can have fun and be responsible. That's the blend to aim for. When the going gets tough you really don't want a 'flapper' or the 'positive minded' who will simply accept things without acting.

It is evident that you have thought a lot about "Reasoning". Have you thought about what gives us the ability to reason? The ability to see, taste, hear, smell, feel?

That's where the essence of awakening and enlightenment lies imho.

[allinone]

1. An emotion which we label pleasurable 2. Because we are in tune with the universe 3. An experience, either direct perception or a recalled memory, sometimes both. 4. Like music, there must be dynamics. If there was always joy it would be like a monotone frequency.

 

 An opportunity to give unpleasant energy to someone(or thing) else to carry or deal with. Results in joy.

 

If we listen to music, then we notice significant mood rise and if we turn the volume up we get even higher joy also noticing that its harder and harder to concentrate on some other activity, it comes more difficult to understand what i read.

Conclusion:

Joy is opposite to mental energy. Mental energy is result of bearing unpleasant energy.

[Karl]

It is evident that you have thought a lot about "Reasoning". Have you thought about what gives us the ability to reason? The ability to see, taste, hear, smell, feel?

That's where the essence of awakening and enlightenment lies imho.

 

You just used reasoning, to reason that reasoning isn't necessary.

 

See the obvious logical flaw ?

[Karl]

 

 An opportunity to give unpleasant energy to someone(or thing) else to carry or deal with. Results in joy.

 

If we listen to music, then we notice significant mood rise and if we turn the volume up we get even higher joy also noticing that its harder and harder to concentrate on some other activity, it comes more difficult to understand what i read.

Conclusion:

Joy is opposite to mental energy. Mental energy is result of bearing unpleasant energy.

 

Wacky ;-)

[Jonesboy]

Not wacky at all.

 

That is the darn point everyone has been making. The one you refuse to see.

 

Joy is our natural state. It radiates outward in a beautiful loving manner. It can be an everyday thing.

 

I have written about this every since I started meditating Karl.. Check the ayp thread "Are you happy".

 

You are the one keeping yourself from that realization with all of your local mind rationalization.

 

There is more out there.. You just have to let go to see it, to feel it.

 

If you want help, I am sure there are many people here willing to help you.

 

I wish you the best.. and maybe only one thread to keep saying the same things in.....

 

Have a good day,

 

Tom

Edited September 29, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Karl]

Not wacky at all.That is the darn point everyone has been making. The one you refuse to see.Joy is our natural state. It radiates outward in a beautiful loving manner. It can be an everyday thing.I have written about this every since I started meditating Karl.. Check the ayp thread "Are you happy".You are the one keeping yourself from that realization with all of your local mind rationalization.There is more out there.. You just have to let go to see it, to feel it.If you want help, I am sure there are many people here willing to help you.I wish you the best.. and maybe only one thread to keep saying the same things in.....Have a good day,Tom

It's very wacky for an amateur logician. I even tried to convert it into a working syllogism for a bit of fun, but it wouldn't turn into one no matter how much screwing around I did. Peikoff might do it, but not me.

 

You don't seem very joyful, but then I'm not a good judge of Internet mood :-)

 

If you were stuck in one state consistently how would you know what joy was ? Surely you have to have an alternative like sorrow to contrast it with. Sounds very boring. Like a monochrome room or music with one note.

 

What makes you think I have anything to realise ? I take reality as it is, in whatever way it is, in all its unique and marvellous forms. I do not look for greater emotional satisfaction than I already have. I'm contented with whatever comfort I have at whatever time I have it. What will you offer a man who has exactly the right amount of happiness and joy ?

 

It would be nice to have my bodily youth back and my eyesight, but not at the expense of wisdom. Can you offer me that ?

Edited September 29, 2015 by Karl

[Jonesboy]

Nope,

 

Just working on your wisdom right now.

 

The body maybe later

Edited September 29, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Karl]

Nope,Just working on your wisdom right now.The body maybe later

 

I learned in my days as a therapist that mostly you just work on yourself anyway regardless of the client, but you keep right on if it brings you joy, or whatever :-)

 

Body is in far more need. I'm going to run out of body before I run into wisdom. No good putting the best oil in an engine in which the bearings have already failed.

[dwai]

You just used reasoning, to reason that reasoning isn't necessary. See the obvious logical flaw ?

You assumed what I meant, even though I didn't say so. That is the problem with Reasoning

[Karl]

You assumed what I meant, even though I didn't say so. That is the problem with Reasoning

 

The very action of posting an argument necessitates the use of reason.

[Jetsun]

Is there any awakened or enlightened person through history in all the wide variety of spiritual traditions that have said they were awakened or enlightened through their reason?

 

The vast majority have suggested going beyond it. I guess Karl is the first one. 

[Karl]

Is there any awakened or enlightened person through history in all the wide variety of spiritual traditions that have said they were awakened or enlightened through their reason?

 

The vast majority have suggested going beyond it. I guess Karl is the first one. 

 

Neither first nor last.

[allinone]

how sperm will find ovum?

[Jetsun]

Neither first nor last.

 

So you believe you have the same enlightenment as the Buddha or Ramana Maharshi?

[dwai]

The very action of posting an argument necessitates the use of reason.

Where in my first question posed to you did I state that reason is not being used? I merely asked you - What gives you the ability to reason? Since you love logic so much, may I suggest the following course of possible actions?

1. Upon pondering the source of reason, it becomes evident that reasoning (the process) needs to be properly defined. What is reasoning? What does the mechanism of reasoning comprise of? What does it entail?
2. You laugh and say, haha..reasoning is self-contained, self-actuated and there is nothing that reasoning is predicated upon. If so, what then does it say about your locus standi?
3. You say, "hmm...I never thought about it that way...let me think it over and get back to you"
4. you say "I didn't understand your question, can you ask it again, in other words...try and make it more explicable to me?"

 

I'm sure there are other options too, but these are the four main options I see (logically speaking)...

[Karl]

So you believe you have the same enlightenment as the Buddha or Ramana Maharshi?

Unlikely.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Karl

[Karl]

Where in my first question posed to you did I state that reason is not being used? I merely asked you - What gives you the ability to reason? Since you love logic so much, may I suggest the following course of possible actions?

1. Upon pondering the source of reason, it becomes evident that reasoning (the process) needs to be properly defined. What is reasoning? What does the mechanism of reasoning comprise of? What does it entail?
   
2. You laugh and say, haha..reasoning is self-contained, self-actuated and there is nothing that reasoning is predicated upon. If so, what then does it say about your locus standi?
   
3. You say, "hmm...I never thought about it that way...let me think it over and get back to you"
   
4. you say "I didn't understand your question, can you ask it again, in other words...try and make it more explicable to me?"
   

 

I'm sure there are other options too, but these are the four main options I see (logically speaking)...

 

Reason cannot define itself. It is an inherent and inextricable faculty of a human being.

You are using the fallacy of the stolen concept. You are using reason, so, now you must ask yourself the self same questions. It is you that is arguing the case against reason, by using reason. Therefore you must find another way.