ChiDragon Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) 1. It's safe to say that practitioners of martial arts who start when they are young will have external arts first, then tai ji. This includes Yang Lu Chan. So are you saying they are all wrong? 2. Further, you've now diverged away from your original proposition, that someone who teaches both tai ji and gong fu can't be a good teacher. Are you now saying as long as they practice tai ji first that its ok? Or if someone chooses to learn an external art, or god forbid cross train in multiple arts, they are incapable of appreciating tai ji? 3. And what about the thousands of people who practice Wudang arts which have elements of external gong fu, tai ji, bagua, zing yi, and qigong? 1. Anyone can start Kung Fu anytime then go into Tai Ji. Thus one will know the major difference in the two. I didn't imply that anybody is doing it wrong. 2. What I am saying there is a big possibility, in general, that someone who teaches both Tai Ji and Gong Fu can't be a good teacher. Of course, there are exceptions. Anybody can learn to be appreciated. I was saying that if someone who'd started with Tai Ji will be more appreciated than those who weren't exposed to begin with. 3. Wudang arts are a different story. Wudang arts are will planned and controlled in their teaching methods. However, my scenario was based on someone who learned the arts from here and there. Edited January 1, 2015 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
henro Posted January 1, 2015 1. Anyone can start Kung Fu anytime then go into Tai Ji. Thus one will know the major difference in the two. I didn't imply that anybody is doing it wrong. 2. What I am saying there is a big possibility, in general, that someone who teaches both Tai Ji and Gong Fu can't be a good teacher. Of course, there are exceptions. Anybody can learn to be appreciated. I was saying that if someone who'd started with Tai Ji will be more appreciated than those who weren't exposed to begin with. 3. Wudang arts are a different story. Wudang arts are will planned and controlled in their teaching methods. However, my scenario was based on someone who learned the arts from here and there. But you are saying that some people are "doing it wrong" when you state that one can not be a good teacher if they teach both tai ji and gong fu……. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) But you are saying that some people are "doing it wrong" when you state that one can not be a good teacher if they teach both tai ji and gong fu……. Okay.... I had said that Tai Ji is Neigong(internal method); and Kung Fu is Weigong(external method). In general, most people either practice one form or the other but not both. There is a tendency for people who don't understand the significance of either one. Tai Ji will has a better effect than Kung Fu but it takes a long time to bring the art to its perfection. Kung Fu may be accomplished in a shorter time. If someone practices Tai Ji, then there is no need to take Kung Fu lessons. Hence, there is a chance that someone might think it would be benefited by practicing both forms. As the result, one may not have learned the special skills of each. In that case, I would not want to learn either form from the individual who practice both. That's what I meant by stating that "one cannot be a good teacher if they teach both tai ji and gong fu". Edited January 1, 2015 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 1, 2015 I can't stress enough how important I think it is to start with wei and then move toward nei... Indeed, without the foundation from working wei, the work in nei seems weaker due to being unstable and unreliable, if any reliable manifestation ever presents at all. I don't do nearly the hard form work I used to now that I'm in my mid 40's, but I have years of background in the hard arts that built a foundation and I revisit it regularly, mostly in the form of stance work. Deep Horse and moderate Cat stance are both used in one of our forms. My job has a very physical element and wei aspects to it that I love and can feel the difference in my inner work when I've been pushing myself with 12 hour days for weeks on end. Seems like a charge can build up an underlying potential. To just charge into Nei work without a good foundation of wei, results in the classic inverted pyramid. If gains are made, they tend to be unstable and usually the person involved it seems, has an inflated sense of accomplishment and subsequent defensiveness about inconsistencies or identifying the validity of any other path. One person in particular here has been displaying this of late, not part of this thread. But, having had a heightened experience, their paradigm is blown open, but lacking a foundation of stabilizing energy, they're unable to identify beyond their experience to relate to other paths and methods. This is what I think is behind much of the well meaning, but fundamentalist tendencies we so often find. I guess, what I'm really long windedly trying to say is... when I get a little twitchy, overly sensitive and moody, I find it really good to just go out and chop wood and carry water. Reactivate the bottom of the pyramid and that LDT. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
henro Posted January 1, 2015 Thank you silent thunder, excellent post. Your observations are something I have witnessed often with students who jump into the internal arts with no external background….. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 2, 2015 Thank you silent thunder, excellent post. Your observations are something I have witnessed often with students who jump into the internal arts with no external background….. I see where the discrepancy between our understanding. I guess we were exposed in a different direction. Fine, let's have it stand that way. Here is my final word though! If a car is stop running. I believe that the mechanic will troubleshoot the engine internally rather than checking the air pressure on the tires. Happy New Year. Good accomplishment from your practices. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
henro Posted January 2, 2015 I see where the discrepancy between our understanding. I guess we were exposed in a different direction. Fine, let's have it stand that way. Here is my final word though! If a car is stop running. I believe that the mechanic will troubleshoot the engine internally rather than checking the air pressure on the tires. Happy New Year. Good accomplishment from your practices. Good points!!!! The internal engine is only as good as the frame and support it is mounted on Happy New Year!!! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 2, 2015 san he dao the way of three in one ideally, all three in balance and harmony wei, nei and shen gong. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted January 2, 2015 Not sure how the discussion really relates to the topic but... I hope my mechanic listens. If listening isn't revealing, I hope my mechanic checks for things like appropriate electricity and fuel (energy and potential) long before doing something like going inside the engine. Just me, maybe. <shrugs> 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 2, 2015 Not sure how the discussion really relates to the topic but... I hope my mechanic listens. If listening isn't revealing, I hope my mechanic checks for things like appropriate electricity and fuel (energy and potential) long before doing something like going inside the engine. Just me, maybe. <shrugs> BTW It was only an gross analogy which is suffice for the current discussion. We needn't to be that precise to make our point. Thanks for your precious comment from a point of view of a physicist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted January 2, 2015 BTW It was only an gross analogy which is suffice for the current discussion. We needn't to be that precise to make our point. Thanks for your precious comment from a point of view of a physicist. It was from the point of view of a guy who has broken a lot of powered vehicles, actually. Some I've fixed and others I've paid people to fix for me. Cracking open an car's engine is the hard way to find out the battery is dead. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 3, 2015 Neigong(Tai Ji) Vs Weigong(Shiaolin)Marathon competition winner continues to compete.Tai Ji won: 7 to 4.Tai Ji vs Shiaolin Kung Fu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewhitetiger Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Some excellent Programs on the three major internal systems of Training. Tai Chi Hsing Yi Baqua Edited January 3, 2015 by thewhitetiger 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewhitetiger Posted January 3, 2015 This is very very similar to the Art I train 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) It is almost takes one's life time to master the art of Tai Ji and Chi Kung. If someone claims he knows and teaches most of the martial arts. So, let it be. Then I'll go to someone who is specialized in the art that I am interested in. Edited January 4, 2015 by ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 If someone tells me that Chi Kung has nothing to do with breathing, then, I will walk away speechless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewhitetiger Posted January 4, 2015 If someone tells me that Chi Kung has nothing to do with breathing, then, I will walk away speechless. um...I agree...what are you referring to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lifeforce Posted January 4, 2015 Question: Who I don't want to be my teacher ? Answer: ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Question: Who I don't want to be my teacher ? Answer: ChiDragon No problem. My friend, we still live. I will continue to give my secrets away. Of course, it may be meaningless to some. No harm done.... Have a pleasant day. Edited January 4, 2015 by ChiDragon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted January 4, 2015 The is one way to choose a teacher. Here are some of the things that is dead give away not to learn from this individual. If someone claim that he teachs 1. Chi Kung and Kung Fu. 2. Karate and Kung Fu. 3. Tai Ji and Kung Fu. Of course, this is only my opinion but I would use it as a guideline to choose my teacher. If a teacher got good Kung Fu in his Chi Kung, Karate, or Tai Ji, he be good to learn from... that there is a safe bet. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewhitetiger Posted January 5, 2015 If someone tells me that Chi Kung has nothing to do with breathing, then, I will walk away speechless. Can you give me an idea what you are referring to? I would like to know please. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2015 Can you give me an idea what you are referring to? I would like to know please. Well, Chi Kung is the Ultimate Method of Breathing(UMB) which is the abdominal breathing. No matter what one practices, it would require abdominal breathing. Otherwise, nothing else works. Any kind of martial arts, the student must learn abdominal breathing. However, Chi Kung is specialized in the abdominal breathing with a special requirement which is much more intensive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewhitetiger Posted January 5, 2015 Good god...that is not what I am referring to... I want to know why you said "If someone tells me that Chi Kung has nothing to do with breathing, then, I will walk away speechless." I am really curious where that came up in this discussion or if was on one of the videos... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2015 Good god...that is not what I am referring to... I want to know why you said "If someone tells me that Chi Kung has nothing to do with breathing, then, I will walk away speechless." I am really curious where that came up in this discussion or if was on one of the videos... I guess I didn't make myself understood. Well, Chi Kung is the Ultimate Method of Breathing(UMB) which is the abdominal breathing. No matter what one practices, it would require abdominal breathing. Otherwise, nothing else works. Any kind of martial arts, the student must learn abdominal breathing. However, Chi Kung is specialized in the abdominal breathing with a special requirement which is much more intensive. I am saying that Chi Kung is the Ultimate Method of Breathing(UMB) which is the abdominal breathing. If someone tells me that Chi Kung has nothing to do with breathing, then, I will not learn Chi Kung from this individual. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted January 5, 2015 thewhitetiger, If I understand correctly, ChiDragon believes that chi kung is entirely a deep-breathing exercise and that chi is a product of efficient blood oxygenation. I'm sure he would direct you to his threads on these topics if you wish to explore them in more detail. He also seems to maintain, if I recall correctly, that the 24-step Beijing system he practices and teaches is the essence & epitome of tai chi chuan, which has put him at odds with some of the other tai chi players on the forum over the years who have maintained it is a watered-down shell of authentic tai chi chuan systems from which both energetic & martial aspects have been stripped, leaving behind a form of calisthenics. This knowledge might help you to understand his perspective. Hope this helps! Brian 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
