Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential

[steve]

4 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I was reading on Tricycle what a teacher is and more specific what I teacher isn’t (by Ken McLeod). And I feel like this quote and that article only partially illuminate the teachers role… bc how I read it, it seems like genuine teachers are only concerned with awakening their students, not being their “friend”and certainly not their therapist. But I’m wondering if this makes teachers seem goal driven rather than driven to compassionately relieve the suffering of sentient beings? I just think people should also show the side of selfless sympathetic joy and genuine karuna/mahakaruna cause in my experience the spiritual path has been cold, lonely, and while profound and sometimes transcendent it has been totally alienating. I only feel kinship with fellow seekers, heart broken hermit/exiles/menschs/mahasattvas; ordinary people, Lao Tzu, Chaung Tzu, Thich nhat Hanh, Chogyam Trungpa, Sheng-Yen, etc. but I have had very alienating experiences with teachers who were either self-absorbed, unrefined or attempting to teach by telling me what they thought I needed to hear as opposed to what I was asking for. This culminated (again) yesterday after being denied an interview again with the local Theravada monastery I ve tried to build a bridge with.

 

on the flip side the I Ching has quite skillfully and successfully used what I now contextualize as Ruthless Compassion mixed with genuine encouragement. But my point is I think in many cases we ought to consider putting the “Friend” back in Spiritual Friend 🙏🏼

 

I appreciate your perspective.

 

I was fortunate enough to have a profound heart opening experience elicited by simply being in the presence of my teacher the first time I met him. It was nothing he said, rather simply his presence, his body language, interest, connection with me - it was shockingly powerful, although it didn't hit me until a few minutes after our brief meeting was over. He is extremely warm, engaging, and joyful but also knows how to establish clear and healthy boundaries. I once listened to a long talk he gave about selecting a teacher and it helped me understand the complexity of the relationship and his position and approach to the issue. It can be a slippery slope to expand the role of teacher/spiritual guide to include friendship on multiple levels, especially in the West where the relationship is profoundly different than that in Asia.

 

I often listen to talks by Anthony DeMello who was a Jesuit, an awakened being, and psychologist who provided psychological and spiritual support to clergy in India. He spoke about his own inner conflict in dealing with the priests and nuns. As a therapist, he was trained to employ measures which would ease their pain and suffering. As a spiritual guide, he would often recognize the value in allowing, even encouraging, them to go through deeper and more destructive experiences in order to help them to open. 

 

I think it is a very difficult role to play, a spiritual guide and teacher. Far easier to be a spiritual friend as there are far fewer expectations. One needs to be open and warm enough to help others to open their own hearts, yet discriminating enough not to allow the student, who is often in pain, maybe desperate and looking for a life raft, to become too attached or to have unrealistic expectations. The wrong relationship can actually become an obstacle or turn someone away from the path entirely. Not everyone is cut out for it and each of us needs very different things at any given point along our path. 

 

Good luck with your own search for more community. You'll find at least a little of that here. 

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

13 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I appreciate your perspective.

 

I was fortunate enough to have a profound heart opening experience elicited by simply being in the presence of my teacher the first time I met him. It was nothing he said, rather simply his presence, his body language, interest, connection with me - it was shockingly powerful, although it didn't hit me until a few minutes after our brief meeting was over. He is extremely warm, engaging, and joyful but also knows how to establish clear and healthy boundaries. I once listened to a long talk he gave about selecting a teacher and it helped me understand the complexity of the relationship and his position and approach to the issue. It can be a slippery slope to expand the role of teacher/spiritual guide to include friendship on multiple levels, especially in the West where the relationship is profoundly different than that in Asia.

 

I often listen to talks by Anthony DeMello who was a Jesuit, an awakened being, and psychologist who provided psychological and spiritual support to clergy in India. He spoke about his own inner conflict in dealing with the priests and nuns. As a therapist, he was trained to employ measures which would ease their pain and suffering. As a spiritual guide, he would often recognize the value in allowing, even encouraging, them to go through deeper and more destructive experiences in order to help them to open. 

 

I think it is a very difficult role to play, a spiritual guide and teacher. Far easier to be a spiritual friend as there are far fewer expectations. One needs to be open and warm enough to help others to open their own hearts, yet discriminating enough not to allow the student, who is often in pain, maybe desperate and looking for a life raft, to become too attached or to have unrealistic expectations. The wrong relationship can actually become an obstacle or turn someone away from the path entirely. Not everyone is cut out for it and each of us needs very different things at any given point along our path. 

 

Good luck with your own search for more community. You'll find at least a little of that here. 

 

Great post! I reluctantly and genuinely appreciate the value of doing a skillful subtle dance in figuring out the optimal teacher/disciple dynamic (or whichever variation it is). I just got set off into what I term “righteous rage” yesterday after yet another disappointment and disillusionment with a seemingly esteemed teacher/organization and how I ve felt like a dharma orphan for some time. It’s hard because if I  may paradoxically toot my own horn I’m unintentionally skilled at concealment at times as I’m semi-unkempt, introduce myself as having spent 3 years as a mental patient, I have a very difficult time explaining my dynamic with the I Ching to Buddhists and non Buddhists alike.”, have a damaged physical body…. Etc. this leads to (hopefully) well-intentioned spiritual teachers I have met not recognizing the student! This while not bad in of itself fueled my sense of isolation which doesn’t exactly work in favor of my bodhisattva aspiration. I just worry that teachers don’t aspire to be like Vimalakirti enough in being what is required and beneficial of them… Fixed notions are not typically a skillful means. However skillful means also have their pitfalls. 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[manitou]

14 hours ago, C T said:

True. Some can, some can't - such is life. The point of being on the cushion is as vital as being off, some say. I think the residual effects of sitting can accumulate over time and overflow into mundane life if there's patience and self-kindness, among other virtues that can bloom as practice matures. I've found that it's possible to remain mentally 'on the cushion' even in the midst of activity. 

 

 

Mentally on the cushion.  That's good!

 

I'm finding that once the Awareness has settled in, it's a matter of discovering and wearing the ramifications of the realization.  It's not difficult to stay on the cushion post-Awareness.

 

I discovered a simple thing last night that brings me to awareness instantly.  Telling myself "I'm all caught up!" (even if I'm not) takes edginess and anxiety out of the equation.  My default setting seems to be Hurry Up!  Like there's something I need to do that hasn't gotten done.  Just a general life anxiety, nothing specific.  I realize this has nothing to do with spirituality or enlightenment, but in a strange way it does, if it can quell the vibrations.  Once the vibrations are gone and I'm in balance, the spiritual dimension seems to appear on its own.

[steve]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Mentally on the cushion.  That's good!

 

I'm finding that once the Awareness has settled in, it's a matter of discovering and wearing the ramifications of the realization.  It's not difficult to stay on the cushion post-Awareness.

 

I discovered a simple thing last night that brings me to awareness instantly.  Telling myself "I'm all caught up!" (even if I'm not) takes edginess and anxiety out of the equation.  My default setting seems to be Hurry Up!  Like there's something I need to do that hasn't gotten done.  Just a general life anxiety, nothing specific.  I realize this has nothing to do with spirituality or enlightenment, but in a strange way it does, if it can quell the vibrations.  Once the vibrations are gone and I'm in balance, the spiritual dimension seems to appear on its own.

 

Synchronicity... 

I just spent the long holiday weekend doing a short personal retreat. 

The most important thing that came out of it was seeing how much effort I exert in any given moment.

Even when I think I'm where I need to be there can be a subtle me in charge, judging, evaluating, guiding...

Whether it is my work, family life or, as pointed out in this retreat, even meditation there are so many levels of effort and control that are more and more subtle. As you say, when we truly let go there it is!

[manitou]

17 hours ago, steve said:

 

Synchronicity... 

I just spent the long holiday weekend doing a short personal retreat. 

The most important thing that came out of it was seeing how much effort I exert in any given moment.

Even when I think I'm where I need to be there can be a subtle me in charge, judging, evaluating, guiding...

Whether it is my work, family life or, as pointed out in this retreat, even meditation there are so many levels of effort and control that are more and more subtle. As you say, when we truly let go there it is!

 

 

And that's also why it's such a luxury to be able to dwell in no-thought.  Letting the world come to us.  It is when we are free of controlling wishes or dynamics that we're able to field all dynamics coming our way.  If seen with clarity because we have done the inner work, the dynamics that made us who we are are seen for what they are....pretty much the input of others.  It seems that the only way to clarity is to unravel this mass of conditioning.

[manitou]

On 7/7/2021 at 3:53 PM, steve said:

 

Synchronicity... 

I just spent the long holiday weekend doing a short personal retreat. 

The most important thing that came out of it was seeing how much effort I exert in any given moment.

Even when I think I'm where I need to be there can be a subtle me in charge, judging, evaluating, guiding...

Whether it is my work, family life or, as pointed out in this retreat, even meditation there are so many levels of effort and control that are more and more subtle. As you say, when we truly let go there it is!

 

 

I did a short personal retreat as well!  The most important thing that came out of it was lessening a fear of heights.

 

I actually went to Royal Gorge, CO to zip line over the canyon, lol.  Just for that purpose.  Actually, I went there to walk over the bridge, which looked really spooky in the pictures.  It wasn't spooky enough.  It was at that moment that I spotted the zips.....

[natural]

21 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I did a short personal retreat as well!  The most important thing that came out of it was lessening a fear of heights.

 

I actually went to Royal Gorge, CO to zip line over the canyon, lol.  Just for that purpose.  Actually, I went there to walk over the bridge, which looked really spooky in the pictures.  It wasn't spooky enough.  It was at that moment that I spotted the zips.....

 

Good for you! 

[stirling]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:11 AM, TranquilTurmoil said:

Great post! I reluctantly and genuinely appreciate the value of doing a skillful subtle dance in figuring out the optimal teacher/disciple dynamic (or whichever variation it is). I just got set off into what I term “righteous rage” yesterday after yet another disappointment and disillusionment with a seemingly esteemed teacher/organization and how I ve felt like a dharma orphan for some time. It’s hard because if I  may paradoxically toot my own horn I’m unintentionally skilled at concealment at times as I’m semi-unkempt, introduce myself as having spent 3 years as a mental patient, I have a very difficult time explaining my dynamic with the I Ching to Buddhists and non Buddhists alike.”, have a damaged physical body…. Etc. this leads to (hopefully) well-intentioned spiritual teachers I have met not recognizing the student! This while not bad in of itself fueled my sense of isolation which doesn’t exactly work in favor of my bodhisattva aspiration. I just worry that teachers don’t aspire to be like Vimalakirti enough in being what is required and beneficial of them… Fixed notions are not typically a skillful means. However skillful means also have their pitfalls. 

 

I didn't feel I belonged ANYWHERE until I realized that, as what we truly are, we belong EVERYWHERE. I would reject ideas, paths or notions that didn't tally against my pre-conceived ideas and collected beliefs about how things were. As it turns out I was ALWAYS surrounded by dharma and opportunities to learn, and turned many opportunities away due to fear. As it turns out, holding tightly to our imagined limitations is yet another clinging to drop. 

 

My mental illness was generalized anxiety. My internal dialog was the story of a person who wasn't good enough, didn't belong, was unloved and unwanted, alone in the world. The stories the mind told me about who I was created a feedback loop, creating ever deeper, darker, and stickier stories. How to escape? Let the mind become still. Be as you are. Bring the mind home at every opportunity to where experience is fresh and clean.

 

To a realized being what you believe is unappealing about you as a person is not seen the same way. It is understood that this "universe" mirrors attachment and aversion back at us, continually pointing out where we are stuck. A teacher that doesn't live up to your expectations is a mirror that shows what you are holding on to or shunning. Seen from the perspective of prajna (Wisdom), ALL actions are skillful means. When teaching touches you where you are raw there is the most opportunity for change by dropping what you hold on to so tightly. It is always your story about how things are. That story is always what obscures things as they truly are.

 

 

[stirling]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:20 AM, manitou said:

I discovered a simple thing last night that brings me to awareness instantly.  Telling myself "I'm all caught up!" (even if I'm not) takes edginess and anxiety out of the equation.  My default setting seems to be Hurry Up!  Like there's something I need to do that hasn't gotten done.  Just a general life anxiety, nothing specific.  I realize this has nothing to do with spirituality or enlightenment, but in a strange way it does, if it can quell the vibrations.  Once the vibrations are gone and I'm in balance, the spiritual dimension seems to appear on its own.

 

I like that! It reminds me of a much shorter version of Dudjom Rinpoche's instruction for the right attitude for meditation:

 

Quote

...imagine a man who comes home after a long, hard day's work in the fields and sinks into his favorite chair in front of the fire. He has been working all day and he knows he has achieved what he wanted to achieve; there is nothing more to worry about, nothing left unaccomplished, and he can let go completely of all his cares and concerns, content, simply, to be. (From: Tibetan Book of Living and Dying - Sogyal Rinpoche)

 

[TranquilTurmoil]

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I didn't feel I belonged ANYWHERE until I realized that, as what we truly are, we belong EVERYWHERE. I would reject ideas, paths or notions that didn't tally against my pre-conceived ideas and collected beliefs about how things were. As it turns out I was ALWAYS surrounded by dharma and opportunities to learn, and turned many opportunities away due to fear. As it turns out, holding tightly to our imagined limitations is yet another clinging to drop. 

 

My mental illness was generalized anxiety. My internal dialog was the story of a person who wasn't good enough, didn't belong, was unloved and unwanted, alone in the world. The stories the mind told me about who I was created a feedback loop, creating ever deeper, darker, and stickier stories. How to escape? Let the mind become still. Be as you are. Bring the mind home at every opportunity to where experience is fresh and clean.

 

To a realized being what you believe is unappealing about you as a person is not seen the same way. It is understood that this "universe" mirrors attachment and aversion back at us, continually pointing out where we are stuck. A teacher that doesn't live up to your expectations is a mirror that shows what you are holding on to or shunning. Seen from the perspective of prajna (Wisdom), ALL actions are skillful means. When teaching touches you where you are raw there is the most opportunity for change by dropping what you hold on to so tightly. It is always your story about how things are. That story is always what obscures things as they truly are.

 

 

There is a lot to unpack here. We perceive reality according to where we are in this moment. I see your wisdom from an absolute perspective, but as someone who lives in a relative world (at least as much), I think a balanced middle way approach is what is best. To clarify, I recognize the opportunity in obstacles and rejection, the value of what Castaneda called "petty tyrants", and the illusory nature of identity. However, I dont believe glossing over human suffering, believe in fate and destiny whilst not fully fathoming mestaphyiscal law/truth so cant really speculate on your inferences and analysis fully. My homeless friend from Liberia always told me (not sure how to spell this) Zon Zigo! What is going to happen will happen! Every disappointment is a blessing. 

 

I believe that there is potential benefit to every karmic occurence, but idk if there is intrinsic benefit to them. And im not so non dual as to abandon the notions of benefit and harm altogether. And Im pretty good at accepting and loving and validating myself, but while some believe the past is an illusion, i believe regardless, it is always with us. i just dont want to "cash out" i want to keep giving, growing, and healing. 

 

i appreciate your thoughtful feedback friend.

[stirling]

26 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

We perceive reality according to where we are in this moment. I see your wisdom from an absolute perspective, but as someone who lives in a relative world (at least as much), I think a balanced middle way approach is what is best.

 

Definitely the relative and absolute always exist together. There is no enlightenment where the "world" goes away, but it is merely seen for what it has been - dreamlike. There is no transcending, OR bypassing what is happening in this moment. 

 

Quote

I dont believe glossing over human suffering, believe in fate and destiny whilst not fully fathoming mestaphyiscal law/truth so cant really speculate on your inferences and analysis fully. My homeless friend from Liberia always told me (not sure how to spell this) Zon Zigo! What is going to happen will happen! Every disappointment is a blessing. 

 

I'm with you about human (or other) suffering. Our compassion is to be with this suffering in the world. Fate and destiny are a stranger package. Are there a past or future we can "be" in, or are they merely thoughts that are happening now? 

 

Love the "Zon Zigo"! Conditions in this moment are ripe for what happens next - but we must remember that we are not separate from those events. What we are driven to do, and our interaction with these circumstances is part of the equation. It isn't fate, exactly.

 

Quote

I believe that there is potential benefit to every karmic occurence, but idk if there is intrinsic benefit to them. And im not so non dual as to abandon the notions of benefit and harm altogether. And Im pretty good at accepting and loving and validating myself, but while some believe the past is an illusion, i believe regardless, it is always with us. i just dont want to "cash out" i want to keep giving, growing, and healing. 

 

There isn't anything with an intrinsic nature, or quality, as strange as it seems.

 

RE: Benefit and harm - one of my favorite Taoist stories on the topic:

 

Quote

 

There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. 

 

The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. 

 

The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer. 

 

The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.

 

 

It is possible to see that the past and future are delusions, not as a belief, but as a persistent understanding. This might seem like an opportunity for some nihilist fantasy where a "self" might do as it pleases, but the insight is only available once the there is understanding that the "self" as we imagine it is also a delusion. These permanent perspectives together make nihilism impossible. 

 

Quote

i appreciate your thoughtful feedback friend.

 

I appreciate your frankness about your past difficulties, it resonates with me deeply. This kind of bravery and personal suffering is precisely what it takes to see through it. I wish you very best with your practice and intentions.

 

Bows.

Edited July 9, 2021 by stirling

[TranquilTurmoil]

"Misfortune is what Fortune depends on

Fortune is where Misfortune hides beneath

Who knows their ultimate end

Or if they have no determined Outcome?" -TTC 58 (LIn)

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Definitely the relative and absolute always exist together. There is no enlightenment where the "world" goes away, but it is merely seen for what it has been - dreamlike. There is no transcending, OR bypassing what is happening in this moment. 

 

 

I'm with you about human (or other) suffering. Our compassion is to be with this suffering in the world. Fate and destiny are a stranger package. Are there a past or future we can "be" in, or are they merely thoughts that are happening now? 

 

Love the "Zon Zigo"! Conditions in this moment are ripe for what happens next - but we must remember that we are not separate from those events. What we are driven to do, and our interaction with these circumstances is part of the equation. It isn't fate, exactly.

 

 

There isn't anything with an intrinsic nature, or quality, as strange as it seems.

 

RE: Benefit and harm - one of my favorite Taoist stories on the topic:

 

 

It is possible to see that the past and future are delusions, not as a belief, but as a persistent understanding. This might seem like an opportunity for some nihilist fantasy where a "self" might do as it pleases, but the insight is only available once the there is understanding that the "self" as we imagine it is also a delusion. These permanent perspectives together make nihilism impossible. 

 

 

I appreciate your frankness about your past difficulties, it resonates with me deeply. This kind of bravery and personal suffering is precisely what it takes to see through it. I wish you very best with your practice and intentions.

 

Bows.

I cant figure out the whole unity/multiplicity of atman/buddha-nature vs/complementing/merged with shunyata/emptiness/no-self/non-self so I cant comment on the view of no intrinsic nature belief/understanding.

 

However in my experience, when insight occurs in the field of mind consciousness, it is often Seeing the past with a super clarity inaccessible to intellectual knowledge or regular memory. I cant speak to the future, but i like to think my Oracle can! Maybe you can help deepen my understanding.

 

*Forgoes bowing, and hops around like a sparrow slapping own buttocks like that crazy sage in the outer chapters of Zhuangzi*

**Then bows!**

[TranquilTurmoil]

Too lazy to quote but fwiw I think my only real mental “illness” is radical clarity and reckless devotion… which some might call delusions of grandeur/magical thinking and a lack of self-awareness !

 

just to clarify  🙏🏼

[stirling]

26 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

"Misfortune is what Fortune depends on

Fortune is where Misfortune hides beneath

Who knows their ultimate end

Or if they have no determined Outcome?" -TTC 58 (LIn)

 

Right?!? There is a joke in there - they have no ultimate end and no determined outcome... there is no-one who knows!

 

26 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

I cant figure out the whole unity/multiplicity of atman/buddha-nature vs/complementing/merged with shunyata/emptiness/no-self/non-self so I cant comment on the view of no intrinsic nature belief/understanding.

 

They are different perspectives on the same thing.

 

Quote

However in my experience, when insight occurs in the field of mind consciousness, it is often Seeing the past with a super clarity inaccessible to intellectual knowledge or regular memory. I cant speak to the future, but i like to think my Oracle can! Maybe you can help deepen my understanding.

 

I agree that insight can often come in the guise of looking at past actions and seeing your obscurations. In my experience insight is: kind, has a sense of humor, is NOT "self" or "I" referencing, and makes definitive statements. This does not mean that the "past" that is referenced has any reality of its own,  but that the insight is reflecting on what arises as a memory/obscuration in this moment. 

 

The future is just a thought happening now. The thought that what you remember matches what is happening, happens now. 

 

Non-duality is always here, and has never not been here. It is a permanent, pervasive characteristic of reality that is always underneath the impermanent world visible at the same time, and not separate from it. Skilled direct pointing can demonstrate what it is. 

 

Non-duality is flat. Time, space, and "self" are flat. Time is NOW, always. Space is free of distance, so our perceptions of depth or separateness/intrinsic reality are illusory. "self" is a cloud of sensations that we ascribe locations to. Ultimately even the sense doors are empty of existence. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Āyatana

 

We can use meditation to get some pre-insight idea of how this all might be. 

 

Quote

 

*Forgoes bowing, and hops around like a sparrow slapping own buttocks like that crazy sage in the outer chapters of Zhuangzi*

**Then bows!**

 

 

 

[stirling]

36 minutes ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Too lazy to quote but fwiw I think my only real mental “illness” is radical clarity and reckless devotion… which some might call delusions of grandeur/magical thinking and a lack of self-awareness !

 

just to clarify  🙏🏼

 

 

Indeed! That set of terms could define the most centered OR the most unhinged.

 

(A sly look at Rumi goes here.)

 

Wisdom (prajna) is the same as being in alignment with the Tao. The "doer" disappears into a co-creation with the moment as it unfolds. Mental illness (IMHO) only exists where there is someone who imagines they have agency to NOT co-create this moment, or have intrinsic reality. The only real delusion is the "self"!

 

It's only magical thinking when it is a belief. 

 

My personal experience is that insight cured my mental illness, but am in no-way advocating for giving up meds, or counseling, which can be excellent tools for chipping away at delusion.

[TranquilTurmoil]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Right?!? There is a joke in there - they have no ultimate end and no determined outcome... there is no-one who knows!

 

 

They are different perspectives on the same thing.

 

 

I agree that insight can often come in the guise of looking at past actions and seeing your obscurations. In my experience insight is: kind, has a sense of humor, is NOT "self" or "I" referencing, and makes definitive statements. This does not mean that the "past" that is referenced has any reality of its own,  but that the insight is reflecting on what arises as a memory/obscuration in this moment. 

 

The future is just a thought happening now. The thought that what you remember matches what is happening, happens now. 

 

Non-duality is always here, and has never not been here. It is a permanent, pervasive characteristic of reality that is always underneath the impermanent world visible at the same time, and not separate from it. Skilled direct pointing can demonstrate what it is. 

 

Non-duality is flat. Time, space, and "self" are flat. Time is NOW, always. Space is free of distance, so our perceptions of depth or separateness/intrinsic reality are illusory. "self" is a cloud of sensations that we ascribe locations to. Ultimately even the sense doors are empty of existence. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Āyatana

 

We can use meditation to get some pre-insight idea of how this all might be. 

 

 

 

But are they the same thing? Is mahamudra the same as the emptiness of zen? The Nirvana of the Theravada? The Brahman of Vedanta? Is there one true emptiness? Creator? Is this a cosmic accident or divine plan? Is true self simultaneously realized with no self? Is it a progression with one being a deeper attainment than the other?Yes/no/both/neither… all of the above? I infer that their is Unborn reality accessible to everyone… but I have no idea if it’s really the same or not.

 

I have also read that not just past and future are illusory, that the present is too. Either way it is helpful to live in the now and not get lost in past and future. But how can me and you know if everything is not only empty, but empty of emptiness? And is suchness/tathagathagarba not essence?

 

I don’t mean to insinuate that “I” have the answer to these questions or that they are definitively unknowable, but I don’t see the utility in adopting these specific beliefs just yet, and when I can insight into them, I doubt I will be omnicient or have the ability to know if my truth I discovered is the same truth universally.

 

food for thought 🙏🏼

[manitou]

3 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

But are they the same thing? Is mahamudra the same as the emptiness of zen? The Nirvana of the Theravada? The Brahman of Vedanta? Is there one true emptiness? Creator? Is this a cosmic accident or divine plan? Is true self simultaneously realized with no self? Is it a progression with one being a deeper attainment than the other?Yes/no/both/neither… all of the above?

 

 

Yes.

[manitou]

So many wonderful things said by you two!  There is so much to chew on there

 

 

5 hours ago, stirling said:

It's only magical thinking when it is a belief. 

 

One of the better things I've ever seen here!!!!!  Beliefs are prisons.

 

 

7 hours ago, stirling said:

I didn't feel I belonged ANYWHERE until I realized that, as what we truly are, we belong EVERYWHERE. As it turns out I was ALWAYS surrounded by dharma and opportunities to learn, and turned many opportunities away due to fear. As it turns out, holding tightly to our imagined limitations is yet another clinging to drop. 

 

 

 

This brings to mind:  'all time and space are ours'.  As to always being surrounded by dharma and opportunity, that reminds me of when Arya was turned away from the House of Black and White, and she cried 'But I have no place to go!'  The robed monk said 'You have everyplace to go'.

[manitou]

21 hours ago, stirling said:

It is understood that this "universe" mirrors attachment and aversion back at us, continually pointing out where we are stuck.

 

It's wonderful to reach this understanding.  It means you are capable of stepping out of your conditioned self and seeing with clarity.  When a deep healing is done on someone, it's most helpful to look at what they're manifesting in their life as a first step.  That tells you where their heart is.

 

If your heart is wanting nothing other than Enlightenment, then it will appear.  Seek and ye shall find.  I look back on my own life and I see that my manifestations have always been to seek the truth.  A career as a detective - not exactly the same 'truth' as the ultimate one, but seeking the truth nonetheless.  That tendency carried over into my spiritual life later.  For that I am grateful.

[manitou]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

Non-duality is flat. Time, space, and "self" are flat. Time is NOW, always. Space is free of distance, so our perceptions of depth or separateness/intrinsic reality are illusory. "self" is a cloud of sensations that we ascribe locations to. Ultimately even the sense doors are empty of existence. 

 

 

 

It occurs to me that if it weren't for rotation, time wouldn't be marked at all.

[stirling]

On 7/9/2021 at 4:29 PM, TranquilTurmoil said:

But are they the same thing? Is mahamudra the same as the emptiness of zen? The Nirvana of the Theravada? The Brahman of Vedanta? Is there one true emptiness? Creator? Is this a cosmic accident or divine plan? Is true self simultaneously realized with no self? Is it a progression with one being a deeper attainment than the other?Yes/no/both/neither… all of the above? I infer that their is Unborn reality accessible to everyone… but I have no idea if it’s really the same or not.

 

Yes, as Manitou says... the same thing, just different ways of conceptual description which are irrelevant. They are all the emptiness of things with intrinsic existence OR Unity. 



A creator? Nothing is ever created. There is nothing and no-one separate to be a creator. 



No plan can exist without time. Time is illusory.



True "self" is unity. Unity is the complete understanding of no-self. 


The initial realization of emptiness is generally not the complete realization of no-self. It is entrance into college - graduation is dropping away of the enlightened "person" - a deepening of understanding. The understanding of emptiness SEEMS to deepen endlessly after no-self, but most often with no real way of explaining why it is deeper. Ultimately it isn't any kind of progression or deeper attainment, only the stabilization of understanding and the winding down of what is created/conceptualized.


Ultimately nothing is understood by anyone. It is understood that there is no-one to become enlightened. Everything is already enlightened. "Enlightenment" is what this IS. Everything in the delusion of separate objects arises from the underlying emptiness.

 

On 7/9/2021 at 4:29 PM, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

I have also read that not just past and future are illusory, that the present is too. Either way it is helpful to live in the now and not get lost in past and future. But how can me and you know if everything is not only empty, but empty of emptiness? And is suchness/tathagathagarba not essence?

 

The present is the only moment we can truly know. If we think that one moment is separate from another, we are the victim of a delusion. 

No person EVER knows that things are empty of intrinsic existence. The emptiness knows itself. 

As we discuss it, emptiness is an intellectual idea. As Adyashanti once said, "You have never had a thought that was true.". Emptiness is the fabric of all of this, and entirely non-conceptual - unity. It is empty of self-existence. 

There is nothing separate to have the quality of Suchness. Suchness is the essence of everything, not of any one or group of "things".

 

On 7/9/2021 at 4:29 PM, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

I don’t mean to insinuate that “I” have the answer to these questions or that they are definitively unknowable, but I don’t see the utility in adopting these specific beliefs just yet, and when I can insight into them, I doubt I will be omnicient or have the ability to know if my truth I discovered is the same truth universally.

 

This is all knowable... AND known, but not by any person. There ARE no enlightened people, in reality. I agree that there is absolutely NO reason to adopt these as beliefs - that is delusion. Much better to cultivate "beginner's mind" - which, done properly, IS enlightened mind despite any lack of insight. As Robert Thurman said to me, "Real meditation is not "practice" it is "ACTUALIZATION".

 

On 7/9/2021 at 4:29 PM, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

food for thought 🙏🏼

 

Ack! The enemy!  

Bows.

[stirling]

11 hours ago, manitou said:

 

It's wonderful to reach this understanding.  It means you are capable of stepping out of your conditioned self and seeing with clarity.  When a deep healing is done on someone, it's most helpful to look at what they're manifesting in their life as a first step.  That tells you where their heart is.

 

If your heart is wanting nothing other than Enlightenment, then it will appear.  Seek and ye shall find.  I look back on my own life and I see that my manifestations have always been to seek the truth.  A career as a detective - not exactly the same 'truth' as the ultimate one, but seeking the truth nonetheless.  That tendency carried over into my spiritual life later.  For that I am grateful.

 

Great stuff here! When we seek to "improve ourselves" we find suffering. When our intention is to understand reality as it is - without our preconceived notions - here it is. It feels too easy, and yet all it takes is seeing this moment as it is, without our attachments and aversions.

[TranquilTurmoil]

The Nirvana Sutra heretically teaches the doctrine of atman over shunyata. The Lankavatara sutra emphasizes shunyata over Buddha nature (I think) while implying they are different skillful means for different types of beings. I believe there is no “self “ but i much more so believe there is higher nature that has the qualities of insight, universal love, effortless compassion, wisdom, peace to name a few. That’s why I get confused. It seems that no creator is intrinsic to Buddhism certainly…. But is Buddhism definitively more right? In Taoism certainly the Tao is unborn but I’m honestly not informed enough to know if it has the same origin/development theory. I know this all sounds like intellectual speculation which maybe it is . But it’s also trying to sift through confusion to arrive at clarity… but maybe it’s better not to take the analytical route towards that 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

edit: in my experience, higher nature and ego can exist simultaneously which seems to somewhat contradict Buddhist descriptions in familiar with? I guess it’s the difference btwn shallow realization and truly dissolving the ego and realizing permanent liberation?

Edited July 11, 2021 by TranquilTurmoil

[stirling]

10 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

The Nirvana Sutra heretically teaches the doctrine of atman over shunyata. The Lankavatara sutra emphasizes shunyata over Buddha nature (I think) while implying they are different skillful means for different types of beings. I believe there is no “self “ but i much more so believe there is higher nature that has the qualities of insight, universal love, effortless compassion, wisdom, peace to name a few. That’s why I get confused. It seems that no creator is intrinsic to Buddhism certainly…. But is Buddhism definitively more right? In Taoism certainly the Tao is unborn but I’m honestly not informed enough to know if it has the same origin/development theory. I know this all sounds like intellectual speculation which maybe it is . But it’s also trying to sift through confusion to arrive at clarity… but maybe it’s better not to take the analytical route towards that 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

No philosophy is correct. These are all ways of looking at the same thing... perspectives, like facets of a prism.

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

It isn't possible to use subject/object language to describe something that has no defining edges, or scale. It doesn't HAVE a beginning or an end... no origin story. This is how it is unborn and undying.

 

Quote

edit: in my experience, higher nature and ego can exist simultaneously which seems to somewhat contradict Buddhist descriptions in familiar with? I guess it’s the difference btwn shallow realization and truly dissolving the ego and realizing permanent liberation?

 

The perspective after awakening is that you are an enlightened person. You now understand the nature of things, and yet still feel incomplete. This IS a contradiction of the complete (arhat) understanding. The idea that there is a unity, but you are separate from it is contradictory from both an intellectual understanding, but more importantly and EXPERIENTIAL understanding. As long as you are aware that even this insight you have is unsatisfactory, it will continue to deepen. Bringing the insight to all moments of life - awakening again and again in this moment - is the key.

[manitou]

13 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Great stuff here! When we seek to "improve ourselves" we find suffering. When our intention is to understand reality as it is - without our preconceived notions - here it is. It feels too easy, and yet all it takes is seeing this moment as it is, without our attachments and aversions.

 

 

I see what you're saying here, but I have to take issue with a little something.

 

When someone goes through a recovery program, they have to walk through themselves to see themselves as they really are.  The true suffering was the time before sobriety, the blackouts, the humiliations.  Improving ourselves through the steps of recovery was brutal, agreed - but most necessary.  Some suffering was definitely experienced during the amends process, but those very sufferings were the things that made us whole.  It's all perspective, I guess.