Wun Yuen Gong

Need help on Lao Tzu and meditation practice?

Recommended Posts

After reading the different topic here there is many minds talking about emptyness, void etc.

 

Im alittle confused on what type of meditation practises was taught or what type of meditation was practiced by Lao Tzu.

 

Can someone tell me what the differences are void, emptyness, calmness type meditation and the difference to visualisation type meditations. Do they reach the same goal, do they achieve similar things to occur?

 

By just sitting and being still will this bring any power that these guys of Lei Shan Dao or Lama Dorje have if its real?

 

I probably cant express what im saying right now, but as you can see im confused with the different types of med and there out comes!

 

can anyone help?

 

regards

WYG :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading the different topic here there is many minds talking about emptyness, void etc.

 

Im alittle confused on what type of meditation practises was taught or what type of meditation was practiced by Lao Tzu.

 

Can someone tell me what the differences are void, emptyness, calmness type meditation and the difference to visualisation type meditations. Do they reach the same goal, do they achieve similar things to occur?

 

By just sitting and being still will this bring any power that these guys of Lei Shan Dao or Lama Dorje have if its real?

 

I probably cant express what im saying right now, but as you can see im confused with the different types of med and there out comes!

 

can anyone help?

 

regards

WYG :(

 

This is what I've pieced together.

 

Emptiness, still, or sitting is supposed to bring a restorative effect. The mind is supposed to organize itself the way a computer defragments it's files and organizes for quicker access. At a certain point, after the mind restores itself, it will be able to restore the body. When doing emptiness, the body is able to restore itself faster and more efficiently than from just sleeping alone. It helps detoxify the body and escorts lactate out of the body faster after a hard workout. In a way, it shouldn't be called "Emptiness", it should be called non-clinging.

Mantra and visualizations are supposed to help in one-pointed concentration. The one-pointed concentration is supposed to help in maintaining a state so that a person can reach eventually maintain embryonic breathing and tortoise breathing <---this is where most physical transformation are supposed to occur. The physical transformation is supposed to better enable a cultivator to attain a spiritual transformation.

 

http://www.chan1.org/ddp/channews/09-1996.html

 

"The third level is called embryonic breathing. At this stage, the breath no longer passes through the nostrils. Instead, every pore throughout the body is breathing. The whole universe is like the womb of the mother, and your body -- the embryo -- receives oxygen directly from the environment.

 

The fourth level is called tortoise breathing. At this stage, oxygen from the external environment is no longer needed. Your metabolism slows down so much that even the heart stops beating. You are in a very deep state of samadhi. The body of the meditator becomes its own small universe. The energy inside the body circulates, supports, and nourishes itself"

 

As per one of the Shakyamuni's discourses, everything is supposed to happen in between the in breath and the out breath. When intent and breathing are unified and breathing stops then intent stops. What I get from it is that most gains are done during the pauses(do not strain to hold your breath). It may differ from individual to individual, I get a better feel of my lower Dan Tien pausing after the exhale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I've pieced together.

 

Emptiness, still, or sitting is supposed to bring a restorative effect. The mind is supposed to organize itself the way a computer defragments it's files and organizes for quicker access. At a certain point, after the mind restores itself, it will be able to restore the body. When doing emptiness, the body is able to restore itself faster and more efficiently than from just sleeping alone. It helps detoxify the body and escorts lactate out of the body faster after a hard workout. In a way, it shouldn't be called "Emptiness", it should be called non-clinging.

Mantra and visualizations are supposed to help in one-pointed concentration. The one-pointed concentration is supposed to help in maintaining a state so that a person can reach eventually maintain embryonic breathing and tortoise breathing <---this is where most physical transformation are supposed to occur. The physical transformation is supposed to better enable a cultivator to attain a spiritual transformation.

 

http://www.chan1.org/ddp/channews/09-1996.html

 

"The third level is called embryonic breathing. At this stage, the breath no longer passes through the nostrils. Instead, every pore throughout the body is breathing. The whole universe is like the womb of the mother, and your body -- the embryo -- receives oxygen directly from the environment.

 

The fourth level is called tortoise breathing. At this stage, oxygen from the external environment is no longer needed. Your metabolism slows down so much that even the heart stops beating. You are in a very deep state of samadhi. The body of the meditator becomes its own small universe. The energy inside the body circulates, supports, and nourishes itself"

 

As per one of the Shakyamuni's discourses, everything is supposed to happen in between the in breath and the out breath. When intent and breathing are unified and breathing stops then intent stops. What I get from it is that most gains are done during the pauses(do not strain to hold your breath). It may differ from individual to individual, I get a better feel of my lower Dan Tien pausing after the exhale.

 

 

:)

 

In between breaths, when that state is elongated, many things take place. Very good recognition in that. Mantra and visualizations are as you say. Good stuff.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:)

 

In between breaths, when that state is elongated, many things take place. Very good recognition in that. Mantra and visualizations are as you say. Good stuff.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

*and I respectfully bow towards Lin*

Thank you

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fantastic replies and thankyou both!

 

Just a few more questions, what is the breathing pattern of Emptyness or stillness meditation, Is it low deep abdominal breathing that reaches the Dan Tian?

 

WYG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fantastic replies and thankyou both!

 

Just a few more questions, what is the breathing pattern of Emptyness or stillness meditation, Is it low deep abdominal breathing that reaches the Dan Tian?

 

WYG

 

From the same chan (Zen) link that I posted earlier:

 

"According to your level of concentration, there can be four levels of breathing:

 

The first level, nostril breathing, is the shallowest one. Its meaning is just what the name suggests. At this stage, you are breathing through the nostrils about 16 to 18 breaths per minute.

 

The second level is called abdominal breathing. As your breathing becomes deeper, although your breath still passes through the nostrils, there are movements of the rising and falling of the abdomen.

 

The third level is called embryonic breathing. At this stage, the breath no longer passes through the nostrils. Instead, every pore throughout the body is breathing. The whole universe is like the womb of the mother, and your body -- the embryo -- receives oxygen directly from the environment.

 

The fourth level is called tortoise breathing. At this stage, oxygen from the external environment is no longer needed. Your metabolism slows down so much that even the heart stops beating. You are in a very deep state of samadhi. The body of the meditator becomes its own small universe. The energy inside the body circulates, supports, and nourishes itself"

 

I'm not really aware of how to build the Dan Tien or what is the correct location of the Lower Dan Tien because many traditions differ on where it is located. One tradition states that it is located a little over an inch (3 cm) below the navel, while another tradition actually identifies it as the lower of the three brains (the intestines).

 

I use the Chinese definition of the lower Dan Tien, a little over an inch below the navel. From what little body awareness that I have, it seems to build during the pauses rather than the inhales or exhales.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'Day Lino,

 

Thanks for the breakdown, i understand the first 2 methods, although i dont know if its full possible to breath through the skin and not physcially breathing using the lungs????

 

Does Lao Tzu mention running the micro orbit or this is not in stillness meditation as you are now using INTENT and forcing or guiding the chi around the body?

 

regards

WYG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'Day Lino,

 

Thanks for the breakdown, i understand the first 2 methods, although i dont know if its full possible to breath through the skin and not physcially breathing using the lungs????

 

Does Lao Tzu mention running the micro orbit or this is not in stillness meditation as you are now using INTENT and forcing or guiding the chi around the body?

 

regards

WYG

 

 

I found in my experience 3 general ways of meditating - one pointedness - emptiness and embodiment... These tend to mix as well...

 

Embodiment I find the most important - it's meditating with the body in your awareness - it's difficult for westerners - Lao Tzu I suspect had a much easier time with it, because he was embodied from the start - he wasn't living with stocks, shares, media, trust funds, skincare, fashion etc... for us to be still and be in the body is difficult and is a necessary step... it makes emptiness (no thought) easier to achieve...

 

Do not use visualisations, mantras or breath counting in embodiment excersises - sit still, let whatever thoughts come up, come up and then float away - keep your awareness on your body - notice what it feels like to breathe - just be aware of the sensations of the air moving inside of your chest, ribs, belly and lower back exapnding and contracting - be aware of your weight on your chair, the sensation of having your clothes touching your skin... Although I mention specific things, after a while you start to develop a sort of diffuse, peripheral awareness that is attending to all of that but not any one of these separately...

 

You can practice using your peripheral vision all the time - this helps a lot and tends to help embodiment when not strictly meditating...

 

Start to develop this kind of peripheral sense in your ears - become aware of sound (all sound - not a collection of different sounds)...

 

Obviously progress at your own pace... dont forcefully direct your awareness - dont concentrate on one thing to the exclusion of everything else - just let your awareness be a central, non-directional light illuminating what's going on in your body and mind - rather than being like a flashlight trying to find things in the dark...

 

Another way of looking at it is like you're dropping away all that is unnecessary and in the way of this pure, simple awareness (it's already there, it's just been habitually drowned out since you were born)...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"According to your level of concentration, there can be four levels of breathing:

 

The first level, nostril breathing, is the shallowest one. Its meaning is just what the name suggests. At this stage, you are breathing through the nostrils about 16 to 18 breaths per minute.

 

The second level is called abdominal breathing. As your breathing becomes deeper, although your breath still passes through the nostrils, there are movements of the rising and falling of the abdomen.

 

The third level is called embryonic breathing. At this stage, the breath no longer passes through the nostrils. Instead, every pore throughout the body is breathing. The whole universe is like the womb of the mother, and your body -- the embryo -- receives oxygen directly from the environment.

 

The fourth level is called tortoise breathing. At this stage, oxygen from the external environment is no longer needed. Your metabolism slows down so much that even the heart stops beating. You are in a very deep state of samadhi. The body of the meditator becomes its own small universe. The energy inside the body circulates, supports, and nourishes itself"

Very interesting. In some recent chats, I was told about reaching these stages of energy absorption - first breathing through your pores instead of nostrils...and then basically just energy from the "zero-point" vacuum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'Day Lino,

 

Thanks for the breakdown, i understand the first 2 methods, although i dont know if its full possible to breath through the skin and not physcially breathing using the lungs????

 

Does Lao Tzu mention running the micro orbit or this is not in stillness meditation as you are now using INTENT and forcing or guiding the chi around the body?

 

regards

WYG

 

Check tortoise breathing. Take note that the words "small universe" are in there. It is fully possible to be in a state where breathing completely stops (lung and skin). There is documentation all over the net about yogis being buried without air or put into chambers that were airtight for more than 8 hours.

 

I think that all of us here are YEARS AND YEARS away from a TRUE Microcosmic Orbit.

 

 

Very interesting. In some recent chats, I was told about reaching these stages of energy absorption - first breathing through your pores instead of nostrils...and then basically just energy from the "zero-point" vacuum.

 

It's interesting that you say "zero-point" vacuum. That brings thoughts of Boris Sidis, William James Sidis, William James, and their theories on "reserve energy" that is gathered from a void.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it interesting to see all the discussion on Laozi and his meditation techniques. To my knowledge there's next to nothing about meditation practice or technique mentioned in Daodejing. He apparently despised the cultivation that was common in his day aiming for prolonging life or achieving "immortality." As is clear through his work, he believed in wu dei, going with nature. He believed that one should live his natural life to the fullest and die a natural death. It's likely that he practiced some form of meditation but I'm not aware of any documentation of that. Is anyone aware of oral traditions handed down documenting specific techniques attribute to Laozi? I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it interesting to see all the discussion on Laozi and his meditation techniques. To my knowledge there's next to nothing about meditation practice or technique mentioned in Daodejing. He apparently despised the cultivation that was common in his day aiming for prolonging life or achieving "immortality." As is clear through his work, he believed in wu dei, going with nature. He believed that one should live his natural life to the fullest and die a natural death. It's likely that he practiced some form of meditation but I'm not aware of any documentation of that. Is anyone aware of oral traditions handed down documenting specific techniques attribute to Laozi? I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

 

 

Are you saying Wu De?

 

In all of Lao Zi's Dao De Jing, meditation is written all over it. In the essence of his teachings is to be still

in heart and mind. That is an outcome of meditation and contemplation. If one has proper contemplation of their experiences, then they will attain stillness of heart and mind. This is what Lao Zi is saying, to be still in mind.. how to be still?

 

No desire, no fame, ambition. Just do what you do according to conditions, and you live your life accordingly in society. If you want to change society, be the example for the people, but do not hold onto fame and fortune.

 

This is cultivation of proper views. Proper mental postures. Sitting by the lake, soaking in the scenery is concentration, but it is concentration on forms and conditions. Lao Zi is saying though you have these things and they are good,, labeling them good is equivalent to stepping on it with a dirty shoe. Saying it is beautiful is to make it ugly...etc

 

Meditation is within his writings through contemplative methods. Directly pointing to the meditation technique is not going to be food for thought, and let a proper mental posture take root unless the mind meditating already has a good mind of virtue and moral.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am doing a 3 day workshop in November with Ken Cohen and Master Chen.

 

Part of what we will be doing is a discussion about the alchemy of the Tao Te Ching.

 

link

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it interesting to see all the discussion on Laozi and his meditation techniques. To my knowledge there's next to nothing about meditation practice or technique mentioned in Daodejing. He apparently despised the cultivation that was common in his day aiming for prolonging life or achieving "immortality." As is clear through his work, he believed in wu dei, going with nature. He believed that one should live his natural life to the fullest and die a natural death. It's likely that he practiced some form of meditation but I'm not aware of any documentation of that. Is anyone aware of oral traditions handed down documenting specific techniques attribute to Laozi? I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

 

That depends on how what is your view of going with nature.

 

At some point, in our ancient history, humans and some of our predecessors hibernated during winter time. How do you figure some people come down with seasonal affective disorder?

Sleeping, hibernating, or meditating for three to five months out of a year would easily extend life past 130 years with significantly better quality of life.

 

For a person's body to be so clean that they can maintain tortoise breathing (Samadhi?) when they are walking (Macrocosmic Orbit?) about that should extend life too.

 

Maintaining a mind that's like a mountain? = Samadhi?

unstirred?

 

 

Are you saying Wu De?

 

In all of Lao Zi's Dao De Jing, meditation is written all over it. In the essence of his teachings is to be still

in heart and mind. That is an outcome of meditation and contemplation. If one has proper contemplation of their experiences, then they will attain stillness of heart and mind. This is what Lao Zi is saying, to be still in mind.. how to be still?

 

No desire, no fame, ambition. Just do what you do according to conditions, and you live your life accordingly in society. If you want to change society, be the example for the people, but do not hold onto fame and fortune.

 

This is cultivation of proper views. Proper mental postures. Sitting by the lake, soaking in the scenery is concentration, but it is concentration on forms and conditions. Lao Zi is saying though you have these things and they are good,, labeling them good is equivalent to stepping on it with a dirty shoe. Saying it is beautiful is to make it ugly...etc

 

Meditation is within his writings through contemplative methods. Directly pointing to the meditation technique is not going to be food for thought, and let a proper mental posture take root unless the mind meditating already has a good mind of virtue and moral.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

For us people that are too "Western-minded", I think it is a matter of cracking the language and intentionally looking for a clue or something that we understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That depends on how what is your view of going with nature.

 

At some point, in our ancient history, humans and some of our predecessors hibernated during winter time. How do you figure some people come down with seasonal affective disorder?

Sleeping, hibernating, or meditating for three to five months out of a year would easily extend life past 130 years with significantly better quality of life.

 

For a person's body to be so clean that they can maintain tortoise breathing (Samadhi?) when they are walking (Macrocosmic Orbit?) about that should extend life too.

 

Maintaining a mind that's like a mountain? = Samadhi?

unstirred?

For us people that are too "Western-minded", I think it is a matter of cracking the language and intentionally looking for a clue or something that we understand.

 

 

You can't find it in translation. You will get in through cultivation, and not expecting things to be what you

wouldl ike them to be in the Dao De Jing.

 

Dao De Jing can be taken directly from the translation, but that is only surface, and doesn't complete the cultivation of Virtue and Moral.

Then it can be taken as a contemplative method to look at one's habits, and change them without question, just simply putting down and understanding the causes and effects from one's desires, emotions and actions.

 

In this, one needs cultivation, meditation, as well as methods to recognize habits both good and bad, and put them down.

 

You can't get it from the translating and looking for certain context of language. If you are reading it, you will need eyes, if you hear it you will need ears.

 

With the idea of their being a Western mind, it puts an excuse as to why people in the west can't get it. It isn't about the direction and lifestyle, it is about what people are accustomed to without their knowing whether or not it is proper. One side of the world has one end of things, and the other side...the other end. They are both in competition for the best, but fail to realize that neither are best...only expressed parts of the whole thing.

 

Its in cultivation, not bias. Its in one's conditions, not emotions. Look at the conditions, and understand the manner inwhich they are in one's life. Once one knows how and why, one can see the impermanence of it all. That process is detachment, because afterwards there is nothing else.

 

 

:)

 

Peace,

Lin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As per one of the Shakyamuni's discourses, everything is supposed to happen in between the in breath and the out breath. When intent and breathing are unified and breathing stops then intent stops. What I get from it is that most gains are done during the pauses(do not strain to hold your breath). It may differ from individual to individual, I get a better feel of my lower Dan Tien pausing after the exhale.

 

Interesting -- in The Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna refers to liberation in the state when the ingoing breath merges into the outgoing breath and there is no distinction between the two.

 

The Kriya Yoga tradition of Lahiri Mahasaya (Yogananda's style) is also based on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should one do med after doing Long form of chi kung or before or before and after?

 

So med refines the min and Spirit and chi kung refines the essense and chi?

 

Regards

WYG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should one do med after doing Long form of chi kung or before or before and after?

 

So med refines the min and Spirit and chi kung refines the essense and chi?

 

Regards

WYG

 

 

It is good. I have done it since a child, and I am not crazy (depends on who's observing), depleted,

unhealthy. It is fine. Meditating, sitting meditation and lying meditation, are Yin practices, yet it allows

for the mind function to be directed to no place and that results in being able to focus intent and will to

the dantian of choice for further workings.

In sitting; the head is Yang, the tailbone is Yin. Yin Pulls Yang, Yang is opposed by yin. When the mind is unattached, bot do not exist, and thus reult in a feeling of that oneness everyone loves to talk about. But the feeling is only the begininng, because that state only lasts for a short time, and is only a result from reaching that state.. haha

 

Everything In Mind has that Yin and Yang quality. When there is no mind, there is no Yin and Yang.

 

Now in terms of meditating to attain enlightenment, after Qigong, the mind is easier to still. Keep focused on

breath going in and out and in between ;) and when breath slows to your undiscriminative mind, let it all take its course... and don't MIND the states you attain..they are not signs of mastery or sagehood.

 

:)

 

Peace and Blessings my friend,

Lin

Edited by 林愛偉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't find it in translation. You will get in through cultivation, and not expecting things to be what you

wouldl ike them to be in the Dao De Jing.

 

Dao De Jing can be taken directly from the translation, but that is only surface, and doesn't complete the cultivation of Virtue and Moral.

Then it can be taken as a contemplative method to look at one's habits, and change them without question, just simply putting down and understanding the causes and effects from one's desires, emotions and actions.

 

In this, one needs cultivation, meditation, as well as methods to recognize habits both good and bad, and put them down.

 

You can't get it from the translating and looking for certain context of language. If you are reading it, you will need eyes, if you hear it you will need ears.

 

With the idea of their being a Western mind, it puts an excuse as to why people in the west can't get it. It isn't about the direction and lifestyle, it is about what people are accustomed to without their knowing whether or not it is proper. One side of the world has one end of things, and the other side...the other end. They are both in competition for the best, but fail to realize that neither are best...only expressed parts of the whole thing.

 

Its in cultivation, not bias. Its in one's conditions, not emotions. Look at the conditions, and understand the manner inwhich they are in one's life. Once one knows how and why, one can see the impermanence of it all. That process is detachment, because afterwards there is nothing else.

:)

 

Peace,

Lin

 

It is still fun to try to "crack" the language the same way a thief tries to "crack" a safe :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is still fun to try to "crack" the language the same way a thief tries to "crack" a safe :lol:

 

:D

 

I know.. haha I am just being strict about it though. Don't mind my attitude, just mind

the direction of mind.. ;)

 

Peace,

Lin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lin,

 

Thanks for your help brother!

 

What is your practise may i ask, Systems, styles etc?

 

Regards

WYG

 

WYG,

 

All of my practices come from one thing...Meditation.

With this said, I simply call it Jing Xin Gong; Clean/Pure Heart Cultivation, because without virtue and moral,

no one will come to teach you, and one will learn nothing. Without a pure heart, Patient, Compassionate and Wise how is one going to know how to help others properly? How will they see through other's conditions and know which teaching to give in order to help the being attain?

 

What I cultivate comes through Buddhist and Daoist realms/teachers.

 

The practices include sutra cultivation (not just reading), bowing, visualization, walking, standing, lying, sitting practices, recitation/mantra cultivation, Qi/NeiGong, Shengong (various practices through movement, standing, sitting, walking, lying.), Taiji Quan, Bagua Zhang, Yong Chun Quan, Yi Quan Neigong.

 

Most importantly doing good things for others, taking vows of practice and cultivating them, cultivating selflessness according to proper conditions, cultivate Virtue and Moral.

 

The details of them are for my students :-)

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited by 林愛偉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you saying Wu De?

 

In all of Lao Zi's Dao De Jing, meditation is written all over it. In the essence of his teachings is to be still

in heart and mind. That is an outcome of meditation and contemplation. If one has proper contemplation of their experiences, then they will attain stillness of heart and mind. This is what Lao Zi is saying, to be still in mind.. how to be still?

 

No desire, no fame, ambition. Just do what you do according to conditions, and you live your life accordingly in society. If you want to change society, be the example for the people, but do not hold onto fame and fortune.

 

This is cultivation of proper views. Proper mental postures. Sitting by the lake, soaking in the scenery is concentration, but it is concentration on forms and conditions. Lao Zi is saying though you have these things and they are good,, labeling them good is equivalent to stepping on it with a dirty shoe. Saying it is beautiful is to make it ugly...etc

 

Meditation is within his writings through contemplative methods. Directly pointing to the meditation technique is not going to be food for thought, and let a proper mental posture take root unless the mind meditating already has a good mind of virtue and moral.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

I agree 100%. The questions being asked in this thread's opening and follow up questions seem to be focusing more on specific techniques:

 

Im alittle confused on what type of meditation practises was taught or what type of meditation was practiced by Lao Tzu.

 

 

 

 

Does Lao Tzu mention running the micro orbit or this is not in stillness meditation as you are now using INTENT and forcing or guiding the chi around the body?

 

My comment was more focused on the lack of specific methods or techniques discussed in Daodejing. Achieving wu wei in one's daily life certainly appears to be the way of the sage in Laozi, as you so nicely put it, Lin. This does not necessarily mean that Laozi felt this could be achieved or needed to be practicied through seated meditation, standing, qigong, taiji, or any other specific method that is currently in vogue. None of these are mentioned in Daojejing to my knowledge. Certainly, the principles in Daodejing are consistent with meditative practices and can be applied to seated meditation, taiji... My comment is more to clarify that we really have no idea if Laozi (assuming he is a historical character in the first place, which I believe, he was...) practiced any particular style or method of meditation or did he simply feel that one needed to cultivate wu wei in everyday life?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites