Taoist Ethics for taoist PUA

[Pietro]

If you play games you might get laid but you will never have a relationship.

Said mommy.

 

If you only knew...

I am right now slipping in a relationship with a women in Italy. I say slipping because is neither mine and her desire, but things are progressing in that direction. And yes, she knows I have other women.

 

Plato has a very beautiful gf, while I remember how he was loveless, and protesting (his posts were historical: "are all the good ones married") before discovering PU.

 

There is a huge number of PU who eventually find a girl they want to stay with and move away from PU. There was even a marriage where the book "the game" was recognised as being the "yellow woman" of the situation and placed on display.

 

You, see PU leads you to a place where you are able to give wondeful sex to women. From there it is easier to find women who want a relationship with you. Most women who you have sex with will consider if you could be relationship material. But if you pose yourself as relationship material they will either LJBF you, or (if they DO consider you as relationship material) not want to fuck you to avoid you think of them as sluts.

[Pietro]

But what does all the lying and game playing do to YOU if it is not who you really are? I think that ultimately it has to do some deep lasting damage. So is it really worth it?

 

V.

But that is also who I really am. I am also that cocky and funny, playful young stud, who make their head turn, challenges them, and fucks them for the whole night (thanks to taoist practices). Most of them are absolutely aware they are being gamed. They love it. They are not that all innocent, totally unaware madonna that you guys seem to imagine. They love sex, they just cannot show it.

 

While never having sex while desiring, and being tied to an irrealistic, impractical ethical system that does not permit you to be your (instinctive) self, does real damage. Makes you bitter, full of resentment, and anger toward those "bitches who fuck all those evil guys while not having sex with me, who am so virtuous".

[VeeCee]

Most of them are absolutely aware they are being gamed. They love it. They are not that all innocent, totally unaware madonna that you guys seem to imagine. They love sex, they just cannot show it.

 

While never having sex while desiring, and being tied to an irrealistic, impractical ethical system that does not permit you to be your (instinctive) self, does real damage. Makes you bitter, full of resentment, and anger toward those "bitches who fuck all those evil guys while not having sex with me, who am so virtuous".

 

I certainly don't believe that they are madonnas or bitches - I understand that they know they are being played. What I'm trying to understand is the long-term impact on you.

 

I will admit that this whole concept (PUA) is just not my thing. I've spent a long time trying to figure myself out (40 some years). I won't say that I have the whole thing worked out, but I do know this - I am and always have been a serial monogamist (sex in the context of a relationship). On those times when I have had sex outside of a relationship, I do not like the way it feels. This is not religious/cultural influences talking, this is who I AM.

 

I don't expect the whole world to think the way I do. Just trying to give a different point of view.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 26, 2015 by 三江源

[VeeCee]

what Freeform said.

 

plus, that stuff in the link Pietro posted... pfffffffft.

 

what an unevolved set of attitudes in there: men are better than women? women want men to pay for stuff and will betray them at the drop of a hat?

 

this is what we in the trade call bo -llox. which is a word which in this case implies a jaundiced and partial view.

 

Absolutely! I hadn't checked out the link before and was just responding to what has been said here. If I had done it before I would have passed right over this discussion. What a waste of time!

Edited August 30, 2007 by VeeCee

[mYTHmAKER]

Said mommy.

 

But if you pose yourself as relationship material they will either LJBF you, or (if they DO consider you as relationship material) not want to fuck you to avoid you think of them as sluts.

 

Ohh I'm crushed.

You pose and you pose and you pose.

So she decides you are relationship material - keep on posing or you lose it.

I always did well being myself but not eveyone is talented, good looking and fun to be with.

I guess some of you just have to pose.

[Wayfarer64]

I am lost with all of this labeling !!!

We are first of all human beings -not human actings or human pretendings etc... Be who you are and deal with yr reality as you are able - the rest is empty of meaning for me...

 

I have always been able to attract women and I do not put much effort into it... Usually we pick each-other up rather than they allow me to pick them up or her picking me up... as if the activity is passive on one part.-

Traditionally men are the aggressors -but allow the woman to act as the "leader in the wooing stages of a serious relationship... there is "courting" as it were -

 

The pick-up scenerio has a very different set of behaviors to it ...as the results are very different and the desires are very different.

 

each circumstance has its own essense just as each of us have our own spirits and needs that we hope to be cherished and fullfilled by our lovers...

 

Sex without a spiritual connection may be great sex -but it is not ( usually) much like love-making and it has a very different place and meaning in my life.

[Pietro]

what an unevolved set of attitudes

You thought of me as an evolved person, how flattering.

 

men are better than women?

 

read the phrase in its context, woman. Don't read what you want.

 

according to the standards that men hold for other men, women are inferior as well.

.

 

It sais nothing about how women are in an absolute sense. But according to the standards that men hold for other men...

I can trust a man. If he tells me something, I know he will do it. His name, his value, his identity will depend on it. Women tend to (I know it is a generalization, thus imprecise) act in every moment following how they feel. If they don't they'll feel they are not being true to themselves. So if I judge a woman as a man I would consider:

is she trustworthy?

If she sais something will she do it?

They score quite low. Sorry, it's true. We are different. We might score low on your scale of being honest to what we feel in the particular moment. We are different.

 

women want men to pay for stuff and will betray them at the drop of a hat?

For the first part just look at what happens in marriages and divorces.

For the second he seem to be speaking by experience. And for as far as I could check it is quite precise.

Also women (the data is in The Female Brain) start to pick up the scent of a dominant male ONLY after they are in a relationship by a couple of years. Evolved to betray!

 

this is what we in the trade call bo -llox. which is a word which in this case implies a jaundiced and partial view.

denial is not just a river in Egypt

 

Absolutely! I hadn't checked out the link before and was just responding to what has been said here. If I had done it before I would have passed right over this discussion. What a waste of time!

I'm sorry. I try to post that link as soon as possible in a discussion to sort out who is interested and who is too evolved for it. I can't force people to read it, I just can invite.

 

Ohh I'm crushed.

You pose and you pose and you pose.

So she decides you are relationship material - keep on posing or you lose it.

I always did well being myself but not eveyone is talented, good looking and fun to be with.

I guess some of you just have to pose.

Sorry, language issue. What I meant is: you interact with her as being relationship material. It is mostly about bringing out different parts of yourself. I think I clarified this about 10 times in this thread. But I suppose if someone just wants to read something else there isn't much I can do.

 

In any case it 's getting late. I am off tomorrow morning for 2 weeks of trips and conferences. Internet access will be spurious at best.

 

Be evil,

Pietro

Edited August 30, 2007 by Pietro

[VeeCee]

 

I'm sorry. I try to post that link as soon as possible in a discussion to sort out who is interested and who is too evolved for it. I can't force people to read it, I just can invite.

 

 

Pietro,

 

I'm sorry but I find the views espoused on that site insulting to women in general. Do the women you seduce know that you support these views? If not - then we're back to lying and game playing.

 

V.

[Pietro]

Pietro,

 

I'm sorry but I find the views espoused on that site insulting to women in general. Do the women you seduce know that you support these views? If not - then we're back to lying and game playing.

 

V.

You, a man, find those views insulting for women. Hmm, that seem to be quite complicated. How come I never am insulted on proxy?

 

The test of an idea is if it works to understand, and predict reality. If it is flattering or offensive this is totally irrelevant.

 

In any case the article has an internal consistency, the idea that women tend to act on the feeling of the moment (the here-now), at the expense of their word and integrity (atleast what we male would call integrity), and men tend to act more on their word and integrity, at the expense of the feeling of the moment (the here-now). I often discuss those ideas with women I have sex with and they find the idea interesting and often illuminating in understanding their own behaviour.

 

But this is general, there are many ideas from there and from a separate book which I suspect being of the same author (you will notice the article is anonymous). I often discuss them with my male friends, and when their girlfriends are over they often join the conversation.

 

But of course that would not be enough for you, you are back to the idea that you need to make a full confession to a woman before having sex with her. Why? Does whe make a full confession to you about what she thinks about men? Do you think all the women you had sex with thought only nice things about men?

 

You are stuck at the idea that you need to get along with your women. It is not a 1970 commune, your role is to fuck her, not to friend her.

[VeeCee]

[You, a man, find those views insulting for women. Hmm, that seem to be quite complicated. How come I never am insulted on proxy?]

 

Actually I am a woman.

 

[in any case the article has an internal consistency, the idea that women tend to act on the feeling of the moment (the here-now), at the expense of their word and integrity (atleast what we male would call integrity), and men tend to act more on their word and integrity, at the expense of the feeling of the moment (the here-now).]

 

That's what I find offensive - that you believe women are less likely to act on their word/integrity than men. I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're on.

 

[ I often discuss those ideas with women I have sex with and they find the idea interesting and often illuminating in understanding their own behaviour.]

 

I find it interesting that none of these women are offended that you question their integrity or call your own into account given your game playing.

 

[but of course that would not be enough for you, you are back to the idea that you need to make a full confession to a woman before having sex with her. Why? Does whe make a full confession to you about what she thinks about men? Do you think all the women you had sex with thought only nice things about men?]

 

Actually, I've never had sex with a woman. And I've known every man I've had sex with long before we actually had sex. No hidden agenda, no game playing.

 

[You are stuck at the idea that you need to get along with your women. It is not a 1970 commune, your role is to fuck her, not to friend her.]

 

I respectfully disagree.

Edited August 31, 2007 by VeeCee

[liminal_luke]

We live in a messed up society. Messed up women everywhere are attracted to jerks. I suppose you could have sex with lots of messed up women by being a messed up guy (or faking it like one), but what would be the point? Racking up numbers to prove you're the MAN?? Bedding lots of women you don't respect (they fell for your deceptive ways after all)?? Deep inside every scheming PUA is a human being who just wants to feel connected to himself, other people, and all of life. In eros matter and spirit touch. Can you have sex in a way that makes room for both the earthy lustiness, and yearning for emotional/spiritual intimacy within yourself and your partner?

[beancurdturtle]

[You are stuck at the idea that you need to get along with your women. It is not a 1970 commune, your role is to fuck her, not to friend her.]

 

I respectfully disagree.

Some things merit respect. Others do not.

 

It wasn't necessary to be respectful when disagreeing with that statement.

[lino]

[You, a man, find those views insulting for women. Hmm, that seem to be quite complicated. How come I never am insulted on proxy?]

 

Actually I am a woman.

 

[in any case the article has an internal consistency, the idea that women tend to act on the feeling of the moment (the here-now), at the expense of their word and integrity (atleast what we male would call integrity), and men tend to act more on their word and integrity, at the expense of the feeling of the moment (the here-now).]

 

That's what I find offensive - that you believe women are less likely to act on their word/integrity than men. I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're on.

 

[ I often discuss those ideas with women I have sex with and they find the idea interesting and often illuminating in understanding their own behaviour.]

 

I find it interesting that none of these women are offended that you question their integrity or call your own into account given your game playing.

 

[but of course that would not be enough for you, you are back to the idea that you need to make a full confession to a woman before having sex with her. Why? Does whe make a full confession to you about what she thinks about men? Do you think all the women you had sex with thought only nice things about men?]

 

Actually, I've never had sex with a woman. And I've known every man I've had sex with long before we actually had sex. No hidden agenda, no game playing.

 

[You are stuck at the idea that you need to get along with your women. It is not a 1970 commune, your role is to fuck her, not to friend her.]

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Vicki,

 

These "feelings" or "intuition" is not as "in the heat of the moment" or irrational as people may think. The "feelings" or "intuition" is supported by experience or some sort of teaching when somebody starts to search why they are feeling this or that.

[VeeCee]

Vicki,

 

These "feelings" or "intuition" is not as "in the heat of the moment" or irrational as people may think. The "feelings" or "intuition" is supported by experience or some sort of teaching when somebody starts to search why they are feeling this or that.

 

I guess I'm confused about which feelings or intuition you are refering to. Do you mean the feelings/intuition of a woman in making a decision regarding whether she is interested in a man?

 

What I object to is the idea that women are less likely than men to act on their word/integrity. Could be an issue of symantics. The way I as a woman interpret the meaning of integrity vs. the way Pietro as a man interprets it. Maybe it's a Mars/Venus thing.

Edited August 31, 2007 by VeeCee

[lino]

I guess I'm confused about which feelings or intuition you are refering to. Do you mean the feelings/intuition of a woman in making a decision regarding whether she is interested in a man?

 

What I object to is the idea that women are less likely than men to act on their word/integrity. Could be an issue of symantics. The way I as a woman interpret the meaning of integrity vs. the way Pietro as a man interprets it. Maybe it's a Mars/Venus thing.

 

Word?

Integrity?

 

If the guy at home isn't changing and adapting then the agreement is already broken. It takes two people to maintain any sort of relationship, not one person.

[freeform]

[in any case the article has an internal consistency, the idea that women tend to act on the feeling of the moment (the here-now), at the expense of their word and integrity (atleast what we male would call integrity), and men tend to act more on their word and integrity, at the expense of the feeling of the moment (the here-now).]

 

That's what I find offensive - that you believe women are less likely to act on their word/integrity than men. I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're on.

 

I actually agree with Pietro on this - ofcourse the word integrity is a very subjective one - so it needs to be clearly defined... (I'm not going to do this on everyone's behalf though)

 

This is one thing I love about women - their integrity to their feelings... man's integrity is to their word - feelings are ever changing and in the present - a word is stationary and kind of 'eternal'. Ofcourse it needs to be said "not all women and not all men" - it's more about feminine qualities and masculine qualities (both are present in men and women - and in different ratios in each individual). Margaret Thatcher had integrity to her words...

 

There are definite conclusive differences in the sexes - to say that the feminine is true to her feeling and the masculine is true to his word is not a value judgement - it's just an observation of an archetype. Maze designers can design a maze that is much easier for girls to complete than for boys to complete - and design ones that are easier for boys than girls. Boys and girls have different ways of navigating a maze - and it reflects on our different ways of navigating life. Boys tend to focus on one single, unchanging landmark, and they move around the maze constantly comparing their position to the landmark. Girls tend not to do that - they tend to notice patterns within the maze and use the patterns to work out (kinesthetically) the way to go... This has been tested many thousands of times and it's an accepted difference in men and women...

 

think how that reflects back to our integrity to our word and integrity to our feelings in the moment - a word is that unchanging, stationary landmark - and feelings are right within the moment and follow patterns.

 

Yes Pietro has picked up a sort of abrasive attitude to this and it feels kind of derogatory - but that's what happens when you deal with false yin all the time - your false yang starts to rise... I'm still of the oppinion that one must let go of their presumed control and start to become aware of all the tensions within oneself and others - not shy away from the dark and painful and just let it all hang out - just let go and let the intuitive part of us take back its rightful role as 'the driver' of You... and then magical things happen - you start to attract just the sort of experiences and partners that you need to grow - there is no forcefull effort there.

[Leidee]

Freeform - liking the whole "middle ground" thing you have going on! Methinks you would have a better chance of getting in to my pants than Pietro ever would. Pietro, the PUA, would get from Leidee SFA.

 

hahahah

 

[beancurdturtle]

Yes Pietro has picked up a sort of abrasive attitude to this and it feels kind of derogatory - but that's what happens when you deal with false yin all the time - your false yang starts to rise...

Freeform, I agree in large part with your words. Your take on gender based integrity is interesting, and worth some thought.

 

Personally though, I would watch out for beliefs like the one quoted. "If the environment presents this, then my reaction is that." It sounds a bit like "the devil made me do it." Yet I do agree with you that we should react "naturally" to things.

 

The trick to me it seems is in tuning our nature rightly - treat the cause, not the symptom - so that natural behavior is less knee-jerk reaction, and more appropriate response.

 

Once again, interesting "middle ground."

Edited August 31, 2007 by beancurdturtle

[freeform]

Freeform, I agree in large part with your words. Your take on gender based integrity is interesting, and worth some thought.

 

Personally though, I would watch out for beliefs like the one quoted. "If the environment presents this, then my reaction is that." It sounds a bit like "the devil made me do it." Yet I do agree with you that we should react "naturally" to things.

 

The trick to me it seems is in tuning our nature rightly - treat the cause, not the symptom - so that natural behavior is less knee-jerk reaction, and more appropriate response.

 

Once again, interesting "middle ground."

 

Yes - agreed

 

Yes we always need to let a bit of humanness in between stimulus and response - and even if it may not seem apparent, I bet Pietro does at least a little in person... internet communication is a heady affair.

 

Oh and the middle ground - the middle ground in how I approach it, isn't in between two polar opposites - it contains both - it's like an umbrella that covers the whole thing. - so in terms of stimuls-response - it takes for us to put awareness on the stimulus and the response and the internall process that happens in between - this is the initial phase - then you start to open the space in between stimulus and response and allow something to spontaniously manifest there (and that manifestation arises from a balaced belly, heart and head) - that's when magic happens... (that magic is the 'Big Me' coming through)

[beancurdturtle]

that magic is the 'Big Me' coming through

Hmmmm....

 

I think I'll have to try that as a pickup line. Haha!

[Pero]

LMAO!!!!!!!

 

Freeform, you pervert!

[Wayfarer64]

Freeform-

I appreciate where yr comming from on this topic-the maze refference is a very apt one and I have used the "female view" to problem solve -usually with a woman to help- The various ways that we humans look at, and react to life - is the rewards we may gleen from our interactions...

 

But I too have run into the lack of integrety that Pietro alludes to- it is more common in less introspective women than those who meditate and take note of their own "beings" as a regular practice - which is also the case with men...

 

So for me introspection and self analysis is the key to being true to ourselves...

and how we interact- which I hope is another path to the middle way...

[三江源]

.

Edited March 26, 2015 by 三江源

[VeeCee]

I actually agree with Pietro on this - ofcourse the word integrity is a very subjective one - so it needs to be clearly defined... (I'm not going to do this on everyone's behalf though)

 

That was what I was trying to say. I think that Pietro and I have a different interpretation of the word integrity.

 

This is one thing I love about women - their integrity to their feelings... man's integrity is to their word - feelings are ever changing and in the present - a word is stationary and kind of 'eternal'.

 

Okay makes sense, but that's not the same as saying that women have LESS integrity than men. Perhaps a different kind of integrity.

 

There are definite conclusive differences in the sexes - to say that the feminine is true to her feeling and the masculine is true to his word is not a value judgement - it's just an observation of an archetype.

 

Agreed - women and men DO think and act differently. Again, my concern was that there was a value judgement being made because of the difference.

 

think how that reflects back to our integrity to our word and integrity to our feelings in the moment - a word is that unchanging, stationary landmark - and feelings are right within the moment and follow patterns.

 

Agreed - however that does not mean that one is necessarily "better" than the other, just different.

 

Yes Pietro has picked up a sort of abrasive attitude to this and it feels kind of derogatory - but that's what happens when you deal with false yin all the time - your false yang starts to rise...

 

I can't speak to that, but I can say that my temper was starting to rise.

 

 

But I too have run into the lack of integrety that Pietro alludes to- it is more common in less introspective women than those who meditate and take note of their own "beings" as a regular practice - which is also the case with men...

 

That's the thing - there are both men and women with integrity issues. You can't just paint one gender or the other with a broad brush.

 

Thank you bothfor your thoughtful responses. All I really wanted was for someone to explain the concepts to me without being condesending. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

V.

Edited August 31, 2007 by VeeCee