opendao

Neidan vs Qigong

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To finish about the differences between Neidan and Qigong, I'd like to cite the Teacher of Single Yang:

 

Most importantly, the way of alchemy increases the primordial jing, qi and shen of the human body, as opposed to qigong, which can only follow the law of nature, whereby the human body always follows the order of creation and destruction (death).

 

Any qigong is just an accessory method in the preparatory phase of Taoist alchemy and any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way.

 

Link to a full article on our old web-site: http://www.all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

 

Again: any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way!

 

We discussed why, and I hope somebody understood the difference between Xian Tian, reversal process of Neidan, and Hou Tian, direct process used in Qigong.

 

Next week I will try to gather various thoughts about what is good Qigong, and what is a difference between ancient systems and modern Qigong, invented after 1950. It will also cover some questions to me that I couldn't answered yet.

Edited by opendao
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We get Post-Heaven Qi through respiration and nutrition (food). Thus, the source of Post-Heaven Qi is virtually endless, as opposed to the Pre-Heaven energy, which is finite.


Original energy is very subtle and elusive, and usual Qi is coarse and easily changeable. Yuan Qi is very hard to restore. To do it, one must at first find it in ones body and activate, and then begin the process of recovery. Restoration of the Original Energy is of an important concern in practice of Internal Alchemy in Daoist tradition.


Meanwhile, Post-Heaven energy can be restored relatively easily, with a healthy diet, fresh air, exercises of Qigong, which is quite simple as compared to Daoist Alchemy.


Post-Heaven QI and Pre-Heaven Qi differ from each other of in quality, information, methods of work, manifestation etc.


We can collect Post-Heaven QI by use of Tuna, Qigong, Dao Ying. But we can't collect Pre-Heaven Qi by use of abovesaid arts, as this requires the Inner Alchemy.


From my personal experience I can say that there really is a difference, and that it is significant, and practices of original Qi can be obtained only from the Teacher, but not from books or forums.

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We get Post-Heaven Qi through respiration and nutrition (food). Thus, the source of Post-Heaven Qi is virtually endless, as opposed to the Pre-Heaven energy, which is finite.
Original energy is very subtle and elusive, and usual Qi is coarse and easily changeable. Yuan Qi is very hard to restore. To do it, one must at first find it in ones body and activate

 

again? No humans can feel Yuan Qi, so following this method it's impossible to do that. See theory to understand why.

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Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said about a true Da zuo [真坐] and a false Da zuo [假坐].

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice. Wang Chungyang said about sitting in a motionless calm and silence 靜坐 [Jing zuo] and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

 

about Wang Chungyang. He taught Da Zuo as a preparatory method to quite the heart. Wang Chungyang learnt Neidan methods from Liu Dongbin, then he taught some people (Ma Danyang etc) these methods, but created a new system for monks based on Daoist, Buddhists and other methods. Now in many Northern Schools Da Zuo is learnt as a basic preparatory method, but it has no relation to Neidan, as shown previously.

 

Tradition-fakers (hmm, sorry for my French) don't know about it, so easily extrapolated single preparatory method to the entire Neidan legacy and think that it's a "main principle of a true practice".

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If sitting is not reccomended, standing might be what he's pointing at. The effects of standing on the body are hard to be dismissed.

 

Welcome to the Taobums, opendao, and blessing for having the heart to share the truth here! I am in China at the moment (汉语言文字学硕士生) and actively seeking for an authentic teacher in neidan/neigong, if you have any pointers please share.

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Immortal Zhonglí Quan was a teacher Liu Dongbin.

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said that meditation is a very important Inner Alchemy practice.
Zhonglí Quan said about sitting cross-legged [盘膝坐] in a motionless calmness and silence [静坐]:

 

1) "是以日出当用艮卦之时,以养元气。
勿以利名动其心,勿以好恶介其意。
披衣静坐,以养其气;
绝念忘情,微作引导。

手脚递互,伸缩三五下,使四体之气齐生,内保元气上升以朝于心府"

2) "又于日入当用干卦之时,以聚元气。
入室静坐,咽气搐外肾"

3) "行金液还丹,当于深密幽房,风日凡人不到之处,烧香迭掌盘膝坐"

4) "终日静坐,其炼如前"

5) "静坐忘机以行此法"

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1) "是以日出当用艮卦之时,以养元气。
勿以利名动其心,勿以好恶介其意。
Do not let rich and famous to tempt your heart, do not let good or evil enter your conscience.

披衣静坐,以养其气;
Zazen with a clothes lay on the shoulders to maintain the Chi.
绝念忘情,微作引导。
Get rid of desire and forget your feelings as a good start.

手脚递互,伸缩三五下,使四体之气齐生,内保元气上升以朝于心府"
Cross your hands and legs(Lotus position) ......

Mutually alternate the arms and legs, extend and contract three to five times. Let the Chi to be produced in the arms and legs. Internally, keep the Yuan Chi ascend toward the heart.



盘膝坐 = Lotus position

Edited by ChiDragon
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手脚递互,伸缩三五下,使四体之气齐生,内保元气上升以朝于心府"

Cross your hands and legs(Lotus position) .......... let the Chi to be produced in the arms and legs. Internally, keep the Yuan Chi ascend toward the heart.

 

 

盘膝坐 = Lotus position

 

just curious why you skipped 伸缩三五下?

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Immortal Zhonglí Quan was a teacher Liu Dongbin.

 

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said that meditation is a very important Inner Alchemy practice.

 

 

quote pls where he said that Da Zuo "is a very important Inner Alchemy practice".

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Welcome to the Taobums, opendao, and blessing for having the heart to share the truth here! I am in China at the moment (汉语言文字学硕士生) and actively seeking for an authentic teacher in neidan/neigong, if you have any pointers please share.

 

I remember about you, awaiting a response from my teacher. For now I can just say that all real schools are very closed, and don't accept foreigners.

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披衣静坐,以养其气

披衣 - clothes lay on the shoulders

静坐 - meditation, Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

以 - to use

养 - nourishing

其 - its, his/her

气 - Qi

 

终日静坐,其炼如前"

终日 - all day long

静坐 - meditation, Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

其 - its

炼 - to refine, to smelt

如 - such as
前 - before

 

以聚元气。 入室静坐

以 - to use

聚 - to congregate / to assemble / to gather together

元气 - Yuan Qi, Original Qi

入 - to enter
室 - room

静坐 - meditation, Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

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打坐 – Dazuo - sit in meditation, sit crosslegged

静坐 – Jinzuo - to meditate / sitting in a motionless calmness and silence / sit quietly

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Welcome to the Taobums, opendao, and blessing for having the heart to share the truth here! I am in China at the moment (汉语言文字学硕士生) and actively seeking for an authentic teacher in neidan/neigong, if you have any pointers please share.

Visit us on Wudang Mountain at the Wudang Taoist Kung Fu Academy next to Purple Heaven Palace. We have foreigners from around the world that come and go. Classes for internal alchemy are more expensive but given the exchange rate on the dollar its affordable. Good Luck

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金液还丹,当于深密幽房,烧香迭掌盘膝坐

 

金 - golden
液 - fluid
还 - to return
丹 - elixir

 

当 - to be
于 - in
深 - deep
密 - secret
幽 - quiet
房 - room / house

 

烧 - to burn

香 - fragrant sticks
迭掌 - to clasp hands / to put one's palms together
盘膝坐 - sitting cross-legged

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just curious why you skipped 伸缩三五下?

 

It is because I am not sure what the 三五(3 and 5) are referring to.

Edited by ChiDragon

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I remember about you, awaiting a response from my teacher. For now I can just say that all real schools are very closed, and don't accept foreigners.

 

Oh I thought you just missed it :blush:

Thank you for making the effort of asking your 师父

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Visit us on Wudang Mountain at the Wudang Taoist Kung Fu Academy next to Purple Heaven Palace. We have foreigners from around the world that come and go. Classes for internal alchemy are more expensive but given the exchange rate on the dollar its affordable. Good Luck

 

Thanks, I will visit Wudang prolly next Spring.

Don't want to come across as a blunt knucklehead, but as far as I know, real teachings are not to be sold, not sure what exactly you guys teach to foreigners. Expensive is not okay either, I'm just a student, not a businessman ^_^

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打坐 – Dazuo - sit in meditation, sit crosslegged

静坐 – Jinzuo - to meditate / sitting in a motionless calmness and silence / sit quietly

The difference in the two is:

The former is in a lotus position, the latter may not have to be in the lotus position. Thus one may sit on a chair. However, one must keep in mind, deep breathing should be taken place while sitting. That is the whole purpose of meditation.

Edited by ChiDragon

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It is because I am not sure what the 三五(3 and 5) are referring to.

 

手脚递互,伸缩三五下

 

手脚 - hand and leg

递 - / to pass on / to gradually increase or decrease

互 - mutual

 

伸缩 - to lengthen and shorten

三五下 - three or five times

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手脚递互,伸缩三五下

 

手脚 - hand and leg

递 - / to pass on / to gradually increase or decrease

互 - mutual

 

伸缩 - to lengthen and shorten

三五下 - three or five times

 

Thanks Vitalii. You know your Chinese well. It was the simplified character, 递, that threw me off. Now it has come to my senses.

 

手脚递互,伸缩三五下

Mutually alternate the arms and legs, extend and contract (them) three to five times.

 

Edited by ChiDragon
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Let's continue.
In spite of the differences, all _real_ Neidan schools share the same principles and theories.
We've already discussed shortly Houtian and Xiantian.
Another important thing is about 2 major parts of Neidan work:
1. Ming Gong
2. Xing Gong
Ming is "fate" and Yuan Qi.
Xing is "nature" and Yuan Shen.
Usually a student starts with some preparatory exercises, that resemble Qigong and Dazuo. Still even here usually there is a difference in the mechanism, Neidan schools prefer Xiantian here because it's much effective.
Then a person uses secret Ming methods to replenish Yuan Jing and refine it to Yuan Qi. This is the phase of Ming.
Next is Xing work, where Yuan Qi is used to power up Shen-Spirit and transform it to immortal Yang Shen.
Preventing quotes from Quanzhen teachings, I should say that though northern schools declare "Xing then Ming" approach, in reality their initial phase is Xin (heart) work, that has Da Zuo as one of the method. But even there Da Zuo has many details, not described in books.
Obviously, no "meditation as the main method".
And it's a big mistake to think that Ming is Body or Ming can be restored in the meditation. MING is NOT A BODY.
MING cannot be restored using MEDITATION. MING cannot be restored using physical or Qigong exercises. Attentive readers can already understand why. Stubborn people without De will continue to insist on false methods.
Another stupid mistake is to rely on books. First, Ming methods are covered just in theory and it's impossible to guess, how it works. Second, different books assumes different things. For example, some books can discuss Neidan in terms of Waidan (external alchemy), or vice versa, without any tip about the real subject. How can somebody understand it without a teacher? That's why lineages and teachers are so important in Neidan - it's a guarantee that you won't be fooled.
I described shortly the correct method of Neidan. Comparing with Qigong, we can see that Qigong cannot be used beyond the preparatory phase of Neidan.
Teacher of Single Yang:

 

 

Any qigong is just an accessory method in the preparatory phase of Taoist alchemy and any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way.

 

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Thanks Vitalii. You know your Chinese well. It was the simplified character, 递, that threw me off. Now it has come to my senses.

 

 

Thank you, ChiDragon

I participate in the creation of the largest Chinese-Russian and Russian-Chinese online dictionaries BKRS and Zhonga.

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I don't mind if I enter rebirth in a similar surroundings. No being is created for the purpose of that being. All beings are created for the purposes of other beings. As an Immortal or human being, that's not going to change, so I might as well live my days for what they are rather than trading them in for an unreliable promise on the future. Sorry if that offends your path, but your faith ought to be strong enough not to depend on another person having faith in it.

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Let's continue.
In spite of the differences, all _real_ Neidan schools share the same principles and theories.
We've already discussed shortly Houtian and Xiantian.
Another important thing is about 2 major parts of Neidan work:
1. Ming Gong
2. Xing Gong

 

Ming is "fate" and Yuan Qi.
Xing is "nature" and Yuan Shen.

 

Did you tell me that your teacher had verified all these of what you are feeding us......???

Edited by ChiDragon
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Did you tell me that your teacher had verified all these of what you are feeding us......???

 

ChiDragon, you can read such things in any popular Chinese book about Neidan. If you see anything that bothers you, we can discuss, but honestly I am not feeding you, your cup is already full.

Edited by opendao

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